Damn, i love that episode. Mainly because Garak is my favorite ST character but episode in general is excellent
Television Star Trek
- Thread starter Raoul
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Sadly Rick Berman hated DS9 but Ira Steven Behr was basically allowed to do what he wanted with the Dominion War because Berman was busy on his pet project Voyager which he saw as a far better programme.
There's loads of stuff about Berman being massively problematic - vetoing gay characters, insisting female characters are sexed up (see Seven of Nine) and other horribles...
Here's a good twitter thread on a bad man:
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What I always find surprising is that Garak is only in 37 of the 176 episodes but Andrew Robinson (and Alexander Siddig) do such a great job of building the character that he basically is DS9 for me.
Cheers mate didn't know any of that.
Deep Space Nine was ahead of it's time and I'd been hoping they would remaster it in HD when I seen they did the Next Generation but it doesn't look like it's happening.
DS9 was the best series for sure.
I feel the last season lost it's way a little and if done correctly, the show could have had another couple of seasons, but all good things.......
I feel the last season lost it's way a little and if done correctly, the show could have had another couple of seasons, but all good things.......
The sexing up of characters didn't seem to be an issue in that era, especially given what Roddenberry did with female characters in the 60s. I don't really recall much of that during TNG, DS9, and Enterprise (excepting Seven and T'pol of course).
If you think DS9 was ahead of its time then have a look at Babylon 5, which btw aired at the same time as DS9.
I watched it back in the day and that's what got me into DS9. Rewatched B5 recently on Amazon in HD it's still a brilliant show, effects are a bit ropey but it was the 90's.
There’s a lot less in DSG to be sure but Kira Nerys’s costume gets tighter after season one to sex her up a bit.
It’s all over in TNG, Deanna Tori’s costumes are definitely sexed up.
I’ve been watching the odd Voyager episode here and there recently. It’s always been my favourite series.
It’s weird watching scenes with Janeway and Seven knowing how difficult Kate Mulgrew made Jeri Ryan’s life when she came into the show.
Anyone see the original pilot clips with the French-Canadian actress they originally had for Janeway? They made a good choice going with Mulgrew.
It’s weird watching scenes with Janeway and Seven knowing how difficult Kate Mulgrew made Jeri Ryan’s life when she came into the show.
Anyone see the original pilot clips with the French-Canadian actress they originally had for Janeway? They made a good choice going with Mulgrew.
Really? Got a link, i'm curious now.
Ah interesting, must admit I was fairly young when Voyager was on and I imagine the character of Seven of Nine was directed at my age range. She was a great character, but feck me her costumes in the early seasons were, totally unnecessary looking at it now. I can see the angle Mulgrews coming from.
Can remember a few gags about Borg implants at the time.
Mulgrew felt a bit threatened imo, seeing as she was the female lead and didn’t like the idea of an attractive female character to be brought in to steal her thunder. Apparently she made Ryan’s life miserable at times.
Mulgrew was fantastic as Janeway though. She felt like a captain from the beginning.
Season 4 trailer for Discovery is out.
The Ferengi seem to be in the new Federation. It'll be interesting to see how much their culture has evolved in the centuries since DS9.
So, Ive been rewatching Babylon 5. It was on sale for 30 quid on Apple store, so figured why not. I’ve not seen it since it first aired back in the 90s. My reason for posting in here is that I’m on the last episode of season 4 and there’s a section that takes place 1000 years in the future. In that time period humans have lost the ability to travel in space after an event called “the burn”. I couldn’t believe it. I’m watching B5 from 20 odd years ago and getting the plot for season 3 of discovery. fecking shameless thievery.
Didn’t they already rob the plot for season 1 from a game
Discovery has been pulled from Netflix permanently. Utterly fecking stupid decision by paramount who are moving discovery to their streaming service permanently. As there isnt a European release of paramount + in europe till sometime in 2022, there wont be an discovery to watch until then.
Crazy decision, going to increase piracy of this show massively.
I found the season 4 opener a bit of a boring.
I've been watching some Voyager and DS9 recently. Both such good shows. I've always found Voyager to be my favorite but DS9 has some fantastic episodes. It's amazing that they made a Star Trek show based around a space station work.
Babylon 5 was the shit. Absolutely loved that show.
So did the "writers" of Star Trek Discovery it seems...
Have to say, I forgot just how well the actors played off each other in B5. Especially Londo and G'kar. Their final scene together was rough to watch. For a show that didnt have a lot of budget, it sure squeezed every drop of greatness out of what it did have. With the reboot coming along soon, these two in particular are going to be a hard act to follow. Comedy, drama, and even pulling a tear out of your eye every now and again. Hopefully its not all angry crying and bullshit mcguffins.
I found Michael Burnham the most insufferable, self-righteous character (and what is with all this po-faced line delivery as if they're playing the classics? The brilliant Pat Stew has a lot to answer for) ever in ST, and that takes some going.
I ditched DISCOVERY ages ago and I love Star Trek. I hope THESE ARE THE VOYAGES is a return to traditional ST story-telling as hinted.
I ditched DISCOVERY ages ago and I love Star Trek. I hope THESE ARE THE VOYAGES is a return to traditional ST story-telling as hinted.
So good.
The reboot of Babylon 5, due next year with the original creator of the show should be interesting. He said he wont cover the same story arc so I guess it will be Star Trek TNG equivalent to Star Trek TOS.
The "writers" of DS9 ripped off every single element of B5 from beginning to end.So did the "writers" of Star Trek Discovery it seems...
Have to say, I forgot just how well the actors played off each other in B5. Especially Londo and G'kar. Their final scene together was rough to watch. For a show that didnt have a lot of budget, it sure squeezed every drop of greatness out of what it did have. With the reboot coming along soon, these two in particular are going to be a hard act to follow. Comedy, drama, and even pulling a tear out of your eye every now and again. Hopefully its not all angry crying and bullshit mcguffins.
They pilfered the space station concept but, in fairness, the writers of DS9 did a bloody good job of pilfering. Such an underrated show.
I never knew this. Most cool.
that would have been quite the trick, since ds9 started one full year before B5. Not including the TV movie that aired in February of 93. A month and a half after ds9 started its first season. I wonder if you might be in the U.K.? As o used to hold this belief as well, seeing as ds9 didn’t arrive until 95 on our shores. I remember lots of things like the white star being introduced before the defiant. But in reality, it was the other way around.
The search part 1 aired in the US September 26th 1994. The first whitestar didn’t show up until 95.
I prefer to think of ds9 and B5 as competitive tv shows that made each other better. I have no doubts ideas were pilfered from each show. But the quality of both shows was outstanding. Something that can not be said about aptly named STD.
J. Michael Straczynski pitched Babylon 5 to Paramount before they ever even started making Deep Space 9. If the network had signed the contract there and then, JMS would have been the showrunner on the Star Trek series.
Instead, Paramount turned him down at the time. But then later conveniently came up with their own Sci Fi series which happened to be almost identical in every way.
B5 was written first but couldn't get the funding to start filming early on. DS9 was written later on (only after the network had read the script for B5) but started filming earlier because Paramount had the money to beat JMS to the punch.
- Both take place on a space station.
- Both commanding officers start out as commanders, not captains.
- Both series later have their lead be a captain.
- Both stations are located next to a wormhole-like structure: Babylon 5’s jump-gate vs. DS9’s wormhole.
- Both “wormholes” are artificially constructed.
- Both space stations start out orbiting a planet (although DS9 is quickly moved).
- Babylon 5 incorporates long story arcs from the beginning; DS9 embraces story arcs after the Trek brand initially rejected them.
- Both shows have a main protagonist who is a religious figure of sorts. B5’s Commander Sinclair is Valen, a figure of great reverence within Minbari society. DS9’s Commander Sisko is the Emissary to the Prophets and is revered by the Bajorans.
- Both shows feature a human as a religious icon for an alien race.
- Both show’s main protagonist is turned into a messianic figure; both disappear at the end of their respective series.
- Both series take place just after a devastating conflict for the human race. In the B5 universe, the Earth-Minbari War has devastated humanity. In the DS9 universe, the Borg have attacked Starfleet defenses.
- Both show’s main protagonist took part in that devastating conflict.
- In DS9, a major war erupts between the Dominion and the Alpha Quadrant — many races join together to stop them; in B5, a major war erupts between the Shadows and the younger alien races — many alien races join together to stop them.
- Both Space Stations become strategically important during a major war.
- Both shows have a willful female as second officer. B5 has Susan Ivanova, a feisty Russian, and DS9 has Kira, an aggressive Bajoran.
- Both shows have their willful first officer make peace with their father; the death of each character’s father features prominently in the show.
- Both shows have an idealistic young doctor; both are very moralistic. B5’s Franklin refused to help design a biogenetic plague while DS9’s Bashir offers to help sworn enemies of the Federation (the Jem’Hadar).
- Both shows feature a hard-nosed security chief. DS9 has Odo; B5 has Michael Garibaldi.
- Both shows feature a commanding officer who likes baseball (B5’s Sheridan, DS9’s Sisko + baseball is frequently mentioned during the first two seasons of B5).
- DS9’s Bajorans are highly religious; so are B5’s Minbari – an entire third of their society belongs to a religious caste.
- Both shows have an alien race which possesses an object of extreme religious significance to them, an object capable of revealing things about people and the world. B5’s Minbari have the Triluminary; DS9’s Bajorans have the Orbs.
- DS9’s Bajor suffered a devastating 50-year-long occupation in which the planet was strip-mined by a major power, the Cardassians. B5’s Narn suffered a century-long occupation by the Centauri in which the planet was left devastated by resource exploitation.
- Both Narn and Bajor were peaceful agrarian races before being enslaved by their respective antagonists.
- Both DS9’s Cardassia and B5’s Centauri were expelled from those worlds via terrorist movements.
- Both DS9’s Cardassia and B5’s Centauri later return to those worlds. The Centauri conquer Narn; the Cardassians retake DS9 and express a desire to continue “on to Bajor.”
- Both shows have an ambitious character who longs for the days when his people were strong and respected; these characters both align themselves with the central antagonist in order to return their people to glory (DS9’s Dukat and B5’s Mollari).
- Neither of these characters has much influence left in the beginning of their show; they are elevated by their association with the central antagonist.
- DS9’s Cardassia wanes in power, and then joins the Dominion in order to make herself strong again. B5’s Centauri Prime wanes in power, and then allies herself with the Shadows in order to reclaim her former status; both fight for their masters in one way or another. In other words, both powers ally themselves with their show’s respective villains in order to reclaim lost status.
- DS9’s “longing for the old days” character Dukat becomes his world’s leader; B5’s “longing for the old days” character Mollari becomes his world’s leader. Both characters make terrible decisions as leader (leading to planetary destruction); both are hated and die in the end.
- Neither the Shadows nor the Dominion care for their hosts; they are merely using them.
- Both shows have a main antagonist who uses servant races to fight their enemies. The Shadows have the Drakh; the Dominion have the Vorta and the Jem’Hadar.
- DS9 gets the Defiant; B5 gets the White Star. Both ships are small, agile, and sport a new type of armor.
- There is a coup on B5’s Earth (facilitated by the Shadows), leading them to align with the show’s central antagonist. There is an attempted coup on Earth in DS9 (initially Dominion-linked before being revealed as a human conspiracy); there is an actual coup on Cardassia (rumored to have been facilitated by the Dominion), leading the Cardassians to eventually join with the central antagonist.
- DS9 drops the visualization of shields for better damage effects; the B5 universe rarely used them at all (most races didn’t use shields).
- B5 has battles between small fighter spacecraft; DS9 uses special shuttles for a similar purpose during the first few seasons.
- Both shows deal with terrorism early on. DS9 had the Circle and the Maquis; B5 had Home Guard and Free Mars.
Watching Discovery on Paramount plus, think this'll be the last of it, some good moments, but jeez some of the characters are just not interesting at all and seem to be getting a lot of airtime.
I enjoyed the first three seasons, but after watching the first 7 episodes of the fourth season, I can't see Discovery lasting past the 5th season in best case. I simply can't see where they are supposed to go now they're so far in the future. I thought the plot in S3 was so huge for its own sake and it left plenty of unanswered questions so I was hoping I would get the answers in S4. nope, there's zero focus on the other races after the "burning". instead, they just invented another thing that is going to destroy the universe as we know it, again. first it was the control, then the burning, now this anomaly. sigh.
I don't mind ST without crew exploring planets, without all the familiar species, without casual encounters with other ships in the space etc. I wish all of that was in show, but I could live without that - if the characters left in show were at least a bit interesting. but since they've gone about 700 years into the future, they basically erased all the interesting characters (Lorca, Spock, Pike, Ash) and are now giving too much space to the likes such as Tilly, Adira and that transgender. seriously, they need to feck off from the show ASAP. imagine DS9 without Garak and Dukat or TNG without Riker or Worf. whatever it is that you liked in past shows (or seasons), be it space battles, politics or interesting species and characters, it simply isn't here. the space is empty. traditional species are forgotten, just like those exotic and powerful ones. Star Trek without Klingons and Borg, but plenty of spheres and anomalies. they should've just called it Star Trek: Anomalies.
don't get me wrong, I still like it since at this point I'm glad there is a Star Trek show still going. I'm also curious about the mysterious race behind the anomaly. maybe we get to see the Borg after all. it's just that, eliminating other species from the show basically means eliminating the most interesting characters and scenes. you can't only have good guys and fecking anomalies in the show.
I don't mind ST without crew exploring planets, without all the familiar species, without casual encounters with other ships in the space etc. I wish all of that was in show, but I could live without that - if the characters left in show were at least a bit interesting. but since they've gone about 700 years into the future, they basically erased all the interesting characters (Lorca, Spock, Pike, Ash) and are now giving too much space to the likes such as Tilly, Adira and that transgender. seriously, they need to feck off from the show ASAP. imagine DS9 without Garak and Dukat or TNG without Riker or Worf. whatever it is that you liked in past shows (or seasons), be it space battles, politics or interesting species and characters, it simply isn't here. the space is empty. traditional species are forgotten, just like those exotic and powerful ones. Star Trek without Klingons and Borg, but plenty of spheres and anomalies. they should've just called it Star Trek: Anomalies.
don't get me wrong, I still like it since at this point I'm glad there is a Star Trek show still going. I'm also curious about the mysterious race behind the anomaly. maybe we get to see the Borg after all. it's just that, eliminating other species from the show basically means eliminating the most interesting characters and scenes. you can't only have good guys and fecking anomalies in the show.
I've tried repeatedly to get back into Discovery but couldn't get through the various episodes I attempted to watch. I do love Picard though and am looking forward to the start of season two next month.
I actually thought this season has been okay, but there comes a time when some characters and genders get thrown down your throat way to much, just to be beyond overly pc.
Batwoman has done this as well both on and off screen.
Make them interesting at least, because some of the portrayals or writing has been below par.
Batwoman has done this as well both on and off screen.
Make them interesting at least, because some of the portrayals or writing has been below par.
This has been one of my chief criticisms from the beginning. The writing (at least in the episodes I've seen) was not up to usual Star Trek standards.
It got all SJW and that really put me off, with shows forcing current awareness issues down your throat.