Television Star Trek

The likes of TNG, TOS, DS9 and VOY are not as good as Discovery, so it felt like a step backwards.

This post makes me realise that "everyone's entitled to an opinion" is a totally wrong opinion. :lol:

Anyway, from my point of view, Discovery (season 1) and the Abramsverse films are action sci-fi show, cannibalising elements but not the ideas of older Trek, while TNG and DS9 (an most of the other old Trek) are utopian world-building sci-fi shows which it seems we'll never see again.
 
Meanwhile, Thursday's Discovery episode was heavily related to a TOS classic and nobody's talking about it. :lol:
Probably because this isn’t the canon universe. It’s not the kelvin universe it’s not the tng/ds9 it’s something else
 
That's roughly about as clever as the older shows, so it's understandable that they're your high water mark.

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If that was its main motivation, it'd be The Orville.
I just saw your post about discovery compared to other trek. :lol:

Watch the st tng episode yesterday’s enterprise. That does discovery better than discovery
 
The old school-ism wasn't the best thing they've ever done. The likes of TNG, TOS, DS9 and VOY are not as good as Discovery, so it felt like a step backwards. But it was pretty good overall.

TV is different nowadays so obviously Discovery will be different from the older shows. Whether it's for better or worse, obviously opinions will differ. I think the Old school had a lot of positive qualities, certainly for sci-fi shows
 
Huge improvement on the first series. Other than the Klingon episode which reminded of the worst episodes of series 1, I've enjoyed it all.
 
The last 3 episodes have been a step in the right direction.
 
I take it it has improved then? Stopped watching after a few episodes of season two which were as bad as season one. I just couldn't take the unlikeable characters (apart from Pike) and the hollow and pretentious dialogues anymore. It all felt like a watered down and dumbed down version of what Star Trek is supposed to be.
 
Pike is great, right up there in the list of best trek captains. The rest of the crew are just so damn unlikeable though.
 
I'd say it's much more like normal Star Trek than the war and violence of the first series.
There was hardly any war in the fist season, other than the first episode.

The second season has a lot more action. And if you prefer the easily digestible sci-fi of TNG and DS9, I'd give give this a miss.

Whilst I like the 90s and 00s Star Treks, I very much consider them to be "of their era". More Xena: Warrior Princess than Game of Thrones, if you will.

Discovery is CBS's attempt at prestige drama. As such, it's going to appeal to the average Joe a lot more than those who still re-watch old episodes of Enterprise or Voyager et al on a regular basis.

For better or worse, Archer, Sisko and Picard would get chewed up and spat out in the modern incarnation of the Star Trek universe.
 
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TV is different nowadays so obviously Discovery will be different from the older shows. Whether it's for better or worse, obviously opinions will differ. I think the Old school had a lot of positive qualities, certainly for sci-fi shows
I like the simplistic/naiveley utopian nature of the older series.

But (on a cinematic level) they don't make sense with Discovery's more grown up take on the way the future is likely to turn out.

For crying out loud, season 1 got criticised because the Klingons didn't look human enough. That's the kind of bullshit the writers of the current show have to put up with.
 
There was hardly any war in the fist season, other than the first episode.

.
The entire series was set during a war. It was literally the main plotline. Starfleet as a military force interests me far less than Starfleet as an exploratory and enlightened organisation.
 
For crying out loud, season 1 got criticised because the Klingons didn't look human enough. That's the kind of bullshit the writers of the current show have to put up with.

The Klingons were hardly the only problem with season 1.



Has any of this been resolved since ?
 
Last 2 episodes have been pretty good, was worried for a second it was going to give in to the Trekkies and become some old boring rehash. But thankfully its kept With the hard choices, grit and adult themes. This seems more like Star Trek for grown ups than the previous encarnations.
 
The entire series was set during a war. It was literally the main plotline. Starfleet as a military force interests me far less than Starfleet as an exploratory and enlightened organisation.
There was a lot more more war-time plotline during TOS, DS9 and TNG.
 
The Klingons were hardly the only problem with season 1.



Has any of this been resolved since ?


SJW, lefty bullshit, third wave feminism, obsession with identity politics and other buzzwords within in the first 5 minutes. Okay.
 
The Klingons were hardly the only problem with season 1.



Has any of this been resolved since ?

The alien-ness of the Klingons was lessended in season 2, unfortunately. The show played fan-service to those who were desperate for a more easily digestible "sci-fi" world.

But if you ignore all the sops to TNG, Enterpise, etc. Discovery is actually a much more intelligent show.

It's easy to see why it's underrated by a subset of old-school fans, whilst being lauded by modern day critics.

EDIT: There's not as much gay propaganda in the second season. You'd like it.
 
I like the simplistic/naiveley utopian nature of the older series.

But (on a cinematic level) they don't make sense with Discovery's more grown up take on the way the future is likely to turn out.

Firstly, just because they potrayed a nicer future doesn't mean they weren't "adult."
At one extreme you had Picard refusing to sacrifice a single teenager to save the galaxy, on the other you had Sisko becoming a one-man mafia and CIA trying to add allies to the war. In TOS Kirk was led a nurse to her death because her living would have eventually meant Nazi triumph. None of those were easy decisions. There's many more - Measure of a man, even Tuvix, etc. Even outside the war context, The Inner Light portrayed the inevitable unspreventable death of a civilisation, by immersing the main character within that civilisation's dying days.*

On the other hand, having characters say they're "making tough decisions" isn't the hallmark of "adult" or, more importantly, good writing. You can have all sorts of horrific decisions being shown on screen but they don't make any impact unless they are believable, you feel something for the victims or the ones making the decisions. Picard doesn't make any decisions in Inner Light, he doesn't kill anyone. But his pain at the end of that episode is more believable than anything the 2-D characters of Discovery showed when they betrayed each other for the tenth time.

Finally, the idea of the Federation - made explicit in TNG and then in the Bell riots episodes od DS9 - is about humanity being reduced to total depravity and warfare, and emerging from that with utopian ideals.
If I want gritty sci-fi, The Expanse does a much better job of it - realistic science fiction with realistic technology, realistic politics, better written characters, a very non-utopian world that you can easily see emerging from this one. I want something with the Star Trek name to hold on to the core principles that the series has held for half a century, it's no point writing that universe like all the others on TV. As @Fingeredmouse said, Trek is about exploration and discovery - there was absolutely none of that in season 1.


*I somehow forgot the ton of DS9 episodes about basically concentration camps.
 
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The Klingons look like aliens. OMG!

I can understand why the old-school Star Trek ha so much appeal by basically holding up a mirror to contemporary geo-politics. But CBS is evidently trying to present more than just a reflection of the Cold War.
 
Firstly, just because they potrayed a nicer future doesn't mean they weren't "adult."
At one extreme you had Picard refusing to sacrifice a single teenager to save the galaxy, on the other you had Sisko becoming a one-man mafia and CIA trying to add allies to the war. In TOS Kirk was led a nurse to her death because her living would have eventually meant Nazi triumph. None of those were easy decisions. There's many more - Measure of a man, even Tuvix, etc. Even outside the war context, The Inner Light portrayed the inevitable unspreventable death of a civilisation, by immersing the main character within that civilisation's dying days.

On the other hand, having characters say they're "making tough decisions" isn't the hallmark of "adult" or, more importantly, good writing. You can have all sorts of horrific decisions being shown on screen but they don't make any impact unless they are believable, you feel something for the victims or the ones making the decisions. Picard doesn't make any decisions in Inner Light, he doesn't kill anyone. But his pain at the end of that episode is more believable than anything the 2-D characters of Discovery showed when they betrayed each other for the tenth time.

Finally, the idea of the Federation - made explicit in TNG and then in the Bell riots episodes od DS9 - is about humanity being reduced to total depravity and warfare, and emerging from that with utopian ideals.
If I want gritty sci-fi, The Expanse does a much better job of it - realistic science fiction with realistic technology, realistic politics, better written characters, a very non-utopian world that you can easily see emerging from this one. I want something with the Star Trek name to hold on to the core principles that the series has held for half a century, it's no point writing that universe like all the others on TV. As @Fingeredmouse said, Trek is about exploration and discovery - there was absolutely none of that in season 1.
You've got it the wrong way around.

The Expanse is better than any Star Trek incarnation. But Discovery is the next best thing.
 
There was a lot more more war-time plotline during TOS, DS9 and TNG.
In later DS9, certainly. The others? Not so much. I mean I'm not sure how this is a disputed point really. The entire of Discovery's first series storyline is driven by a war and Burnham as a character.
TNG for instance has some Klingon infighting, some Romulan stuff, a few invasions of Earth (those parasites, the Borg) but it is mainly stand alone episodes mostly about exploration and various sci-fi macguffins. TOS has the Kilngon conflict in the background, but it's not the driving force of the plot is it?
It's been years since I watched either but I can't have forgotten that much surely.
 
Stop judging Discovery by the narrow frame of reference you want it to fit into.

Not only is it more than that, it doesn't give a shit what you expect it to be, simply because the nineties reboots provided a sanitised version of the future.

Vive la difference.
 
In later DS9, certainly. The others? Not so much. I mean I'm not sure how this is a disputed point really. The entire of Discovery's first series storyline is driven by a war and Burnham as a character.
TNG for instance has some Klingon infighting, some Romulan stuff, a few invasions of Earth (those parasites, the Borg) but it is mainly stand alone episodes mostly about exploration and various sci-fi macguffins. TOS has the Kilngon conflict in the background, but it's not the driving force of the plot is it?
It's been years since I watched either but I can't have forgotten that much surely.

You are totally right about TNG and TOS.
And in DS9, the war officially starts in S6 (though it's been steadily building to that point, with maybe about 20% of previous episodes related to the buildup), but even S6 has about half its episodes about some standalone issue (usually something to do with one character).
 
You are totally right about TNG and TOS.
And in DS9, the war officially starts in S6 (though it's been steadily building to that point, with maybe about 20% of previous episodes related to the buildup), but even S6 has about half its episodes about some standalone issue (usually something to do with one character).
If you enjoy simplistic storylines, more power to you. I agree that the older series were much better at that.

I can appreciate how, if Discovery presented species/"races" in a more a more anthropomorphic manner, it'd be easier to understand.