Spurs 2018/19

I think there are quite a few different factors at play here:

There is a reason a lot of Spurs fans can be reluctant to criticise Levy. He has made mistakes. Who hasn't? But overall, our progress has been incredible overall and I know we get some criticism from fans of certain clubs but, regardless of history, our situation was not dissimilar to Newcastle's, Villa's, Leed's, Everton's etc. In fact, with how poor our chairmen were previously, there were more than a few Southampton/ West Ham etc fans who thought there wasn't too much difference between the clubs. The team has improved and what he's ensured is that, regardless of whatever ends up happening on the field in the short term, the infrastructure will be there long term for the club. That is huge.

Still, he's not perfect so I don't get why some Spurs fans are so averse to other Spurs fans criticising his flaws. We've done literally no business this summer. How you can think that is acceptable is beyond me. Regardless of whether we do some players now (and I'm sure we will), there will be no pre-season at all.

If we stand still, overall we are likely to be going backwards compared to our competitors. Wanting to make one or two important signings does not make a fan some kind of transfer muppet.

I wouldn't put too much stall in transfer rumours. The club has become watertight in terms of leaks and Son and Sanchez came out of the blue. I wouldn't put any stall in ITK, who are a bunch of attention seeking weirdos.

How anyone can twist the Poch be brave comments to mean he is talking to himself and imploring himself to play more youth players is insane. Does anyone believe Levy has any say in who Poch plays or plays in his squad?

As it stands, we have a bit of a crisis in CM for the start of the season (and imo, is actually one of the weakest areas of the team now, considering Wanyama and Dembele's injury problems and Wink's injury proneness).
 
Scroto Baggins said:
So if Spurs sign Zaha and Grealish are the Spurs faithful happy with the window? Solves the home grown problems Poch had that was tlked about earlier in this thread, brings in a young player for the outgoing Dembele and Zaha certainly has that x factor.

I personally think Spurs need a CB, a big risk relying on the young kid Foyth given he has never played a PL game. I quite like Spurs' first choice CB's Vertonghen and Sanchez, thought for his first year Sanchez looked the goods and is only going to improve. And Vertonghen was one of my CB's of the season. It's just if either gets injured you have a utility player in Dier who can play in a pinch at CB and ???? Foyth? Maybe a cheeky bid for Lascelles, Maguire, insert other home gown young CB here?
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I'd be OK with that IF Dembele stays for another season, which he still might. But otherwise I'd like a more proven quality CM to come in.

The CB situation depends on whether Toby leaves or stays - it's not yet clear either way. But we also have Carter-Vickers (young American CB, who now has 5 caps for their senior team) as well as Foyth, and he's looked not all bad in our two friendlies against Roma and Barca.
 
africanspur said:
I think there are quite a few different factors at play here:

There is a reason a lot of Spurs fans can be reluctant to criticise Levy. He has made mistakes. Who hasn't? But overall, our progress has been incredible overall and I know we get some criticism from fans of certain clubs but, regardless of history, our situation was not dissimilar to Newcastle's, Villa's, Leed's, Everton's etc. In fact, with how poor our chairmen were previously, there were more than a few Southampton/ West Ham etc fans who thought there wasn't too much difference between the clubs. The team has improved and what he's ensured is that, regardless of whatever ends up happening on the field in the short term, the infrastructure will be there long term for the club. That is huge.
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This is important. Levy has done brilliantly at bringing our club out from the brink and some of his work has been fantastic. I think in this thread it looks like I despise him at times, but this is mainly because others are so defensive of criticism towards him. I don't hate Levy, or want him out, he's done an absolutely fantastic job in a number of respects and I wouldn't swap him for any chairman in the league, with our current financial situation. I'm not unappreciative of what he's done for the club, I just don't see the point in ignoring his faults or looking the other way when he makes errors.
 
acnumber9 said:
But yet when it suited you it was obvious that Pochettino would’ve discussed more funds with Levy. You were quite bullish about how much Spurs would have to spend with your new stadium opening and were certain that Pochettino signing his contract was evidence of that. When it suited.
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As I've already said (a) we're committing lots of extra money on new contracts; and (b) the transfer window is not yet closed.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I'd be OK with that IF Dembele stays for another season, which he still might. But otherwise I'd like a more proven quality CM to come in.

The CB situation depends on whether Toby leaves or stays - it's not yet clear either way. But we also have Carter-Vickers (young American CB, who now has 5 caps for their senior team) as well as Foyth, and he's looked not all bad in our two friendlies against Roma and Barca.
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Can't rely on Dembele anymore. Godly player at his best and absolutely crucial to us in the last few years, but his fitness is going and you can never trust him not to be injured. We badly need to sign someone there regardless of whether he stays or not, because losing his influence is going to be a huge blow to the team. Nobody in our midfield can even remotely replicate what he provides.

CCV is talented but not ready, and the same goes with Foyth. They probably need loan spells, not to be sitting on our bench. We already rely too heavily on Sanchez, if we lost Alderweireld we'd go in with basically only Vertonghen as an experienced CB, that simply cannot happen.
 
GlastonSpur said:
All this has been done to death already. A contract with a manager doesn't stop them leaving if they want to, because no club can go forward with a manager who wants out. Ergo Pochettino preferred to stay.
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I agree, if the manager demands to leave there's not much a club can do. But this doesn't change the fact Pochettino signed his contract prior to being approached which is very different to what you stated:

GlastonSpur said:
Pochettino has just turned down Real Madrid to sign a new contract with Spurs!
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It's a small point and one I'm not going to push after this post. I just find it odd how often people misrepresent facts. This observation is not just aimed at you as it happens everywhere today and particularly online. It's a rather boring phenomenon.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Yes, he's clearly made mistakes with some previous managerial appointments (I'd exclude Redknapp and obviously Pochettino). But then at the time Spurs were not as an attractive a club as they are now, so his choices, albeit not always good ones, were more limited.

I honestly don't think Levy could now be doing anything more than he is … or not without saddling the club with crippling debts.

Transfers are complicated - especially this window with the World Cup and all. And too many fans are too ready to believe every bit of media guff they read.

Take Grealish for example, and the notion that we could have signed him early in the window if only Levy had stumped up £40m. This assumes that Grealish's importance to Spurs is worth £40m - but what if Pochettino told Levy he wasn't that important and only worth a punt at £20m? Moreover, what if Pochettino told Levy that he had a younger player or two in mind - Luke Amos or Oliver Skipp say - that he'd rather promote to the senior squad than see £40m spent on Grealish in the knowledge that this would reduce his budget for other potential new players? And what about Villa's transfer embargo (the news of which later became public), what effect did this had?

The point here being that there are lots of factors behind the scenes that we don't know about in any potential transfer. But all we hear is the simplistic clamour for "new signings" from folk who mostly don't know about - and don't want to hear about - the complexities involved.

I've cited the not-far-short of £1 billion that Spurs have invested/are investing in the new stadium complex and new training centre. One fecking billion pounds! What other Prem club could have diverted such sums away from player investment and still become an established top 4 club?

I don't care what anyone says: it's a very remarkable achievement and it's occurred with Levy at the helm. He's the longest standing club chair in the Prem and he deserves a lot of credit.
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You're taking one specific example of Graelish and talking about youth as if Poch has to convince Levy to keep money in his pocket. Poch is the one who chooses the team. If he thinks Skipp is ready, then great, he can put him in the team. Frankly, as the pressure has gone up at Spurs, Poch's willingness to play youth has diminished (see KWP last season). I find it difficult to believe you believe the only thing Levy could have done differently in his whole time is maybe not hired Santini etc.

I think it is incredibly patronising to talk about transfers as if most fans are mindless buffoons who just want Levy to drop 200 million on a player and think transfers are conducted over a quick phone call or something. Most Spurs fans realise that we won't do that and that the stadium will prove a short term block to transfers. They realise that we don't have the funds of Man Utd or City. They realise the days when our squad had huge haps and we'd need to make 4-5 transfers a window are thankfully over. It is not unreasonable to think that we should have been doing better with transfers this window. We haven't even shifted deadwood yet if that is what we are waiting on to make transfers. We haven't improved the team and considering how Poch often is with new players and his need for a good pre season, any new transfer may make a while to even make an impact at all.

The other thing is that we currently have, I believe, the most expensive season tickets in the league. We have the most expensive memberships in the league as well and amongst the most expensive general sale tickets. The 'product' on the pitch better stay up to standard otherwise people may start questioning why they're paying so much more than Chelsea, Man Utd and City fans. It is a delicate balance.

And mate, you need to stop listening to ITK. Its nonsense and has been nonsense since Redknapp left basically, bar one or two people who have occasionally had personal connections with people at the club.
 
Yeah, Pochettino did not turn down Real Madrid. Straight up just didn't happen, anybody saying otherwise is deluding themselves.
 
KM said:
Of course but when the other teams have improved, it does count as going backwards as a team.
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Isn't it more a case of 'if' - not 'when'?

The season has yet to unfold .. and I've heard before in recent summers how the spending on new players by other clubs will apparently blow Spurs out of the top 4.
 
Donk87 said:
I agree, if the manager demands to leave there's not much a club can do. But this doesn't change the fact Pochettino signed his contract prior to being approached which is very different to what you stated:



It's a small point and one I'm not going to push after this post. I just find it odd how often people misrepresent facts. This observation is not just aimed at you as it happens everywhere today and particularly online. It's a rather boring phenomenon.
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I'm not going to push this further either because it is a silly argument but Poch signed the new contract just days before the CL final when a lot of people were speculating that Zidane would potentially be fired if he were to lose and therefore end up trophyless and well off the pace in the league.

Not exactly rocket science to hold off on signing that new deal and waiting on that result before deciding what you're going to do at your current job if you're really that keen to jump ship.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Isn't it more a case of 'if' - not 'when'?

The season has yet to unfold .. and I've heard before in recent summers how the spending on new players by other clubs will apparently blow Spurs out of the top 4.
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Signings by United led them to finish above us. Signings by Chelsea in the past have led them to league titles, signings by City led them to absolutely rinsing the league last season. Liverpool have only just started to seriously spend and were 2 points behind us last season. Spending doesn't always equate to immediate success but the vast majority of the time will eventually lead to results. If we keep ignoring the spending of other teams and do nothing to counter it, we will end up behind them. Period. It might not happen this season even, but inevitably it will happen.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Oh I see the fantastic 'oh fans who want transfers are so gullible and easily fooled by media reports' argument has returned. Apparently because you want your team to sign players, you therefore automatically believe every 'The Sun' article which emerges. Fantastic logic.

Might make the *slightest* bit of sense if people were in here demanding we bring in Bale, but nobody is so it's not relevant. Linking frustrations with a lack of ANY movement to being some naive idiot who hangs on every word the tabloid press print is completely unfair. Yes, the transfer window is complex, and yes we are limited as a club and can't sign top tier players. That doesn't mean we have to act like signing a player is rocket science and an impossibility (when nearly every other club manages it) or that we have the pull of Watford.

@GlastonSpur you're constantly bigging this club up and acting like every player under the sun wants to play for Pochettino, our new stadium will attract new sponsors etc, so why is it so hard for us to sign a single player in this window, when other clubs have managed it? Either Levy really has transformed us in to a club who can compete with the biggest clubs, or he hasn't and we're still very limited and unable to compete in the transfer market. Which is it? You can't on one hand say that Martial would love to come, then cry about how fans expect too much from Levy.

Make your fecking mind up. Because all it looks like to me is that you'll twist absolutely any argument to suit your idea that Levy is our ominpotent lord and can do no wrong.
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I'm not saying that you do, but it's obvious from even a brief look at threads in the transfer section how many fans get their knickers in a twist from silly media stories.

I'd say the overall record of Spurs transfer dealings is pretty good in recent years - you only have to look at the players we have and the prices paid for them to see that. So I'm baffled as to why you seize on this particular window - especially when it's still open - to claim that we "... act like signing a player is rocket science and an impossibility … or that we have the pull of Watford."

The rest of your claims don't stand up. For example, I've never claimed "every player under the sun wants to play for Pochettino" (and even if they did, we don't have the funds for Messi) … that's just your hyperbole.

Nor have I claimed that Levy "has transformed us in to a club who can compete with the biggest clubs" - at least not on financial terms when it comes to transfer fees and wages. Obviously we can't do that currently, given our new stadium costs.

And yes, I can say that "Martial would love to come" (he would) and then talk about about how fans expect too much from Levy, because whether Martial comes or not is out of Levy's control … it depends not least on whether United are willing to sell to a rival.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I'm not saying that you do, but it's obvious from even a brief look at threads in the transfer section how many fans get their knickers in a twist from silly media stories.

I'd say the overall record of Spurs transfer dealings is pretty good in recent years - you only have to look at the players we have and the prices paid for them to see that. So I'm baffled as to why you seize on this particular window - especially when it's still open - to claim that we "... act like signing a player is rocket science and an impossibility … or that we have the pull of Watford."

The rest of your claims don't stand up. For example, I've never claimed "every player under the sun wants to play for Pochettino" (and even if they did, we don't have the funds for Messi) … that's just your hyperbole.

Nor have I claimed that Levy "has transformed us in to a club who can compete with the biggest clubs" - at least not on financial terms when it comes to transfer fees and wages. Obviously we can't do that currently, given our new stadium costs.

And yes, I can say that "Martial would love to come" (he would) and then talk about about how fans expect too much from Levy, because whether Martial comes or not is out of Levy's control … it depends not least on whether United are willing to sell to a rival.
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You make tons of bold claims bigging up how attractive we are to players, how profitable we are, how we're able to compete with others. Then when people question the fact we have signed NOBODY this transfer window, it's suddenly impossible for us to do so, the transfer market is too complex, we're still paying off the stadium debts etc etc. How do you know Martial would love to come? Have you spoken to him?

You make loads of big claims regarding this football club (I'm not going to bother trawling through them all, I'm sure people are aware you do this) but then backtrack when we don't do as well as such claims would suggest. Then it's a trillion excuses.

Tell me, hypothetically if we miss out on the top four this season, do you expect Pochettino and our key players to stay? Do you think with our current squad we'd get top four, with the improvements others have made? Do you genuinely believe it's not been hugely idiotic to have not signed a single player thus far or even moved on any of our deadwood?

Pretty much everyone (except for you) seems capable of accepting we've had a really poor window. Yes, it isn't over, but the problems we have aren't going to be solved in the little time that is left. They just aren't. We've left it way too late and any player we do sign will be expensive anyway, do you seriously think clubs are going to sell on the cheap when time is on their side? That makes no sense whatsoever. Waiting till the last minute does not save you money, if we go to Palace for Zaha now they'll demand stupid money because they know they can't replace him with no time to go.

It's pure incompetence to have left it this late to address any of our problems, I don't know why it's so hard to admit that. Yes, Levy and the board have done fantastic things, but they've completely dropped the ball. I'm sure they have their excuses for this but bottom line all they have done is secure new contracts for existing players, which will not improve us next season. We have stayed completely still when we faced a crucial window, it's completely unacceptable and understandably fans are pissed off.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Signings by United led them to finish above us. Signings by Chelsea in the past have led them to league titles, signings by City led them to absolutely rinsing the league last season. Liverpool have only just started to seriously spend and were 2 points behind us last season. Spending doesn't always equate to immediate success but the vast majority of the time will eventually lead to results. If we keep ignoring the spending of other teams and do nothing to counter it, we will end up behind them. Period. It might not happen this season even, but inevitably it will happen.
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Last season, yes, but what about the two seasons before that, when they also made lots of shiny new signings? And Chelsea? Yes they've won league titles ,but they're also now facing EL football for 2nd time in recent years.

I really don't get what you expect. You like - I assume - the huge investment in stadium complex/training centre - but also at the same time you seem to expect us to now compete financially on transfers and wages with the likes of United, City etc. Well, it's just not possible without borrowing vast amounts of new money and crippling the club for decades to come.

Yes, it'd be good to sign a few new quality players. And maybe we will this window for all you and I yet know.

But it's softly, softly catchee monkee as far I'm concerned. Levy is laying the foundations for the long-term: in the here and now we can't compete financially with some clubs, but pretty soon our income will surpass that of Chelsea's. And soon the stadiums of some clubs are going to look decidedly old and creaky in comparison to ours. And some of these clubs will have to then see if they, unlike Spurs, can finance a replacement without dropping off the footballing map.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Last season, yes, but what about the two seasons before that, when they also made lots of shiny new signings? And Chelsea? Yes they've won league titles ,but they're also now facing EL football for 2nd time in recent years.

I really don't get what you expect. You like - I assume - the huge investment in stadium complex/training centre - but also at the same time you seem to expect us to now compete financially on transfers and wages with the likes of United, City etc. Well, it's just not possible without borrowing vast amounts of new money and crippling the club for decades to come.

Yes, it'd be good to sign a few new quality players. And maybe we will this window for all you and I yet know.

But it's softly, softly catchee monkee as far I'm concerned. Levy is laying the foundations for the long-term: in the here and now we can't compete financially with some clubs, but pretty soon our income will surpass that of Chelsea's. And soon the stadiums of some clubs are going to look decidedly old and creaky in comparison to ours. And some of these clubs will have to then see if they, unlike Spurs, can finance a replacement without dropping off the footballing map.
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They hired two terrible managers who set them back despite the investment. I literally said it doesn't always work immediately, but it will nearly always reap results, as it is doing now. Chelsea have won two league titles in the last four years, I'll take a couple of seasons of Europa League in exchange for that, thanks. They're very likely to do well again this season under a very promising manager and are a massive threat.

Nobody expects City or Unitedesque spending, this is a figment of your imagination. I don't expect this club to blow hundreds of millions on transfers. I do expect us to try and address our squad concerns, try and phase out players who aren't good enough, and bring in a couple of players who can solve some problems. This doesn't cost hundreds of millions of pounds to achieve. Our wage budget is incredibly strict and we spend very little in this area compared to other teams, it's a massive saving. Our transfer spending is also very low, so signing 2-3 players and offloading a couple is not going to lead us to financial ruin or borrowing. You're completely blowing out of proportion the demands fans are making and it's utterly ludicrous.

Maybe we will. We've left it extremely late though, and haven't sold anyone. People coming in will have no pre-season and will slowly have to integrate. They will cost a lot of money because we'll be signing from teams who will need to sort out replacements at the last minute.

I've praised Levy for laying long term foundations, but having excellent facilities does not make you a great team on the pitch. The most important thing we can do for the future is compete for trophies and keep making European football, but we will not do that if we neglect what happens on the pitch, which is what we have done this window. Our long term future will not be great if we drop out of the top four, lose that financial boost and then start losing players who want to be competing for the top honours. It will be a lot more harmful long term for the club to lose Pochettino or to stop playing in Europe's premier competition, than it would be to invest more in the transfer market.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
You make tons of bold claims bigging up how attractive we are to players, how profitable we are, how we're able to compete with others. Then when people question the fact we have signed NOBODY this transfer window, it's suddenly impossible for us to do so, the transfer market is too complex, we're still paying off the stadium debts etc etc. How do you know Martial would love to come? Have you spoken to him?

You make loads of big claims regarding this football club (I'm not going to bother trawling through them all, I'm sure people are aware you do this) but then backtrack when we don't do as well as such claims would suggest. Then it's a trillion excuses.

Tell me, hypothetically if we miss out on the top four this season, do you expect Pochettino and our key players to stay? Do you think with our current squad we'd get top four, with the improvements others have made? Do you genuinely believe it's not been hugely idiotic to have not signed a single player thus far or even moved on any of our deadwood?

Pretty much everyone (except for you) seems capable of accepting we've had a really poor window. Yes, it isn't over, but the problems we have aren't going to be solved in the little time that is left. They just aren't. We've left it way too late and any player we do sign will be expensive anyway, do you seriously think clubs are going to sell on the cheap when time is on their side? That makes no sense whatsoever. Waiting till the last minute does not save you money, if we go to Palace for Zaha now they'll demand stupid money because they know they can't replace him with no time to go.

It's pure incompetence to have left it this late to address any of our problems, I don't know why it's so hard to admit that. Yes, Levy and the board have done fantastic things, but they've completely dropped the ball. I'm sure they have their excuses for this but bottom line all they have done is secure new contracts for existing players, which will not improve us next season. We have stayed completely still when we faced a crucial window, it's completely unacceptable and understandably fans are pissed off.
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Again you make claims of things I've never said: I haven't said it's impossible for us to sign players this window.

Nor do I "... make loads of big claims regarding this football club … but then backtrack when we don't do as well as such claims would suggest." If you want say otherwise, then prove it. And no that doesn't include claiming things I've never said, nor relying on the false claims made by someone else.

Re. Martial. If you want to believe that all ITK is rubbish, then fine, I really don't care. For myself, I happen to think that, based on proven track record alone, some is not. I don't know what alleged ITK you connect with, or don't connect with, and again I don't really care. Believe what you wish.

As for the rest, like all sensible folk I'll make my predictions for top 4 when the window has closed and not before. If we miss out on top 4 then of course it'd be a problem, like it would be for any of our rival clubs.

I happen to think that our current squad is good and that continuity counts for a lot. You, on the other hand, place more weight than me on new signings, even though I too would like to see one or two new players. That's fine - we'll just have to agree to disagree on the emphasis needed and see who was right as the season unfolds.

Finally, it's not possible to sensibly say we've had a bad window, when the window is still open.
 
So many of the same arguments about the new stadium were made about Arsenal. Long term over short term, we will compete financially in the future due to this, etc etc. All it led to was them eventually losing their top assets, their squad as a whole massively declining due to a total lack of investment, and finally they stopped being a champions league team. They now face a race to get back to their old level, and it's going to be far from easy as it's far simpler to build from a strong base than it is to rebuild entirely.

A new stadium, facilities etc are important, and our fans should celebrate them. It's great to see the board invest in such projects. It shouldn't come with the price of allowing the deterioation of Pochettino's team though, which is what it will lead to if we continue to ignore what is happening around us. We are a football team, that should always be the priority for the board, their job is to make it as easy as possible for the manager to win trophies and compete on the field, whilst not bankrupting the side.

The idea we can keep making the top four whilst others around us continue to strive to improve is incredibly naive. We're not invincible, we benefitted from a couple of seasons where a few sides were in transition and it allowed us to gain a foothold in the top four, but we can quite easily lose it. We've built a very good side but so have others, with the competitive nature of the top four even very good teams can finish outside of it. We haven't addressed our issues this summer whilst other teams have done so (Or at least addressed some of their issues) and this is incredibly dangerous.

City and United were already better than us last season. Liverpool were only two points off and have made huge improvements to their playing staff. Then finally, Chelsea were in turmoil last season but we know that team is capable of much more and we know by their very nature they go through a season of poor form, then one where they can be right up there. That's four teams who can very conceivably finish ahead of us, without even adding the threat of Arsenal in to the mix.

Champions League football is not a right, or a guarantee for us. Missing out on it will have significant ramifications. We will lose players who are too good to not be playing in it because unlike Chelsea we can't keep them happy with huge wages and the potential for trophies.
 
GlastonSpur said:
And yes, I can say that "Martial would love to come" (he would) and then talk about about how fans expect too much from Levy, because whether Martial comes or not is out of Levy's control … it depends not least on whether United are willing to sell to a rival.
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If Levy offered Rose and Alderweireld for Martial, there would be a good chance a deal would be done. If Levy offered Alderweireld and £30m, there would be a deal done.

The problem isn't anything to do with United having a problem selling to Spurs... It's to do with Levy believing that his players are worth 30% more than the current market value, whereas players from other clubs are worth 30% less than their market value. This is why Spurs struggle so much in the transfer market - it's absolutely nothing to do with how complicated things are, as illustrated by other clubs who're doing fine. Not to mention that this complication (a shorter window) was voted for by Levy in the first place.

Levy also takes such a hostile and hard line stance when it comes to selling his players in order to squeeze every last penny, that I'm not surprised other clubs do likewise when he comes knocking. Why would United sell Martial for less than £70m when Spurs declined our offer for Bale because we were "rivals". Likewise playing us off against City with Berbatov, despite the player having no interest in joining City. Why would Chelsea sell any of their players after the Modric scenario? So'ton possibly feel likewise when they believed they had things sown up for Alderweireld.

Part of being a successful negotiator is thinking long term; Levy's mantra of antagonising people who he's likely to be going back to in order to negotiate in good faith a couple of years later is obviously bad for business. Sometimes goodwill is worth much more than what it costs you to squeeze that extra £1m.

Levy hit the jackpot though with Pochettino so he should be doing everything he can to support him. That means moving away from his penny pinching ways and getting transfer business done early to give his manager the best chance of a successful campaign. If that means moving Rose, Alderweireld and Dembele on for £100m early on in the window and bringing in Martial, Grealish, De Ligt and Kondogbia for £180m then that would be a successful window. Hoping to sell those three for £130m, whilst valuing the latter at £125m is not just bad for business, but it undermines the manager and the team.

If Pochettino leaves and is followed by the likes of Alli/Erikson/Kane, then Levy will be back to the days of languishing mid-table whilst hiring and firing managers like Ramos and AVB. As it stands Levy's record is being terrible at negotiating commercial deals, being mediocre at concluding transfer deals and being mediocre at selecting managers (Pochettino being the exception of course). The manager is far, far more important to Spurs compared with the chairman and it's clear the former is looking for bold investment in the transfer market. Why the fans aren't backing up their manager and passing on this pressure is beyond me.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
They hired two terrible managers who set them back despite the investment. I literally said it doesn't always work immediately, but it will nearly always reap results, as it is doing now. Chelsea have won two league titles in the last four years, I'll take a couple of seasons of Europa League in exchange for that, thanks. They're very likely to do well again this season under a very promising manager and are a massive threat.

Nobody expects City or Unitedesque spending, this is a figment of your imagination. I don't expect this club to blow hundreds of millions on transfers. I do expect us to try and address our squad concerns, try and phase out players who aren't good enough, and bring in a couple of players who can solve some problems. This doesn't cost hundreds of millions of pounds to achieve. Our wage budget is incredibly strict and we spend very little in this area compared to other teams, it's a massive saving. Our transfer spending is also very low, so signing 2-3 players and offloading a couple is not going to lead us to financial ruin or borrowing. You're completely blowing out of proportion the demands fans are making and it's utterly ludicrous.

Maybe we will. We've left it extremely late though, and haven't sold anyone. People coming in will have no pre-season and will slowly have to integrate. They will cost a lot of money because we'll be signing from teams who will need to sort out replacements at the last minute.

I've praised Levy for laying long term foundations, but having excellent facilities does not make you a great team on the pitch. The most important thing we can do for the future is compete for trophies and keep making European football, but we will not do that if we neglect what happens on the pitch, which is what we have done this window. Our long term future will not be great if we drop out of the top four, lose that financial boost and then start losing players who want to be competing for the top honours. It will be a lot more harmful long term for the club to lose Pochettino or to stop playing in Europe's premier competition, than it would be to invest more in the transfer market.
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Then why do you keep dragging them into the discussion? Or Chelsea for that matter.

You say "I do expect us to try and address our squad concerns, try and phase out players who aren't good enough, and bring in a couple of players who can solve some problems. This doesn't cost hundreds of millions of pounds to achieve." I entirely agree and have not said otherwise.

You also say: "Our wage budget is incredibly strict and we spend very little in this area compared to other teams, it's a massive saving. Our transfer spending is also very low, so signing 2-3 players and offloading a couple is not going to lead us to financial ruin or borrowing." Again, I entirely agree and have not said otherwise … albeit with the caveat that you mention our cost-savings, but these have to balanced against the stadium costs.

I personally think the new stadium complex and training centre is the most important thing for our future: players and managers come and go but these things will remain. And even if we drop out of the top 4 this season, or next season, or whenever (as all clubs do), the financial benefit of the new stadium will enable us to more quickly regain a competitive footing.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Then why do you keep dragging them into the discussion? Or Chelsea for that matter.

You say "I do expect us to try and address our squad concerns, try and phase out players who aren't good enough, and bring in a couple of players who can solve some problems. This doesn't cost hundreds of millions of pounds to achieve." I entirely agree and have not said otherwise.

You also say: "Our wage budget is incredibly strict and we spend very little in this area compared to other teams, it's a massive saving. Our transfer spending is also very low, so signing 2-3 players and offloading a couple is not going to lead us to financial ruin or borrowing." Again, I entirely agree and have not said otherwise … albeit with the caveat that you mention our cost-savings, but these have to balanced against the stadium costs.

I personally think the new stadium complex and training centre is the most important thing for our future: players and managers come and go but these things will remain. And even if we drop out of the top 4 this season, or next season, or whenever (as all clubs do), the financial benefit of the new stadium will enable us to more quickly regain a competitive footing.
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Because I'm using them as examples of teams who could very conceivably finish ahead of us next season?

You think the priority is the new stadium, facilities etc. I think the priority is the football team and making sure it can remain competitive. We clearly have different priorities and ideas about what will make a club successful long term, that isn't going to change. You clearly think the stadium is going to help us compete more than I believe it will. This isn't going to change.

Maybe I'm weird but I think winning trophies and building memories on the pitch is what will make a team successful long term.
 
africanspur said:
Taken out a £400 million bank loan.

Actual stadium itself is costing between 400-450 million, total project around 850-900 million I believe.

And the net spend has been pitiful for years now so I assume some money has been going towards infrastructure for a while from our side too.
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That’s in addition to £100m already borrowed and a further £25m from HSBC. Not quite 1 fecking billion pound diverted from Spurs own funds really. Or anywhere near it in fact.
 
acnumber9 said:
That’s in addition to £100m already borrowed and a further £25m from HSBC. Not quite 1 fecking billion pound diverted from Spurs own funds really. Or anywhere near it in fact.
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The 100 million already borrowed was from a 200 million loan which was replaced, not added to, by the 400 million loan. Its in the official link provided by that other poster above.

Anyone who genuinely believes Spurs have ploughed 850 mil of their own money into the stadium project is living in cloud cuckoo land.
 
acnumber9 said:
That’s in addition to a loan they already had though. They’ve borrowed at least £525m
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The £400m loan replaces the previous financing agreement of which 100m had been drawn so I believe that's already factored in.

The caveat is I don't work in finance so if there's any experts out there who can confirm this that would be great.
 
finneh said:
If Pochettino leaves and is followed by the likes of Alli/Erikson/Kane, then Levy will be back to the days of languishing mid-table whilst hiring and firing managers like Ramos and AVB. As it stands Levy's record is being terrible at negotiating commercial deals, being mediocre at concluding transfer deals and being mediocre at selecting managers (Pochettino being the exception of course). The manager is far, far more important to Spurs compared with the chairman and it's clear the former is looking for bold investment in the transfer market. Why the fans aren't backing up their manager and passing on this pressure is beyond me.
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This is just ridiculous hyperbole to the other side. Levy is a huge part of the reason we're not languishing in the championship like Villa or Leeds or recently relegated and in midtable like Newcastle or nowhere near the top 4 like Everton.

Its not an either/or, black and white situation where Levy= bad and Poch= good.
 
africanspur said:
The 100 million already borrowed was from a 200 million loan which was replaced, not added to, by the 400 million loan. Its in the official link provided by that other poster above.

Anyone who genuinely believes Spurs have ploughed 850 mil of their own money into the stadium project is living in cloud cuckoo land.
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It’s not really clear that the £100m already drawn has been paid back yet though unless I’m missing something. It’s been taken from the same bank so is it not likely to have been put on top of the existing debt? It doesn’t make much sense to borrow money to pay back money you’ve borrowed.
 
Donk87 said:
The £400m loan replaces the previous financing agreement of which 100m had been drawn so I believe that's already factored in.

The caveat is I don't work in finance so if there's any experts out there who can confirm this that would be great.
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I’m no expert either but I don’t see why it would’ve been. Unless it’s a much smaller percentage in which case it doesn’t make great business sense from the bank.
 
acnumber9 said:
It’s not really clear that the £100m already drawn has been paid back yet though unless I’m missing something. It’s been taken from the same bank so is it not likely to have been put on top of the existing debt? It doesn’t make much sense to borrow money to pay back money you’ve borrowed.
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I'm not saying it has been paid back, I am saying it would make a part of the £400 million that was subsequently taken out. Hence the use of the word replaced.

For example, if I let you know that I would need £10 from you to buy an iron, you gave me £5 and I subsequently realised I actually needed £20. I wouldn't need an extra 20. Just an extra 10. The second loan has replaced the first one, not added to it.
 
africanspur said:
This is just ridiculous hyperbole to the other side. Levy is a huge part of the reason we're not languishing in the championship like Villa or Leeds or recently relegated and in midtable like Newcastle or nowhere near the top 4 like Everton.

Its not an either/or, black and white situation where Levy= bad and Poch= good.
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I think if we lost Poch we'd also lose a number of key players who love playing under him, which would be incredibly damaging to the team. Especially with our inconsistent record when it comes to transfers, replacing the likes of Eriksen and Kane would be practically an impossibility. Pochettino is the main reason we have been making the top four, he's responsible for the development of the team, before he came in we actually finished behind Everton in the 2013/2014 season, and had completely messed up replacing Redknapp.

Levy is responsible for rescuing the club from disaster, but Pochettino deserves pretty much all the praise for building this squad, in my opinion. I think without him we would be a top six side but comfortably outside the top four, and if we lost him we would probably go back to that long term. The team he took over was pretty woeful in all honesty, and he's been provided with pretty meagre resources in comparison with his competitors. If we lost Poch and hired a new manager, it would be incredibly unlikely we'd strike gold again and find a manager capable of keeping us up there whilst also spending very little, especially since lots of players who are loyal to Poch would want out.
 
finneh said:
If Pochettino leaves and is followed by the likes of Alli/Erikson/Kane, then Levy will be back to the days of languishing mid-table whilst hiring and firing managers like Ramos and AVB. As it stands Levy's record is being terrible at negotiating commercial deals, being mediocre at concluding transfer deals and being mediocre at selecting managers (Pochettino being the exception of course). The manager is far, far more important to Spurs compared with the chairman and it's clear the former is looking for bold investment in the transfer market. Why the fans aren't backing up their manager and passing on this pressure is beyond me.
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Vast majority of us are. It's only die hard Levy loyalists like Glaston that aren't rightfully annoyed at the complete lack of movement in the transfer market so far. Most Spurs fans I know are very frustrated that the best manager we have had in a very, very long time has been completely ignored despite what he's done for the club. I wouldn't at all blame him if we missed out on top four and he wanted to leave, he absolutely deserves to be fully backed by the board after all the incredible work he's done for us.

Team was in dire straits until Poch took over. Ignore the off the pitch stuff, we were a total mess as an actual football team. No long term philosophy, just random hiring and firing. We went from Redknapp to an AVB bore fest, mostly wasted the Bale fee on trash tier players who didn't actually care about playing for us. Got absolutely smashed to bits by any half decent side we faced. Board don't deserve credit for making us a top four side, Poch does.
 
africanspur said:
I'm not saying it has been paid back, I am saying it would make a part of the £400 million that was subsequently taken out. Hence the use of the word replaced.

For example, if I let you know that I would need £10 from you to buy an iron, you gave me £5 and I subsequently realised I actually needed £20. I wouldn't need an extra 20. Just an extra 10. The second loan has replaced the first one, not added to it.
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It’s a £400m facility which to me means they can take £400m from it for stadium costs. They did have a £200m facility from which they’ve already taken £100m. Which has been replaced. To me that means if they use all that new facility then they’ve borrowed £500m. Of course they might not need the whole £400m. The statement says £340m has already been spent so if the stadium costs are as high as you’re saying then it seems to me that they will be using it all. In which case they’ve borrowed over £500m.
 
KM said:
Of course but when the other teams have improved, it does count as going backwards as a team.
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Yeah that's true, but it's a big if as teams on the whole have a tendancy to go backwards as often as they improve. Especially in the PL in the last 5 years or so.

I mean, City improved last year, but before that they were leaping backwards and forwards from one year to the next...they might even do the same again for all anyone knows yet. Liverpool until last year have not significantly improved for me, and even last year if you take the CL run out, they didn't really. United I think have improved in the last few years, but the majority on here would argue otherwise. Chelsea cetainly haven't...they've been all over the place. Arsenal have gotten progressively worse from one year to the next.

I think the bigger problem is that if you keep the team the same too long it tends to go a bit stale, or the hunger starts to disappear...but that usually happens as a result of success. If they are serious about winning trophies I think they need to sign better players. If Pochettino wants to be taken seriously as a top manager he needs to start winning things...or at least stop claiming he is happy not to. If the idea is to just be in amongst the top four though, I don't thnk they'll go too far wrong.
 
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