Solskjaer's legacy and his future

stevoc said:
And yet by the time Solkjaer took over LVG and Mourinho had amassed a shit load of it in the squad and failed to shift much of it on.
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Personally, I think they were both past it when they came.
One was here for like one season, and the other was always known for buying players who would not be good long term. Of course they failed with the deadwood. Jose is not very good anymore. The other didn't even get another management job until just recent.

like I said, any competent manager is identifying what players fit their current/future plans and which don't, or has staff that does that. This is not like some crazy awesome thing that was just discovered. The most basic of clubs are doing this if they want to be successful. Our club is just run like amateurs are in charge.
 
Eli Zee said:
Personally, I think they were both past it when they came.
One was here for like one season, and the other was always known for buying players who would not be good long term. Of course they failed with the deadwood. Jose is not very good anymore. The other didn't even get another management job until just recent.

like I said, any competent manager is identifying what players fit their current/future plans and which don't, or has staff that does that. This is not like some crazy awesome thing that was just discovered. The most basic of clubs are doing this if they want to be successful. Our club is just run like amateurs are in charge.
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No but if as you admit two managers over the course of almost 5 years failed to clear them out then it's a positive when someone eventually does, yes?
 
stevoc said:
No but if as you admit two managers over the course of almost 5 years failed to clear them out then it's a positive when someone eventually does, yes?
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Yes. It's positive. That being said, my point is that it is nothing special. People say Ole cleared the deadwood as if he did something amazing, but it's to be expected from any manager at a top club. Any top club has staff in place for identifying potential future players. I was just saying I hate when people use this "cleared deadwood" thing as some amazing work no one else would have accomplished. Just because jose and lvg sucked doesn't mean all managers do.

Ole is lucky he was at a club that could afford to replace the players that weren't goood enough for us. Imagine if he had to work with a team that didn't have the quality we have... he'd have been relegated
 
Eli Zee said:
Yes. It's positive. That being said, my point is that it is nothing special. People say Ole cleared the deadwood as if he did something amazing, but it's to be expected from any manager at a top club. Any top club has staff in place for identifying potential future players. I was just saying I hate when people use this "cleared deadwood" thing as some amazing work no one else would have accomplished. Just because jose and lvg sucked doesn't mean all managers do.

Ole is lucky he was at a club that could afford to replace the players that weren't goood enough for us. Imagine if he had to work with a team that didn't have the quality we have... he'd have been relegated
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And again by your own admission the previous two didn't do it and to be fair all I said was he got rid of the deadwood. Which was a positive but I never actually said it was an amazing achievement did I?
 
Eli Zee said:
Yes. It's positive. That being said, my point is that it is nothing special. People say Ole cleared the deadwood as if he did something amazing, but it's to be expected from any manager at a top club. Any top club has staff in place for identifying potential future players. I was just saying I hate when people use this "cleared deadwood" thing as some amazing work no one else would have accomplished. Just because jose and lvg sucked doesn't mean all managers do.

Ole is lucky he was at a club that could afford to replace the players that weren't goood enough for us. Imagine if he had to work with a team that didn't have the quality we have... he'd have been relegated
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He wouldnt have been relegated, he would have been sacked.

I went from Ole In to Ole Out, I dont think footballs as binary as people in both camps make out.

Yes clearing the deadwood is something you would expect a competent manager to do, however not having bought the deadwood in the first place is also something you would expect from a competent manager yet we had these players at the club under LVG and Mourinho, both managers who would be described as competent by any measure.

Ole had to go because he wasn't tactically good enough and im not sure how good a place he left us in terms of "progress" but at the time he was brought in he was needed IMO. My love for the club was at its lowest ebb when Jose left because I saw a group of players who didn't seem to care and thats harder to watch than a group of players losing. Ole changed all that around and while it cant be measured with "facts" or "stats", it happened and we all saw it. I also think that while those who pulled apart his deficiencies as a coach were ultimately correct, he did well enough in the post to justify not being sacked and indeed I think the backlash against the club had he been sacked would have been far far greater than the rumbling about him being kept on. He deserved to be in post at the start of the season to demonstrate that 2nd place last season wasn't down to the "unique circumstances" of the campaign. He fell way short but he deserved the chance.

Football is an emotional game. Ive seen all the titles under Fergie so while I want us to win every league and every cup I can accept that we dont. And if we dont what are we left with? Moments. Moments that make you go "wow" and Ole gave me a pile of them as a coach. Maybe not always for the best circumstances but winning 3-2 from 2-0 down, last minute equalisers and the like are moments that you cannot explain to a non-football fan but will stay with me for a long time. As will the press conferenced when it became clear Ronaldo was coming back.

He needed to go but he deserves to go with respect and not back stabbing comments IMO.
 
NewUser777 said:
I know what it is. I’ve done it and taken an education in it. Not in it anymore, but my kids coaches have higher standard than you lot give Ole credit for. And it’s a progressive sport. I don’t know shit when I sit down with his coaches. The simplicity spout on here is beyond embarrassing. Good on you for carrying some experience! Then you know you don’t blame anyone else for the shit show some of our players have been serving. You take responsibility. How many times did you preform like shit looking at your coaches for blame!? I can’t remember a single time!
I can’t. I can’t find a reliable source anywhere. All click bait. There are so much academic criticism to lay out, but all I read is piss takes, drama and blame game. Get real mate :lol:
How did Klopp fare in his fourth year? How did Liverpool play? Did Tottenham immediately change their fortune once Conte came in? Simple takes on complex problems is the biggest of downfalls. The word from within the club is he did a very good job setting the club up for success. Fair enough odds catched up with him this season, but come on! Have some self respect, and to Ole for the job he did.
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Are you telling me you couldn't see what Klopp, for example, was doing? With Ole nothing seemed to change.

He himself said he wasn't involved in the coaching aspect. He himself spoke about taking a break. He himself said ultimately as manager it was his decision.

It's not a pisstakenor drama to suggest that after a hammering from Watford going on holiday was unreasonable. It's not drama to suggest that the players fitness didn't improve even though Ole himself wanted them fitter etc.

Yes it's a progressive sport. Klopp showed us what progression is we went backwards. Not sure how we can deny that.
 
His legacy would be stabilizing the club in short term after Mourinho meltdown. Everything after that has been a massive waste of time and resources, the technical and tactical development of the squad basically halted under him and a number of players went backwards.

He lucked into an opportunity of a lifetime, whereby appalling lack of standards at the club, couple with us getting an unusually high number of penalties meant we always over-performed to where we are which were enough for successive Top 4 finish which in itself are lowest points threshold in last decade in PL. Him being hailed as a messiah who laid the foundation for future is absolutely laughable.
 
Even after everything, it was nice to hear his song ringing out last night. He’s a terrible manager, yes, but he gave the fans the greatest moment. Especially poignant in a week where Benitez had to endure Liverpool fans ridiculing him.
 
devips said:
Don't be stupid. I never said he cannot be sacked. What I want as a United fan is minimum respect for a club legend who had tried to play good football while he coached United and brought them to second place in the league and a place in the europa finals. (may not seem much to you, but you are not the only guy in the world)
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He left us exactly where he took over. He did not win anything. Zilch. His playing and his managing this club are two different things. As a player he was a legend for scoring that goal. As a manager he was no better and actually even worse than Jose and LVG. Just because he smiled a lot and was a pleasant character does not mean he was successful.
 
InspiRED said:
Guessing on behalf of this poster but I think it means they don't think the manager is good enough to manage the club.

Think this is specifically why the poster used the verb 'think' and not 'know'. Also how do you know you're not gonna get run over when you next cross a road? The simple fact is, you don't know etc...

Unless your point is basically that other people shouldn't be allowed to think things that don't align with your own viewpoints. Which is a different but, I would wager, still fairly substantial problem!
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You obviously prefer cheap sarcasm to thinking, but the point should be clear enough: A view is just a view. It's not a fact. So if you personally decided OGS wasn't good enough two years ago, that doesn't raise the question of why people continued to support him after that time. It is pointless to discuss this, or anything, if you don't accept that there's a distinction between your own conviction and actual fact. Also, I frankly question the relevance of deciding a manager isn't good enough on a basis other than observable results.
 
justsomebloke said:
You obviously prefer cheap sarcasm to thinking, but the point should be clear enough: A view is just a view. It's not a fact. So if you personally decided OGS wasn't good enough two years ago, that doesn't raise the question of why people continued to support him after that time. It is pointless to discuss this, or anything, if you don't accept that there's a distinction between your own conviction and actual fact. Also, I frankly question the relevance of deciding a manager isn't good enough on a basis other than observable results.
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Ok, great let's check "observable results" of Ole's career as of exactly two years ago (3 December 2019):

1. Initial success at Molde, albeit with more resources than others in Norwegian League. Subsequent worsening of observable results in the league, no titles after the first two seasons. Both times he left Molde improved with new managers and won titles.

2. Cardiff - took them 17th in the league, finished 20th. Was 17th in Championship after spending 40m. After he left they improved. Observable results just bad.

3. United interim - initial great run followed by bad form. In terms of observable results - in the end he took us from 6th to 6th in the league, won against PSG, crashed against Barca. Not bad at all for an interim but nothing super impressive. I mean Di Matteo won CL with Chelsea in similar situation, and where is he now.

4. United full time- after 150m spent in the summer on 3 December 2019 we were 9th. 9th. I repeat - 9th! And you are talking like this season crash was Ole's first real blip.

Yes we improved after that in 2020 - 1 half 2021, before crashing this season, but based on "observable results" 2 years ago the only "fact and results-based" conclusion one could reach at the time is that Ole is likely a very poor manager, at least on highest levels. I do not see how you can argue otherwise.
 
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justsomebloke said:
You obviously prefer cheap sarcasm to thinking, but the point should be clear enough: A view is just a view. It's not a fact. So if you personally decided OGS wasn't good enough two years ago, that doesn't raise the question of why people continued to support him after that time. It is pointless to discuss this, or anything, if you don't accept that there's a distinction between your own conviction and actual fact. Also, I frankly question the relevance of deciding a manager isn't good enough on a basis other than observable results.
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Max_United said:
Ok, great let's check "observable results" of Ole's career as of exactly two years ago (3 December 2019):

1. Initial success at Molde, albeit with more resources than others in Norwegian League. Subsequent worsening of observable results in the league, no titles after the first two seasons. Both times he left Molde improved with new managers and won titles.

2. Cardiff - took them 17th in the league, finished 20th. Was 17th in Championship after spending 40m. After he left they improved. Observable results just bad.

3. United interim - initial great run followed by bad form. In terms of observable results - in the end he took us from 6th to 6th in the league, won against PSG, crashed against Barca. Not bad at all for an interim but nothing super impressive. I mean Di Matteo won CL with Chelsea in similar situation, and where is he now.

4. United full time- after 150m spent in the summer on 3 December 2019 we were 9th. 9th. I repeat - 9th! And you are talking like this season crash was Ole's first real blip.

Yes we improved after that in 2020 - 1 half 2021, before crashing this season, but based on "observable results" 2 years ago the only "fact and results-based" conclusion one could reach at the time is that Ole is likely a very poor manager, at least on highest levels. I do not see how you can argue otherwise.
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This basically.

But to answer your points specifically
1_ No i don't prefer cheap sarcasm, I'm trying to logically address your points.
2. Yes, I agree. I did point out that view (thinking) and fact (knowing) are different things and you told me I was sarcastic.
3. I'm struggling to make sense of this point tbh. I had no problem with people continuing to support him. I didn't agree with them for about 90% of the time but people always have rights to their views in my book. Has to be said there was a very clear absence of this sentiment on the other side of this particular debate as many who raised issues they had with Ole's management were often met not with criticisms of what they wrote, but with accusations that they were some kind of fundamentally bad human being. Which was a bit shit.
4. I would fundamentally question your own logic here. By your token, the only evidence on which to formulate an opinion on a manager is observable results. I mean that's just absolutely ridiculous honestly. every fan has got the right to formulate opinions based on how the team is playing, past history of the manager, money spent, etc.

I still think your main gripe is just that people don't agree with you. You have no right whatsoever to be telling people what they can and cannot use in order to establish their own viewpoints. Who made you the arbiter of reason based decision making? No-one did is the answer!
 
NewUser777 said:
Not really. Highly subjective, besides the last paragraph. No one knows. We will see, but no one knows from the outside. It was the same people calling him an idiot thinking Pereira was good enough. The minute he could replace him, he did. Who knows what he thought about McFred. Not much options for the man. And who knows how much they tried replacing them. This week Grealish comes out with something we didn’t know the extent of. Players didn’t preform this season. That’s down to his responsibility. End of. Finally showing your true face there Robbie, for all the intermediate role you trying to play..
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Almost replied but then saw this car crash of a post so I’ll leave you to it.

NewUser777 said:
I know what it is. I’ve done it and taken an education in it. Not in it anymore, but my kids coaches have higher standard than you lot give Ole credit for. And it’s a progressive sport. I don’t know shit when I sit down with his coaches. The simplicity spout on here is beyond embarrassing. Good on you for carrying some experience! Then you know you don’t blame anyone else for the shit show some of our players have been serving. You take responsibility. How many times did you preform like shit looking at your coaches for blame!? I can’t remember a single time!
I can’t. I can’t find a reliable source anywhere. All click bait. There are so much academic criticism to lay out, but all I read is piss takes, drama and blame game. Get real mate :lol:
How did Klopp fare in his fourth year? How did Liverpool play? Did Tottenham immediately change their fortune once Conte came in? Simple takes on complex problems is the biggest of downfalls. The word from within the club is he did a very good job setting the club up for success. Fair enough odds catched up with him this season, but come on! Have some self respect, and to Ole for the job he did.
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The man is a true Manchester United legend, and no matter what some reactionary fans say, that will never change. Yes, he wasn’t great tactically. Yes, he played up to 5 players all the way to the end who constantly let him and the fans down. But while that should already never take away from what he did as a player, he also did leave us in a better place than Mourinho, and the fact he spoke to Ralf to give him a proper grasp on the team is simply wonderful. The mark of a real man and Manchester United legend. No sulking, and every single action done for the good of the club, in this case 5 minutes after losing the dream job he’ll never get back, after sadly getting ridiculed worldwide. This is the measure of the man we’re talking about. I can imagine him willing Ronaldo’s penalty against Arsenal in in front of his TV just as we did.

Thank you Ole, and just know in the slim chance that you’re reading this that by the end, the fans turned on your managerial ability, not you as a person. We all still love you. I just hope you didn’t tell Rangnick that McKenna, Phelan and McFred are the way to go :D

Good luck for the future. It goes without saying that he’ll always be welcome as a United fan and to Old Trafford. Imagine the rapturous applause he’ll receive!
 
Another thing to add: he was on the verge of tears after the Watford game. Yet another example of a man who just wants the best for United. The job had worn him down so much and it was just the fact he didn’t want to give up that kept him from quitting. I think the decision was best for both Man United and a Man United legend.
 
i hammered ole for his managerial shortcomings, but i was right.
 
MalaysianRed7 said:
Too much Ole disrespect going around the fan base tbf. I mean, the man has been sacked now, but many people are still hell bent on castigating him.
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Most of us fans know what he is. A Legend. He gave his all for the dream job not his fault the directors are idiots. Nothing but respect for Ole. But his tenure is a typical example of not overstaying your welcome.
 
Look, if we didn't jump the gun after that first month or so he wouldn't even have got the job permanently due to how he ended that season.
 
I hammered him and the coaches and seeing both Ole and Carrick's leaving interviews it's a sad situation both love the club but we need to move on this squad is capable of more than a 4th place finish
 
This is going to turn into an Ole bashing thread.

Anyway

Ole assembled a good team. He had a few good runs, particularly the away run.
 
I hammered Ole for his lack of managerial skills, his favoritism of players, his rushing players back too soon after injury his lack of developing youth, his lack of in game tactics..

But I was right.
 
MalaysianRed7 said:
The man is a true Manchester United legend, and no matter what some reactionary fans say, that will never change. Yes, he wasn’t great tactically. Yes, he played up to 5 players all the way to the end who constantly let him and the fans down. But while that should already never take away from what he did as a player, he also did leave us in a better place than Mourinho, and the fact he spoke to Ralf to give him a proper grasp on the team is simply wonderful. The mark of a real man and Manchester United legend. No sulking, and every single action done for the good of the club, in this case 5 minutes after losing the dream job he’ll never get back, after sadly getting ridiculed worldwide. This is the measure of the man we’re talking about. I can imagine him willing Ronaldo’s penalty against Arsenal in in front of his TV just as we did.

Thank you Ole, and just know in the slim chance that you’re reading this that by the end, the fans turned on your managerial ability, not you as a person. We all still love you. I just hope you didn’t tell Rangnick that McKenna, Phelan and McFred are the way to go :D

Good luck for the future. It goes without saying that he’ll always be welcome as a United fan and to Old Trafford. Imagine the rapturous applause he’ll receive!
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The McPhela McFred combo Happy Meal

Also, it's probably not wise for a player or manager to visit places like these :lol: There's enough critics to deal with, and enough drama to show up to at conferences they get fined if they declined.

Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I’m looking forward to Ole soon being praised for any success that Ragnick achieves. :drool:
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He did lay some groundworks. The squad building was pretty decent, it's mostly the team building that's missing, especially on a strategic and tactically resilient level. At the top you need more than good players who like each other. Perhaps a player like Ruben Neves or a more defensively based midfielder would have been a good extra touch, but even this squad boasts a lot of talent that could have been utilitzed way better.


I thought Ole had more promise, but he lacks adaptability and creativity in the long run. Some ideas and formations were very good, but his first few games with the Lebron Pogba tactic worked for like 5 games and between then and now, with the material there, there could have been more than the few runs of form and the occasional tactical greatness/luck (with the amount of them it almost seems like lucky guesses, in hindsight... especially with him usually copying those tactics in 3-4 games afterwards to [almost] no avail...).

He seems really nice, a little pandering and arrogant at times, but it was nice to see a friendly approach to tactics at a big club. It showed promise, but in the end you need more than 'the right atmosphere' when leading a large group of people in a competitive field. Hope he finds a place where his skills can excel some more and where he can grow at his own pace, instead of the kick-and-rush you in the face that you get in the BPL and CL
 
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Ole's a crap coach, but I'll always love the man.

At the end of the day though he could have walked after Liverpool or City results, the fan base would have probably respected him more, but he chose the money (not blaming him, most would) and out stayed his welcome with some fans.
 
He did the job he was asked to do and people are too quick to forget that. When he arrived we were in disarray. Fans at the game spent more time in the terraces than watching the matches and most I spoke to had stopped enjoying game. The squad was bloated with over paid dross and the team had lost its way big time. Ole turned that around big time and got us in the right direction.

Now I'm not for one second saying he should/could have kept his job. Having turned us round we needed to kick on and start winning and although he could get us close he couldn't take that extra step. In the end the players let him down massively with some shocking performances but with hindsight maybe that's what was needed to take action on a situation before it came truly toxic.

I'll always love Ole, as a player and as a manager he always gave this club everything and he's the true definition of a legend.

So sad as well that we lost Carrick this week. Not enough praise has ever been given to that man, but he's given us 15 year.

Thank you Ole and Michael
 
Typical predictable negative posters jumping in on cue. Ironically they will probably miss Ole more than the posters who like the guy.

They will have to find something else to feed their full time negative posting.

Im worried for some, hope Ralf gets a good start or it will be ‘what’s he actually won’ and ‘why hasn’t he managed a big club before.’
 
I hammered Ole for his managerial shortcomings, but I was arrested and charged with assault with a deadly weapon and sentenced to 25 years in prison.
 
arthurka said:
Most of us fans know what he is. A Legend. He gave his all for the dream job not his fault the directors are idiots. Nothing but respect for Ole. But his tenure is a typical example of not overstaying your welcome.
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This is spot on. He should have been sacked long before he was, maybe even after the Villarreal debacle. However, he never ever stopped working and is not giving the new man any advice he is qualified to. I was a fervent critic because some games, especially the Liverpool and City ones were genuinely putrid and disgraceful, but I don’t think it’s right for anyone to continue digging him out now. I’ve seen people criticising him (in a serious way) for speaking to Ralf.
 
redflash said:
When he arrived we were in disarray.
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As opposed to how we were when he left :lol:. On less points, in worse league position, worse GD and after 4 humilations to Leicester, Liverpool, City & Watford.

Ole’s an absolute legend and seems a genuinely lovely bloke, but he did nothing remotely special here as manager, and ultimately left the club more in disarray than Mourinho and with zero trophies to show for it.
 
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He was a great player, a legend that helped us win the treble. By all accounts a good person.
But he was a terrible manager who's successes with us, in whatever form they took, are vastly overstated.

However, it's done. It's over. Ole is gone. Let's just move on.
 
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