Solskjaer's legacy and his future

[stevoc]

Probably because it's not true.

We played better football in Jose's first 18 months than we did for any extended period under Ole.

In Jose's first and second seasons the football went dogshit after Xmas both seasons. In fact apart from the first few months of 17-18 the football from an entertainment point of view wasn't much of a step up from LVG ball.

I for the most part enjoyed the football more over the last 2 seasons than the previous 6, there were some dark days under Jose, Moyes and Van Gaal. Especially that period under LVG where managing a shot on target in a game was seen as a positive.

 

[KingCavani]

His football was awful even in the season where we finished second in my opinion. I remember just watching dead matches where the players would just lump it up to Lukaku and Ibrahimovic. The guy couldn't even get 2 players to score 10 or more league goals a season. That's how bad it was.

We created loads in that first season. Zlatan should have had 30 goals. Our best XG differentials came in games where we drew where we were almost laughably wasteful.

The start of the second season we were murdering teams 4-0 pretty regularly and looked incredible on the counter. It all went to shit when Pogba/Jose fell out in January and everything after that period is all people seem to remember.

 

[SAFMUTD]

The club has won three champions league titles and he scored the winner in one of those. Forlan and Chicharito are fan favorites. Ole with more than a 100 goals for the club is safely a legend.

It's a matter of opinion, I don't held him in such high regard. I think having 20-30 "legend status" players diminish the title. Im more of a "selective" kind of guy.

Always liked Ole as a player, but as I said I just don't rate him that high.

 

[MalaysianRed7]

On your one visit to Old Trafford did you notice the Alex Ferguson Statue outside the East stand, the entire north stand that is named after him or the massive tribute banner in that stand?

I’m sorry, I genuinely feel for people like you. You’ve misinterpreted my words beyond belief.

 

[Suedesi]

Yeah it's like they're the same person or something.

You're just proving my point; you shouldn't conflate the two roles

 

[Greck]

The good:

• Consecutive top 4 finishes (failed by David Moyes, Jose Mourinho and Louis Van Gaal)
• Top 4 finishes where the goakeeper didn't finish as our player of the year
• Memorable signings such as Ronaldo, Bruno Fernandes, Cavani unlike the forgettable, deadwood players from Louis Van Gaal's era
• Generally far more aesthetically pleasing football than Mourinho or Van Gaal (I am always shocked when I see people arguing otherwise)
• The return of multiple players capbale of scoring 10 or more league goals in a season (yep, it really was that bad under Mourinho and Van Gaal!!)

The bad:

Failure to win a trophy - even Mourinho and Van Gaal acomplished this (negated by dross football and/or pretty meaningless trophies in my opinion)

An absolutely shambolic season this year.

Downplaying actual trophies has to be the most ridiculous thing doing here recently. Top 4 finishes also aren't a feat on their own. If they were we'd be weighing it against the embarrassing CL campaign it came with. "Yipee we qualified for the CL then quickly ended up in the europa league a couple months later. Top 4 whoop whoop. Progress". This is the monumental feat you're putting ahead of winning actual freaking silverware.

At least Jose and LVG had a method to their dull football that showed when we needed to win finals matches. Ole's stagnant football had no such redeeming moments. Oh yea except achieveing top 4 for the Glazers pockets. Whoop whoop I guess.

 

[RUCK4444]

Downplaying actual trophies has to be the most ridiculous thing doing here recently. Top 4 finishes also aren't a feat on their own. If they were we'd be weighing it against the embarrassing CL campaign it came with. "Yipee we qualified for the CL then quickly ended up in the europa league a couple months later. Top 4 whoop whoop. Progress". This is the monumental feat you're putting ahead of winning actual freaking silverware.

Where you finish in the league table is a barometer for progress as much as any other.

 

[Greck]

Where you finish in the league table is a barometer for progress as much as any other.

and we were 8th on the table when he was sacked, which was 2 places worse than where Jose left us. How's that for progress barometers?

 

[Idxomer]

Where you finish in the league table is a barometer for progress as much as any other.

How you finish in the league is the real barometer.

Mourinho got 69 points+two trophies and 81 points+an the FA Cup final in his 1st two seasons. We had no real progress on the pitch, similar to Ole without the winning trophies bit. That's why both ended their time in a similar fashion.

 

[Josh 76]

The good:

• Consecutive top 4 finishes (failed by David Moyes, Jose Mourinho and Louis Van Gaal)
• Top 4 finishes where the goakeeper didn't finish as our player of the year
• Memorable signings such as Ronaldo, Bruno Fernandes, Cavani unlike the forgettable, deadwood players from Louis Van Gaal's era
• Generally far more aesthetically pleasing football than Mourinho or Van Gaal (I am always shocked when I see people arguing otherwise)
• The return of multiple players capbale of scoring 10 or more league goals in a season (yep, it really was that bad under Mourinho and Van Gaal!!)

The bad:

Failure to win a trophy - even Mourinho and Van Gaal acomplished this (negated by dross football and/or pretty meaningless trophies in my opinion)

An absolutely shambolic season this year.

The Unforgivable:
0-5 to them !

 

[Client6]

You need to improve your reading comprehension. You haven’t properly addressed a single point I made, so I’ll spell it out again.

Ole is getting a banner displayed in the Stretty in his first home game after leaving, for what, I’m not too sure. Did Fergie get one in that 0-0 draw against Chelsea in 2013? No, I thought as much. Fergie’s banners are those plastered on to the stand in recognition for his achievements, and deservedly so. Funnily enough, Ole also has one for what he did as a player.

Also, Ole’s achievements as a player have been celebrated time and time again in the multitude of songs dedicated to him, and we will continue to sing about May 1999, as we should. He is still a legend. Will we keep singing about LvG or Mourinho? No, because they are not legends. However, why is Ole getting this extra tribute when they didn’t after their respective sackings? Both won more trophies than Ole, even if Mourinho did shit talk the club, which should have had him sacked after that Sevilla game, the one good point you made. Mourinho also won 2.5 trophies and got 2nd place too.

Also, what does ‘regular fans’ mean? I genuinely do not understand so please elaborate. I can assure you that I have as much, if not more, emotional connection to our legends as anyone, so don’t worry about that. Forget the bona fide legends, I still have loads of affiliation for the likes of Rafael, Park and even Dan James, simply for always representing us with passion.

Also, the Lampard thing is different. Lampard is to them what Sir Bobby Charlton is to us.

So you have an emotional connection as strong as anyone, if not more, to our legends but you don't understand why Ole gets this "extra" tribute? Right, carry on.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

We created loads in that first season. Zlatan should have had 30 goals. Our best XG differentials came in games where we drew where we were almost laughably wasteful.

This gets brought up a lot, probably because there were a couple of memorably wasteful games that season - Burnley at home probably the standout - but it isn't really true.

We scored a shambolic 54 goals that season, and the XG numbers say it wasn't because the finishing was particularly bad - going by Understat, our XG for the season was 57.

Ibrahimovic always gets hammered for his so-called poor finishing that season too, again because he did mess up a few easy chances. But he overperformed his XG over the season too - 17 goals vs 15 expected. If my memory serves me right it was actually Mata who produced a few shockers in those high-XG draws you're probably referring to.

 

[stevoc]

I’m sorry, I genuinely feel for people like you. You’ve misinterpreted my words beyond belief.

Thanks for your concern mate but no need I'm fine. I was simply pointing out nonsense.

 

[stevoc]

You're just proving my point; you shouldn't conflate the two roles

I was half joking but out of interest can you give me an example of someone conflating the roles?

 

[Suedesi]

I was half joking but out of interest can you give me an example of someone conflating the roles?

I dunno, maybe half the CAF up til 2-3 months ago when discussing Ole the manager with such misty eyed sentimentality and nostalgia

 

[stevoc]

I dunno, maybe half the CAF up til 2-3 months ago when discussing Ole the manager with such misty eyed sentimentality and nostalgia

I don't know if that was down to people conflating the role of a player that retired in 2008 and a manager that took over in 2019.

 

[Suedesi]

I don't know if that was down to people conflating the role of a player that retired in 2008 and a manager that took over in 2019.

It's simple - if he hadn't played for us, he'd never even be in the running to manage Man Utd full time. He certainly wasn't qualified to!

He didn't get a job on the basis of his CV, or specific achievements in the game, he was appointed to fix the toxic mood because of some particular set of circumstances. Did alright in the interim period, his pals in the media bigged him up and applied pressure for him to get the job, Woodpecker relented and that was it.

Going forward, neither pundits nor fans used an objective lens in assessing his coaching/managing which was mediocre at best (with nonsense arguments like "away record" or "2nd in the league", conveniently ignoring the repeated failures to win a trophy, the record in Europe and the fact that Liverpool had no defence last year whereas Chelsea put all their eggs in winning the CL basket).

How do you view his legacy as Man Utd manager?

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

It's a matter of opinion, I don't held him in such high regard. I think having 20-30 "legend status" players diminish the title. Im more of a "selective" kind of guy.

Always liked Ole as a player, but as I said I just don't rate him that high.

I agree with you on the bolded, but for me, i watched that 99 final with 6 of my mates who are Anti-United, when Ole scored that winner, I celebrated Simone style if you what I mean, in front of those 6 haters, so for me I see Ole as a United legend

 

[Denis79]

Wonder how many questioning whether or not Soslkjaer is a club legend came to this realisation before or after the last 18-24 months. Doubt many thought about it before 2019.

I think many who never saw him play only see him as the manager who failed. Wonder if the same would have happened if it was Cantona or someone similar of even greater status at the club was in his position.

 

[Max_United]

Downplaying actual trophies has to be the most ridiculous thing doing here recently. Top 4 finishes also aren't a feat on their own. If they were we'd be weighing it against the embarrassing CL campaign it came with. "Yipee we qualified for the CL then quickly ended up in the europa league a couple months later. Top 4 whoop whoop. Progress". This is the monumental feat you're putting ahead of winning actual freaking silverware.

At least Jose and LVG had a method to their dull football that showed when we needed to win finals matches. Ole's stagnant football had no such redeeming moments. Oh yea except achieveing top 4 for the Glazers pockets. Whoop whoop I guess.

I might be biased or misremembering but I really feel like before Ole the overwhelming opinion here was that "ultimately trophies are what matter". The mocking of Arsenal for "top-4 trophy" was constant. Yes, caf turned mostly against LvG and Jose in the end due to style of football and not good enough results, but the fact that even in post-Fergie slump we won trophies was the source of pride and the stick used to beat fans of other well performing but tropheyless clubs like Spurs. Then under Ole suddenly a large portion of fans started bigging up "consecutive top4 finishes" trophy

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

Be realisstic. You can't sack someone for losing a final. There was multiple times to sack him a long the course of his tenure - but that's not it. IF anything he probably should have been sacked for dropping out of the Champions League so limply.

LvG was sacked after WINNING a final. So of course you can.

 

[Lynty]

LvG was sacked after WINNING a final. So of course you can.

True say

 

[stevoc]

I think many who never saw him play only see him as the manager who failed. Wonder if the same would have happened if it was Cantona or someone similar of even greater status at the club was in his position.

Yep no doubt age plays a part. Even Fergie could have come out of retirement and he would have got the same abuse from some if he hadn't won anything.

 

[Client6]

Yep no doubt age plays a part. Even Fergie could have come out of retirement and he would have got the same abuse from some if he hadn't won anything.

But couldn't you separate Fergie 2013 from Fergie 2021? Dedicating a statue and a stand to Fergie 2013 is one thing but any "extra" tributes to Fergie 2021?

 

[Eli Zee]

So you have an emotional connection as strong as anyone, if not more, to our legends but you don't understand why Ole gets this "extra" tribute? Right, carry on.

"You're fired for not being good enough at your job, but here's a going away party to make you feel better."

legend for what he did as a player.Deserves nothing as a coach but since he was our legend of a player, we will be nice about it.

You should read the story of dan gable if you wanna see the type of person we'd want to come back and coach the team after finishing his career here. Dan gable was an undefeated college wrestler until he lost the last match of his college wrestling career, he then went on to win the Olympics without getting a single point scored on him in the whole tournament. He then came back years later to coach his college team and turned it into a fecking powerhouse after two years or so.

Ole was never going to be someone who could accomplish that with any team of players. He's too nice.. lacks in the technical department as well as experience-wise. We always needed someone who would be more ruthless and get the most out of each player, while still having the tactics and management skill.

 

[stevoc]

It's simple - if he hadn't played for us, he'd never even be in the running to manage Man Utd full time. He certainly wasn't qualified to!

Perhaps but the club have done that several times now post Ferguson.

How do you view his legacy as Man Utd manager?

Came in steadied the ship, got rid of a load of deadwood, built a good squad, was good in the league but ultimately fell short in the latter stages of cup competitions.

For me he did a decent job before this season but after the start to this season had to go. Should really have been replaced a month before he was.

 

[stevoc]

But couldn't you separate Fergie 2013 from Fergie 2021? Dedicating a statue and a stand to Fergie 2013 is one thing but any "extra" tributes to Fergie 2021?

Yep no more banners they're embarrassing according to some.

 

[Eli Zee]

Came in steadied the ship, got rid of a load of deadwood, built a good squad, was good in the league but ultimately fell short in the latter stages of cup competitions.

For me he did a decent job before this season but after the start to this season had to go. Should really have been replaced a month before he was.

I hate when people use this as a good thing he did.. any manager worth his stuff would've gotten rid of the dead wood. It's always been clear as day who is good enough and who isn't, and just a matter of signing players (which the club gave him power to do) and selling/benching others.

he was never good enough in hind sight and we were silly to think he could continue that run he started with as caretaker.

 

[bonothom]

Failure.

 

[red4ever 79]

The worst manager, the worst man manager, the worst developer of youth. Expert in failure.

 

[Apokalips]

It's simple - if he hadn't played for us, he'd never even be in the running to manage Man Utd full time. He certainly wasn't qualified to!

He didn't get a job on the basis of his CV, or specific achievements in the game, he was appointed to fix the toxic mood because of some particular set of circumstances. Did alright in the interim period, his pals in the media bigged him up and applied pressure for him to get the job, Woodpecker relented and that was it.

Going forward, neither pundits nor fans used an objective lens in assessing his coaching/managing which was mediocre at best (with nonsense arguments like "away record" or "2nd in the league", conveniently ignoring the repeated failures to win a trophy, the record in Europe and the fact that Liverpool had no defence last year whereas Chelsea put all their eggs in winning the CL basket).

How do you view his legacy as Man Utd manager?

Fully agreed, additionally whenever I see any good records we had under him it just makes me wonder just how much more we could have achieved with a better coach.

 

[Rolaholic]

His legacy...

 

[bonothom]

10th place, 15 points off top after spending over £400 million. Its pretty plain to see that he's left United in a worse state than when he joined. But hey at least there's a lovely friendly atmosphere around the place and Ole's made some good friends. He's top.

 

[Ish]

Ultimately failed as a manager.

 

[AjaxCunian]

"Steadied the ship", give it a rest please. Goes along with Rooney's "Silent Domination" and Van Gaal's "Process".

 

[Foxbatt]

"Steadied the ship", give it a rest please. Goes along with Rooney's "Silent Domination" and Van Gaal's "Process".

Steadied the ship and then sank it.

 

[Greck]

I might be biased or misremembering but I really feel like before Ole the overwhelming opinion here was that "ultimately trophies are what matter". The mocking of Arsenal for "top-4 trophy" was constant. Yes, caf turned mostly against LvG and Jose in the end due to style of football and not good enough results, but the fact that even in post-Fergie slump we won trophies was the source of pride and the stick used to beat fans of other well performing but tropheyless clubs like Spurs. Then under Ole suddenly a large portion of fans started bigging up "consecutive top4 finishes" trophy

The damage he has done to our supporters' expectations and club standards make him probably our biggest mistake since Fergie left. The mentality that tolerates trophyless seasons like they're nothing started and were only possible under him, no thanks in part to his chronic excuse making and expectation dodging throughout his time here. I'll continue to respect Ole the player but Ole the manager is a walking hazard. Like a poison whose effects may take years to reverse. Some of these people don't even realize how ridiculous some of this is.

Even celebrating CL qualification after knowing very well how badly those CL campaigns went is something else. That's supposed to be a bigger feat than managers who won actual feckin silverware? I just can't.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

The damage he has done to our supporters' expectations and club standards make him probably our biggest mistake since Fergie left. The mentality that tolerates trophyless seasons like they're nothing started and were only possible under him, no thanks in part to his chronic excuse making and expectation dodging throughout his time here. I'll continue to respect Ole the player but Ole the manager is a walking hazard. Like a poison whose effects may take years to reverse. Some of these people don't even realize how ridiculous some of this is.

Even celebrating CL qualification after knowing very well how badly those CL campaigns went is something else. That's supposed to be a bigger feat than managers who won actual feckin silverware? I just can't.

Good post. The "he's our best manager since Fergie because mickey mouse trophies like the ones he couldn't win don't matter" posts are f*cking embarrassing.

And there's been a lot of them.

 

[Greck]

Good post. The "he's our best manager since Fergie because mickey mouse trophies like the ones he couldn't win don't matter" posts are f*cking embarrassing.

And there's been a lot of them.

That's just the worst. Freakin Pep goes after the league cup, Jose does as well, top managers fight for cups and these guys are here acting like it's beneath us. Managers and clubs who aren't on a trophyless spell, who win their domestic leagues every other season don't look down on it. Meanwhile we've won nothing in years. Arrogance and stupidity never fit a statement so perfectly

 

[VidaRed]

As a player he's a legend.
As a manager he's a failure.