Solskjaer's legacy and his future

[LazyGoal]

Maybe this belongs in another thread. But, I do think it is a big factor in how it went for Ole this fall.

In general, the players have to much power. They can down tools, do a bit of divide and concour in the dressing room and they can sit contracts out and still get fully paid — while they hold all the cards in the negotiations with the current and the suitor. In addition top clubs also needs to have very large squads, becouse there is nowhere to put them if they dont perform. And these big squads also locks down hugh funds.

All of these factors have negative implications on the club and the manager. It is also better to work with a fully fit squad of 20, than 40 — where the last half is either not performing or injured or are getting back from injury, or are moaning becouse they dont get play time.

I therefor think that the NHL modell with a farmer club is a much better structure for the PL.

In NHL they send players down to the farmer club where they only get 10% of their salary. This is the head coach decsision and it allows much better use of funds and it sets the «player power» in balance.

I’m not saying Ole would have sent Pogba or Lingaard or Andreas or Donny to the farmer club.

I’m just saying that he proably should have, and by just the fact that he could have — the squad would have been more in focus and professional. Hello Mcguire and Shaw.

Just a thought. When you are a «nice guy» like Ole you might need more tools than the bench to regulate the squad. Yes everybody is «happy», but how happy should things be? Would it not be better if all was responsibel (as an antidote to happy) for their own pay check, performance (other than starting XI) and status as a footballer?

 

[Bosnian_fan]

Maybe this belongs in another thread. But, I do think it is a big factor in how it went for Ole this fall.

In general, the players have to much power. They can down tools, do a bit of divide and concour in the dressing room and they can sit contracts out and still get fully paid — while they hold all the cards in the negotiations with the current and the suitor. In addition top clubs also needs to have very large squads, becouse there is nowhere to put them if they dont perform. And these big squads also locks down hugh funds.

All of these factors have negative implications on the club and the manager. It is also better to work with a fully fit squad of 20, than 40 — where the last half is either not performing or injured or are getting back from injury, or are moaning becouse they dont get play time.

I therefor think that the NHL modell with a farmer club is a much better structure for the PL.

In NHL they send players down to the farmer club where they only get 10% of their salary. This is the head coach decsision and it allows much better use of funds and it sets the «player power» in balance.

I’m not saying Ole would have sent Pogba or Lingaard or Andreas or Donny to the farmer club.

I’m just saying that he proably should have, and by just the fact that he could have — the squad would have been more in focus and professional. Hello Mcguire and Shaw.

Just a thought. When you are a «nice guy» like Ole you might need more tools than the bench to regulate the squad. Yes everybody is «happy», but how happy should things be? Would it not be better if all was responsibel (as an antidote to happy) for their own pay check, performance (other than starting XI) and status as a footballer?

Tools he needs are fundamentals. Understanding of modern football. He simply doesn't have it. You are limiting football to just questions of will and hard work, running etc. If it was that simple, you could pick 20 fans and they would 'die' for you on the pitch each game. But that's not football.

 

[LazyGoal]

Tools he needs are fundamentals. Understanding of modern football. He simply doesn't have it. You are limiting football to just questions of will and hard work, running etc. If it was that simple, you could pick 20 fans and they would 'die' for you on the pitch each game. But that's not football.

That was not my point at all. Please read again.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

What was your point then? That it's somehow on the players and not on Ole?

Because that's what you tried to explain in case you haven't noticed, also offering a solution of completely destroying football ecosystem by copying something from NFL which has only 32 franchises to football, which has thousands of teams, just so players couldn't do what you perceived as "downing tools on Ole".

 

[Foxbatt]

He left us in the same position as when Jose left us as per the footballing is concerned. He spent a lot of money and never won anything. Jose and LVG spent a lot of money too but won some trophies. If only there is a silver lining then it is the Board has accepted that they fecked up by appointing him and now got someone who can at least get the club back on track.
This whitewashing of his time is ridiculous. He was an incompetent manager who should never have been appointed in the first place.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

He hasn’t got a legacy..also absolutely not a legend either, just because he scored the winner in a final ? Lee Martin did too and it set us on the way to total dominance for nigh on 30 years so he’s more of a legend than Ole ever will be

 

[Winrar]

His legacy as a player is a baby faced assassin and a club legend who scored one of the most important goals for this club

His legacy as a manager is a clueless journemyan who got the job based on his connections to the club and ultimately guided us to a 0-5 home defeat vs Liverpool (amongst a sea of poor performances and results during this time period) after spending 100s of millions

It's best for all of us to move on and take lessons from this disaster and try our best to pretend that he was never our manager

 

[Cloud7]

That was not my point at all. Please read again.

Yup it was all the players fault. Ole did nothing wrong. The players should have had their contracts cancelled and tossed out onto the road while Ole given a 20 year contract.

 

[Greck]

Top 4 finishes are not what this club is supposed to be aiming for. Under Jose and Vangle we were spending more than anyone, just like under Ole. No one was claiming at the time that Jose and Vangle were doing a good job either, so saying Ole achieved marginally more than them while falling short of what we should actually be achieving is not any great accomplishment.

It has been so long since we had standards people forget top 4 is a financial goal not a footballing one. Especially because it wasn't based on ambitions to win the actual competition. It also isn't better than coming 5th and qualifying by winning the Europa league. The former does feck all more than the latter except adding the humiliation of having zero trophies to justify the season. Those back to back top 4 finishes aren't a feat greater than previous managers actually winning something.

 

[Regalia]

I still see a lot of the Ole-inners prefacing all their posts with "Ole has done a good job but...", "Ole set us on the right track but...". This is just utter bullshit. There is no disclaimer to his ineptitude. He did a horrendous job and set us on the road to irrelevance as we sat back against the mighty West Hams and Aston Villas of the league while totally getting dicked by our so-called rivals Pool and City (our rivals these days are more Everton and Wolves). You cannot even credit the alleviating of toxicity around the end of Mourinho's tenure to him as that basically left when Mou left. All he's done is saddle us with a bunch of overpriced, average footballers and created a club culture of trying to recreate the 90s while ridden with nepotism from top to bottom. Hiring Rangnick and the club looking to move in the complete OPPOSITE direction of whatever Ole has done is a damning indictment of his time here, but ironically also his greatest contribution; he was so shit we're actually forced to modernize the club.

 

[Kaos]

Honestly, I see his legacy as one of delusion, humiliation and failure. Unfortunately what springs to mind are the embarrassing defeats (6-1 Spurs, 5-0 Liverpool, 4-1 Watford), him being a universal figure of ridicule ("Ole at the wheel" sung ironically at almost every other PL ground), signing average overpriced players, and being very clearly tactically inept with no real idea as to what he wanted to do with the team. I've even come to retrospectively viewing that PSG game as a curse, duping the club into kickstarting a tenure that would essentially waste 3 years.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

There’s a lot to process here. . .

The cultural reboot was something that he drove. He got Murtough and Fletcher into their roles, he got the data analytics and analysis departments off the ground, he reinstated the use of tech such as GPS in the sports science department after Jose forced us to do away with them.

A ‘Cultural reboot’. Ok. Can you tell me what is the culture of the United side he left?

Neither Murtough nor Fletcher have proven successes as of yet & the less said about the acumen [or lack there of] in his coaching staff the better. Another example of the lengths people go to finding something to champion him for.

He left a team languishing in mid-table. . . you know, like Jose did but you’d rather focus on intangible phrases than actual successes because there were none.

The club was in a word, a basket case when he arrived with the brand being toxic both inside and outside the club. There was certainly no clamour for the manager's position when Jose left, like there seemingly is and was after Ole left. That Pochettino was apparently actively looking to leave PSG midseason and Rangnick has taken this interim job on when he absolutely didn't need to, should tell you of the quality foundations laid by Ole for the next man, as well as the fact that Rangnick isn't being brought in as someone to undo the work that Ole did, but to build on it.

‘Poch was apparently’ sums up this entire paragraph. We’ve just appointed another caretaker manager, the sudden influx of managers clamouring are where exactly? Oh yes, we’re clutching at more straws to find something to praise OgS for, we’re not actually talking about successes we’re manufacturing them.

He also was the only post-SAF manager who achieved two back to back top 4 finishes. Something that neither Jose or LvG could achieve despite spending more than Ole did at the same point in their tenures.

He finished higher in the league than Jose with less points on more than one occasion, considering how little we all think of Jose what’s the point of finishing 3rd then 2nd to then take a huge step backwards when the pressure is on?

It’s rather disingenuous to mention what he did up to ‘this point in their tenures’ then not go on to mention that having been given more time & a rather sizeable increase in budgets he regressed.

This is my issue with the OgS argument, we all widely accept that LvG & Jose we’re failures but people want to use those failure as barometers for why OgS was successful. All 3 failed, there’s an argument to be made to which degree but OgS didn’t even come near to Jose’s 2nd season which is damning in itself.

Yes, it ultimately went wrong at the end but he absolutely did a good job up to this point. Unfortunately it didn't work out and the blame is going to be laid squarely on him for that, but he wasn't exactly helped along the way either.

What more help did he need? The trouble with your discussion is that you act as if this has been done to him. He was given more than enough rope & he’d still be in a job had he not lost to Watford - this is after an already horrendous run. Could the situation at the club be better? yes but he had enough to do far more.

Not sure where we've been set back by years in either. We have a young team who are continuing to grow and develop with a ready supply line from the academy coming through as well. Literally the only areas which need investment in are found in deep midfield, everywhere else has quality and depth and for the first time since SAF, we actually have a coherently built squad. From GK, to CB, to the wings, to up front. We have legitimately top class players like Varane, Ronaldo, Sancho here. We certainly didn't have that in any of the other managers' time at the club. To hear you say we've been set back years you'd think Ole did what Jose did and proceeded to buy shit on top of the shit purchased by the previous manager and didn't bother to actually rebuild the squad. The fact we all went from looking to break top 4 to actively trying to challenge for the league is proof positive of the job he did. We certainly weren't thinking that in Jose's third season, or LvG's second, for example.

I could take issue with a multitude of things in this paragraph but when were we ‘actively trying to challenge for the league’? Was he not talking down our chances after beating burnley last season to go top?

You then go on again to berate Jose so you can say OgS was good, you keep using the lowest bar. We all agree Jose was horrendous, being shit is better than being absolute shit but you’re still shit.

And then I can talk about the improvement of the likes of McFred and Shaw who were seen as legitimate joke figures among the fanbase. Or the fact we were much more enterprising under Ole than we were with the other guys 5+ goals scored 10 times in c.160 games: the previous 3 managers? twice in 302 games.

The fact you think McFred are not seen as a ‘legitimate joke’, is a bit of a legitimate joke in itself.

 

[BluesJr]

Go and do your magic.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

A terrible legacy. One that I want to forget. Wasn't even manager on Sunday but sure felt like it. Had that been any other guy, he'd have been torn to shreds.

Ole turned us to shit and gets credit for it.

 

[Kopral Jono]

I've given my head a good wobble and I still think Ole is our worst manager post-Fergie all things considered. Moyes was bad, atrociously so, but with him it never descended into a farce like it did with Ole. He has zero legacy apart from signing Bruno and making Shaw a world-beater for a year, because I'd even argue that the great winning run we had after Jose's sacking was partly down to the sense of sheer relief the players felt.

A legend as a player, a great human being by all accounts but ultimately an incredibly shit manager who should have never managed us in the first place.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I've given my head a good wobble and I still think Ole is our worst manager post-Fergie all things considered. Moyes was bad, atrociously so, but with him it never descended into a farce like it did with Ole. He has zero legacy apart from signing Bruno and making Shaw a world-beater for a year, because I'd even argue that the great winning run we had after Jose's sacking was partly down to the sense of sheer relief the players felt.

A legend as a player, a great human being by all accounts but ultimately an incredibly shit manager who should have never managed us in the first place.

Pretty much.

It's hard to ignore just how woeful we were this season.

If Ole was allowed to stay, I think we would have finished with a negative GD.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

He did do few good things during his reign, we singed Bruno, Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo, and Cavani during his time, there is also Amad, who I have a lot of hopes for and think he could be an excellent player, Greenwood was promoted from academy and went on to become an important player in the 1st team during his time too.

however, he did sign players of questionable quality, like AWB, James, VdB, even Maguire is not that good for a 80M fee, and he did not address the midfield issues (for example, in the summer of 2020, we chased Sancho till end of the window, we could have signed at least one quality DM!!), so overall his transfer business was okay at best, or a disastrous one (all the players he signed so far are useful to the team now or can be useful in future, either by improving and getting better or being sold for a decent fee).

He also didn't coach the team to the required level to be a PL challenger, especially this season, he failed to rotate and use the squad when possible to rest the regular starters.

In hindsight, perhaps it was not the best decision to appoint Ole as Permanent Manager in 2019, but at least the club is in an acceptable state for the next permanent manager to start from, with also the chance of Rangnick preparing it for the next manager should be good decision by the club.

 

[matsdf]

I've given my head a good wobble and I still think Ole is our worst manager post-Fergie all things considered. Moyes was bad, atrociously so, but with him it never descended into a farce like it did with Ole. He has zero legacy apart from signing Bruno and making Shaw a world-beater for a year, because I'd even argue that the great winning run we had after Jose's sacking was partly down to the sense of sheer relief the players felt.

A legend as a player, a great human being by all accounts but ultimately an incredibly shit manager who should have never managed us in the first place.

I guess memory is short. A combined 0-6 at home to Pool and City in a matter of days feels pretty reminiscent to what happened this season. And that was with a more defensive approach.

 

[Andy_Cole]

I think ole will get a lot of credit if this side goes on to greatness. However if many of his signings don’t work from now on then that will further tarnish his legacy, like it did with LVG and Jose.

 

[Ixion]

I guess memory is short. A combined 0-6 at home to Pool and City in a matter of days feels pretty reminiscent to what happened this season. And that was with a more defensive approach.

Neither of those Moyes games were as bad as the Liverpool result this season. That is an all-timer how bad it was.

 

[Kopral Jono]

I guess memory is short. A combined 0-6 at home to Pool and City in a matter of days feels pretty reminiscent to what happened this season. And that was with a more defensive approach.

We were dire in those two games but we put up a fight. That City game, for instance, Dzeko scored a very early goal that killed any remnant of willpower we had left, but we still played with our heads up and their second was actually a fantastic side foot volley by the same player if I remember correctly. In the derby few weeks back City could have easily scored eight if they had wanted to.

 

[Max_United]

We have a young team who are continuing to grow and develop

That is a myth. We have a grand total of 2 players aged 23 or under (Greenwood and Sancho) who are in the first eleven or thereabouts. One of whom Ole did not know how to use and benched. Almost all of our first team squad is prime age or past it. We are around premier league average in squad age.

Our pipeline of youngsters has also been good on paper under Moyes/Jose/LvG. Under Ole all of them bar Greenwood were distant backups, behind the likes of Mata getting new contracts. Jose would have been (rightly) criticized here for the same youth record. Yes, Ole promoted Greenwood, but Moyes promoted Januzaj, LvG promoted Rashford, and Jose promoted McTominay.

I feel lots of people have constucted a dream World of "United DNA" manager Ole who promotes youth in their heads and cannot let it go even if facts of his reign contradict it.

 

[Tony247]

Ole conned everyone including supporters and the board in believing he is a football manager. It was THE biggest con ever orchestrated in football at such a high level, for 3 full years.

May be some 30 years down the line people might remember and laugh. Not now.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

How would Moyes have fared if he'd been given £500 million?

 

[Foxbatt]

Now fans are planning to have an Ole Tribute at the Arsenal game. They must be out of their minds?
Since when do we honour or celebrate failure? This is why I keep saying that there are a lot of Ole fans instead of real United fans.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Now fans are planning to have an Ole Tribute at the Arsenal game. They must be out of their minds?
Since when do we honour or celebrate failure? This is why I keep saying that there are a lot of Ole fans instead of real United fans.

Im convinced some of our fans have escaped from a mental asylum. Where was this energy for LVG who won a trophy and actually promoted the youth.

 

[MrMarcello]

Now fans are planning to have an Ole Tribute at the Arsenal game. They must be out of their minds?
Since when do we honour or celebrate failure? This is why I keep saying that there are a lot of Ole fans instead of real United fans.

This is the kind of top red fan decision we'd mocked Liverpool or Chelsea for doing for their failed managers but former player legends.

 

[Rolaholic]

Im convinced some of our fans have escaped from a mental asylum. Where was this energy for LVG who won a trophy and actually promoted the youth.

He had no United 'DNA' which apparently means no trophies nowadays...

 

[red4ever 79]

Now fans are planning to have an Ole Tribute at the Arsenal game. They must be out of their minds?
Since when do we honour or celebrate failure? This is why I keep saying that there are a lot of Ole fans instead of real United fans.

must have misheard it. It must be an 'ole' celebration for De Gea

 

[Red the Bear]

Give it a rest no need to take the piss he was a legend of the club tried his best and had the best intentions
Nothing wrong with the fans giving him a tribute don't be pathetic

 

[Polar]

Only to you I guess, I can't stand the way he treated the likes of Smalling Lukaku Bailey Lingard and Van de Beek, especially Van de Beek. He literally didn't give Smalling a single chance and later on lied to VdB in a disgusting manner

Yeh right Surprised if you receive much support for this comment (expect maybe VDB). Look forward to read your documentation - about Ole lying to VDB.

 

[Foxbatt]

Give it a rest no need to take the piss he was a legend of the club tried his best and had the best intentions
Nothing wrong with the fans giving him a tribute don't be pathetic

As a player we have already given him one when he retired. It's taking the piss by giving him one now after the disastrous performance as a manager.

 

[Red Star One]

Now fans are planning to have an Ole Tribute at the Arsenal game. They must be out of their minds?
Since when do we honour or celebrate failure? This is why I keep saying that there are a lot of Ole fans instead of real United fans.

Perhaps it’s to celebrate he’s still gone?

But yeah, it’s a very small-time mentality

 

[Red the Bear]

As a player we have already given him one when he retired. It's taking the piss by giving him one now after the disastrous performance as a manager.

So we should excommunicate any manger who fails to win a title with like some tyrannical oil regime

Yes we've become like Liverpool with their pathetic sentimentality but there's nothing wrong with fans appreciating a manger and player whom they love and tried his best

 

[MrBest]

Cant change the fact that he scored that goal in 99. He is a huge part of our history, mixed feelings on his management, id rather that now become history as we focus on the next chapter.

 

[Dunk the Lunk]

I honestly thought people knew but just chose to ignore it. There were stories about it on Twitter too.

I guarantee you every Norwegian on redcafe knows about it, they just chose to look the other way. It was big in sweden as a few of them are from here.

I really liked him before but this opened my eyes to what a rotten person he really is and it makes me sick in my stomach every time i read anyone saying what "wonderful person" he is. He isnt.

 

[The Hilton]

Now fans are planning to have an Ole Tribute at the Arsenal game. They must be out of their minds?
Since when do we honour or celebrate failure? This is why I keep saying that there are a lot of Ole fans instead of real United fans.

Just to clarify, the match going fans are the ones who aren't real United fans because they have an attachment to a club legend?

I assume you'll be at the match booing the Ole tribute, given that you're a real United fan and not an Ole fan?

 

[Foxbatt]

Just to clarify, the match going fans are the ones who aren't real United fans because they have an attachment to a club legend?

I assume you'll be at the match booing the Ole tribute, given that you're a real United fan and not an Ole fan?

I have been a match going fan. I don't boo ex managers or players either. But to give an ex manager a tribute for not winning anything and putting us in the current position we are is ridiculous. As a player he had his testimonial. If he had retired then it's great. He got sacked.

 

[Manny]

Now fans are planning to have an Ole Tribute at the Arsenal game. They must be out of their minds?
Since when do we honour or celebrate failure? This is why I keep saying that there are a lot of Ole fans instead of real United fans.

Its the Ole surfer banner. It won't kill you.

And "celebrate failure"?

Im convinced some of our fans have escaped from a mental asylum. Where was this energy for LVG who won a trophy and actually promoted the youth.

I'm convinced some of our fans have only been supporting the club for five minutes.

 

[AndyMUFC]

He's a club legend and we're showing him that he is still viewed as that. What's the problem?