It's literally impossible to tell how much force he's exerting with his thumbs on his throat... If any at all.
So... Was it a red? (Casemiro / Hughes Royal Rumble)
- Thread starter Vidyoyo
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It's literally impossible to tell how much force he's exerting with his thumbs on his throat... If any at all.
The more I watch it in regular time with other angles, I have to really question anyone saying it's a red, are those people just watching the slowed down one angled loop and freeze frame?
No I'm not, I'm looking at where his hands were based on the image to understand what's happening with his shirt.
You can see here, his thumbs are stacked in the center of Hughes neck, the rest of the hand on the side of his neck. You don't grab a shirt with your thumb and fingers either side of someone's neck, you're grabbing a shirt you need to grasp it between thumb and finger(s).
Casemiro has Hughes' neck and shirt between his thumb and fingers, that's why the shirt rides up.
Yeah I don't get it. When I watched it real time, it looked like Hughes was the aggressor, pushing towards Casemiro. Casemiro was trying to hold him, his hands were up near his neck for a second and he let go.
I guess the lesson here is that under no circumstances can you touch a player around the neck/face. I look forward to counting how many times it goes unpunished from now until the end of the season
I guess the lesson here is that under no circumstances can you touch a player around the neck/face. I look forward to counting how many times it goes unpunished from now until the end of the season
Anyone who actually thinks he gets choked here is not thinking logically.
If you grab someone by the throat violently and choke them you push forcefully against them. Essentially you’d move them backwards.
Its clear here has him by the collar and pulls him away. You can see by how Hughes is moved along and the direction of his collar.
It’s a pull not a push and is therefore most definitely not a choke.
If you grab someone by the throat violently and choke them you push forcefully against them. Essentially you’d move them backwards.
Its clear here has him by the collar and pulls him away. You can see by how Hughes is moved along and the direction of his collar.
It’s a pull not a push and is therefore most definitely not a choke.
I don't think referees care about force once you have your hands around someones neck, Hughes doesn't look at all distressed either, but you can't wrap your hands around someone's neck even if it's not forceful.
No I'm not, I'm looking at where his hands were based on the image to understand what's happening with his shirt.
You can see here, his thumbs are stacked in the center of Hughes neck, the rest of the hand on the side of his neck. You don't grab a shirt with your thumb and fingers either side of someone's neck, you're grabbing a shirt you need to grasp it between thumb and finger(s).
Casemiro has Hughes' neck and shirt between his thumb and fingers, that's why the shirt rides up.
You’re showing me a still image when I’ve shown you an actual video of what happened.
He pulls Hughes away and most definitely does not choke him (as that would mean he’d move him backwards and put pressure on his neck)
It was a poor match from Marriner, but it was the foul he gave for the clean Sabitzer tackle that really annoyed me, rather than the red card. You put your hands on another player in that context you’re always going to be walking a tightrope, especially with a ref like that.
I see why TalkShite would want the clicks and exposure but, as a human being, how little do you have to think of yourself that you'd subject yourself to looking this much of a braindead twonk? There is no way on earth he genuinely believes this shit he's been prodded to claim he does by his bosses.
They'd need to start laying off dozens of on air 'talent' to afford the fee it'd take for me to even consider having this permanently associated with me. He's probably doing it for a couple of hundred quid.
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I can understand if those pundits (try to make themselves relevant. They need to keep their job) and rival fans take a glee saying it a Red.
But surely neutrals and United fans could tell that at most, that was a Yellow?
But surely neutrals and United fans could tell that at most, that was a Yellow?
Then so be it, it needs to be appealed and we should also enquire about how VAR didn't look at Ayew incident which since it now falls into "referee and VAR didn't see it" it can be retroactively ruled on. So if they uphold Casemiro's red or even extend it and don't give Ayew a ban then the FA looks very biased
No I'm not, I'm looking at where his hands were based on the image to understand what's happening with his shirt.
You can see here, his thumbs are stacked in the center of Hughes neck, the rest of the hand on the side of his neck. You don't grab a shirt with your thumb and fingers either side of someone's neck, you're grabbing a shirt you need to grasp it between thumb and finger(s).
Casemiro has Hughes' neck and shirt between his thumb and fingers, that's why the shirt rides up.
Making an opinion on a dynamic interaction between two players is almost as misleading as the stupid one second loop the VAR cretin insisted on showing to the referee
Watch the whole interaction again. In normal time. From the best angle possible. You’ll see nothing even close to the level of violence that should see a player sent off.
Yup touching someones neck isn't violent conduct. Yeah it doesn't look good because of what it looks LIKE, but he was just holding/touching him. Looks at Hughes' (complete lack of) reaction to it as well, that's not someone who has just been choked.
I'm showing you the still image to show you where his hands are in the video (which you cannot see in said video, because it's from the wrong angle).
You can argue about force all you like, but that's not a factor for referees. As soon as you wrap your hands around a players neck you're getting sent off. You're not allowed to do it.
Red all day long unforunately. Can't put your hands on a player like that. Only saving grace is his ban will be served against Leeds x 2 and Leicester. We shouldn't be relying on him to help us beat either. Be fresh for the 1st leg against Barca too
When someone is getting choked they instinctively will try and get the hands from their neck by grabbing the other person forcefully (for obvious reasons).
Again he doesn’t do that at all.
I literally posted this image in response to a video of the exchange to show where the hands where in the video. Come on, if you're going to jump in at least read the full exchange.
You don't need to use force for it to be violent conduct, just like touching another players face deliberately. It's a red card as soon as the intentional contact happened because it's deemed violent in it's nature. There's no acceptable reason to intentionally touch someone else's face or wrap your hand around someone's neck.
So you think pulling someone by the shirt collar/neck area away from a fracas is violent conduct?
Because I’m sure you’ll agree he’s most definitely not choking him
Probably because he's like "LOOK WTF THIS GUY IS DOING SOMEBODY SEND HIM OFF"
Its a red card imo. I have no idea what is going through Casemiro's head when he's doing that. Like seriously what does he expect.
Not a red in real time and not an error that needed correcting.
I think the real story is Marriner was losing control of the game by this point and he wanted to make a statement. He had an awful game.
We really need ETH to start commenting on these either way decisions that keep going against us. It's every game now.
I think the real story is Marriner was losing control of the game by this point and he wanted to make a statement. He had an awful game.
We really need ETH to start commenting on these either way decisions that keep going against us. It's every game now.
That is exactly what it was. But he should have sent away a player from each side if he wanted to make a statement, not scapegoat Casemiro. It was a shameful decision
It is a very good angle. It was never a card and wouldn't have gotten anything if the idiot at VAR didn't make a fuss about it. Casemiro was holding Hughes at arm's length, Hughes was NEVER in any distress (he would have been if somebody touched his throat), and the ref ruined the game. In a situation like that if you are going to start zooming into it, you could find others "worth red card". That is absolutely ridiculous from VAR and having no backbone from the ref.
Our boys did the right thing standing up for Antony. That is what SAF's team would have done. Opposition needs to know that they can NOT harass our forwards. Absolutely and 100%. If VAR and ref decide to be idiots about it, it is on them.
Support the team, they did everything very well today and got a very important win. Upwards and onwards.
Probably because he's like "LOOK WTF THIS GUY IS DOING SOMEBODY SEND HIM OFF"
Its a red card imo. I have no idea what is going through Casemiro's head when he's doing that. Like seriously what does he expect.
Nah if you’re being choked your reaction is to try and relieve the pressure on your windpipe.
Feck that, it’s not worth the risk of Casemiro missing the final. It’s a shite decision for sure but at least it’s 3 favourable fixtures he’s missing, we should have enough to get through the two Leeds games and Leicester without him, Newcastle on the other hand is a completely different story.
You don't pull a shirt or a collar by wrapping your hands around their neck.
So you think he’s choking him?
Come on guys seriously it’s a red all day long
Has this ever happened before Casemiro's red? or are you just making things up?
This is not as severe, but not even a foul here:
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Fed up of the 'did he choke him/nah he grabbed his shirt' arguments.
The moment you put your hands there, regardless of what you do, you're getting a red. Even with VAR (or in spite of, due to the way it's used in this country). That's the way it is.
Therefore the arguments are completely null and void.
Stupid from a very experienced player and it'll cost us going forward.
The moment you put your hands there, regardless of what you do, you're getting a red. Even with VAR (or in spite of, due to the way it's used in this country). That's the way it is.
Therefore the arguments are completely null and void.
Stupid from a very experienced player and it'll cost us going forward.
I think it's worth
The rules on deliberate contact with the hands on the head/face are clear. They're violent conduct unless the force is negligible, Casemiro is literally doing it to prevent Hughes from moving somewhere so the force is automatically not negligible but it's purpose.
He's got his hands wrapped around his neck, that's a foul whether you think it's forceful enough to be a choke or not.
The rules on deliberate contact with the hands on the head/face are clear. They're violent conduct unless the force is negligible, Casemiro is literally doing it to prevent Hughes from moving somewhere so the force is automatically not negligible but it's purpose.
Bullshit. He is pushing him back pressing on the collarbones. Literally holding him at arm's length, never putting any pressure on the throat. Have you ever been choked? You would go in distress immediately. Hughes didn't experience anything like that and wasn't even asking for red card, turned around and jumped into the brawl a second later.No I'm not, I'm looking at where his hands were based on the image to understand what's happening with his shirt.
You can see here, his thumbs are stacked in the center of Hughes neck, the rest of the hand on the side of his neck. You don't grab a shirt with your thumb and fingers either side of someone's neck, you're grabbing a shirt you need to grasp it between thumb and finger(s).
Casemiro has Hughes' neck and shirt between his thumb and fingers, that's why the shirt rides up.
So you agree he’s not choking him then and he’s pulling him by the neck.
I feel it’s by the shirt but fair enough.
No you're not. Demonstrably so.
I think most people accept this, but he shouldn’t be missing 3 games for that. That’s not fair.
If VAR had just ignored it as no one was hurt or offended then no one would have blamed them, but they apparently couldn’t resist the chance to put themselves in the spotlight.
Respect to Hughes for not trying to act like he was actually being choked, which also suggests that he most likely wasn’t.
Respect to Hughes for not trying to act like he was actually being choked, which also suggests that he most likely wasn’t.
Of course anyone can clearly see there was no violent intent, or what the laws refer to as "excessive force or brutality" or, "in addition", deliberately striking an opponent on the head or face". However, you're just not allowed to put your hands around someone's neck, even if you're actually grabbing the collar around the neck.
VIOLENT CONDUCT
Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.
However, in light of what Casemiro was clearly doing, which was to defuse rather than inflame the situation, I can see the ban being limited to one match. We'll see.
VIOLENT CONDUCT
Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.
However, in light of what Casemiro was clearly doing, which was to defuse rather than inflame the situation, I can see the ban being limited to one match. We'll see.
Well it’s quite a big difference that’s why it’s being discussed?
Ones violent conduct and 3 games the other isn’t
Of course it was not a choke, but mere fact that Cas' hands were near Hughes' neck gave those VAR cnuts all the reasons they needed to alert that Mariner cnut to review it .
Ayew was also far more aggressive than anyone else bar Schlupp, at least Schlupp was involved and was confronted but Ayew pushed his way through and basically assaulted Fred and it was on the same tape but VAR cnuts ignored it.
It's a straight red regardless, therefore 3 games.