Good team. I think LvG must have seen enough of the 3-5-2 to know it just won't cut it in the Premier League.
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
- Start date
Good team. I think LvG must have seen enough of the 3-5-2 to know it just won't cut it in the Premier League.
I really hope so, if he just switched to 4-3-3, or even 4-4-2 then we'd be so much better, surely he sees it, and if he does then surely he isn't stubborn enough to stick at 3-5-2.
If you switch away from the 352 it would only be slightly better due to not having to use Valencia and Young. The team however would still not click as the defenders would still have a tough time passing from the back and players would still have trouble knowing the spaces they need to occupy. That will take time. Apart from this, in a 443 or 4231 one of Valencia or Young would have been a fb because Shaw, Rojo, and Rafael were all unavailable. We already know how bad they are at defending from that position so it's not like the defense would have suddenly been flawless.
Personally I'm of the opinion that 4 at the back would solve most of out issues, in future 99 out of 100 we would have no need for Young, or Valencia if we do this.
If we buy another midfielder in the next couple of days, I reckon we'll switch to 4-3-3 on a permanent basis. If not, we'll be stuck with 3-5-2 for the rest of the season.
4 at the back would still mean Evans, Jones, or Blackett would have to start the attacks from the back and they're not entirely comfortable playing in that manner yet. Today wouldn't have been solved with a formation change. I think a 433 would be best in the long term, but that too will take some time to work as well as we want it too.
Love it, though I would switch Di Maria and Adnan and go with a slightly different back four. But I just don't see van Gaal dropping Rooney after making him captain.
Why do I keep seeing Di Maria on the right and Januzaj on the left in peoples formations. Surely you would switch them?
DDG
Rafael Smalling Rojo Shaw
Herrera Di Maria
Mata
Rooney Welbeck
RVP
Take Mata out big games and Swap for Blind for a more secure midfield
Rafael Smalling Rojo Shaw
Herrera Di Maria
Mata
Rooney Welbeck
RVP
Take Mata out big games and Swap for Blind for a more secure midfield
Di Maria was on the left last season and had his best season. I believe Januzaj is best on the right as it makes better use of his left foot. A lot of left footers prefer the right side because they can cut inside and passing with the inside of their left foot occurs more often cutting from the right. For example, Ronaldo, Bale, Ribery, and Robben. All play on opposite flanks of their preferred foot.
This is what Ozil said, "It’s different playing on the left. When I was in Madrid, I often played on the right. I enjoyed that because I’m left-footed and I was able to cut inside to give assists and get shots on target. On the left, it’s more difficult. If I do get past someone I’m still away from the danger zone, still on the flank, and it’s harder for me to find the final ball with my right foot than with my left."
Di Maria is one of those players that can operate on both flanks.
I know, completely agree, that's why I said I'd switch them
Sorry I misread your comment.
Think we will see a switch now after the international break.
We have to dont we?
We have to dont we?
This is what I hope to see after the break.
Even if it is true it isn't very accurate. In a back 5, with 2 central midfielders there are only 2 bodies in the central midfield, one less option than in a 4-3-3 where you have a third option. The importance of that third option is incredible as well, considering the amounts of triangles you can create, how close you are to make an offensive pass etc.
When Di Maria receives the ball as a left central midfielder with a winger placed further up, there is instantly a chance to either make a run behind the defense, move centrally to link-up or stay out wide.
Currently when our central midfielders receives the balls, the only simple passes are backwards or side ways out wide. In both cases it leads to absolutely no penetration even in the best of situations. If Valencia/Young beats his man, the opponent winger - it still means the opponents has their full-back ready to cover the damage.
How difficult is it for our opponents to defend when they know their two wingers can cover Valencia/Young all game with a rare few exceptions. Which means that if our opponents lets our back five roll the ball around, they have 8 men defending against our front 5. Those are some good odds for the opponents defense, considering in a basic counter-attack they are quite likely to attack 2 vs 3 which is a better situation than what we have.
When we are counter-attacking the odds looks brilliant for us, but LVG has realized quickly that we won't be able to counter-attack our way to the league title or top 4. Moyes realized that as well, the difference being that Moyes never had the experience to play in a dominating style - LVG does so he can adapt.
Against QPR:
I don't see any lack option to play 4231 against QPR.
Rooney might need to play front if RVP if unfit.
At the most I think signing Blind will signal a move to a diamond formation, but I can't see van Gaal making a bigger step than that right now. If he can get either of the systems to work then a 3-5-2 or a diamond both suit the squad and in particular our best players better than a 4-2-3-1.
I can't see him even doing this right one though and for the time being I think he will persist with a 3-5-2. He's gone to a lot of trouble implementing this system so I would be shocked if he gave up on it before it's been tried with our first choice players - Shaw, Rafael, Rojo, Herrera, Carrick, Blind would all improve the 3-5-2.
I can't see him even doing this right one though and for the time being I think he will persist with a 3-5-2. He's gone to a lot of trouble implementing this system so I would be shocked if he gave up on it before it's been tried with our first choice players - Shaw, Rafael, Rojo, Herrera, Carrick, Blind would all improve the 3-5-2.
We are playing the 352 because it is the best way for the players to pick up LVG's footballing philosophy. The 352 is not the philosophy itself but just a formation used to teach the players the philosophy itself. Am I right or wrong?
Swansea/Sunderland/Burnley had 9 players behind the ball at all times - To me it looks like this formation doesn't work against teams who park the bus and we need a plan B for getting past teams who do park the bus.
Maybe against the likes of Everton/Liverpool/Spurs (or teams we faced in pre-season) - Teams who will attack and give us space, only then this formation may work then just as it did for Van Gaal at the World Cup, no team parked the bus vs Holland there nor did they against us pre-season, which is why it looked so good then.
Maybe against the likes of Everton/Liverpool/Spurs (or teams we faced in pre-season) - Teams who will attack and give us space, only then this formation may work then just as it did for Van Gaal at the World Cup, no team parked the bus vs Holland there nor did they against us pre-season, which is why it looked so good then.
I'd like to point out that every single 4-4-2/4-5-1 post on here is utilising currently unavailable players at full back.
We'd be wise to hold off on judgment of the 352 until our big name signings are on the pitch and give it a go.
ah okay thought it was done two days ago, great call on the di maria starting CM tho, only way it was ever going to happen
Are you being serious? He's still in Holland and the match kicks off in 2 hours. What's he going to do, fly straight onto the Turf Moor pitch? And he's not registered anyway and the deal isn't done yet. And other stuff I can't even be arsed explaining as to why he will not be playing today.
I don't understand how we played this formation so well in pre-season but now since the PL started the players look absolutely clueless as to what they're supposed to be doing. 
I know pre-season results mean nothing but the players looked like they knew the system, we were scoring plenty and creating a lot of chances as well as playing some really nice football at times. It's like last season is still haunting the players and there just like "holy shit we're back in the PL again" and the arses have dropped right out of them...bizarre, although injuries are playing a big part in this imo.
I still think this formation could work and once everyone is fit and available we will see a big improvement, but like LVG said it will take time. If we are going to continue with this formation then I think this will be the managers strongest first eleven...
I know pre-season results mean nothing but the players looked like they knew the system, we were scoring plenty and creating a lot of chances as well as playing some really nice football at times. It's like last season is still haunting the players and there just like "holy shit we're back in the PL again" and the arses have dropped right out of them...bizarre, although injuries are playing a big part in this imo. I still think this formation could work and once everyone is fit and available we will see a big improvement, but like LVG said it will take time. If we are going to continue with this formation then I think this will be the managers strongest first eleven...
DDG
Jones ------- Evans ------- Rojo
Rafael ------- Herrera ------- Blind -------- Shaw
------- Di Maria -------
v. Persie ------- Rooney
Jones ------- Evans ------- Rojo
Rafael ------- Herrera ------- Blind -------- Shaw
------- Di Maria -------
v. Persie ------- Rooney
It's pointless discussing the personnel to play in a three when it is clear that the system doesn't work for United. Instead of finding out the best pair for central defence, LvG decides that we should have THREE less-than-top-class defenders playing.
It was, frankly, embarrassing yesterday with the nervous defending and atrocious [long] ball distribution, notably from Blackett.
I doubt there will be much improvement even after three months because the system is flawed. United looked good on the US tour because friendly matches do not have competitive pressure seen in the Premier League.
However, I think playing a conventional four at the back will yield necessary improvement.
It was, frankly, embarrassing yesterday with the nervous defending and atrocious [long] ball distribution, notably from Blackett.
I doubt there will be much improvement even after three months because the system is flawed. United looked good on the US tour because friendly matches do not have competitive pressure seen in the Premier League.
However, I think playing a conventional four at the back will yield necessary improvement.
That is the exact formation I would play against QPR. Although we may be forced to play Smalling at CB, and play Rojo at left back until Shaw can come back from injury.
In my opinion, LVG should realize the 3-5-2 has been a failed expirement so far and move back towards a formation that's better suited to our players and specifically our center backs who are uncomfortable defending in wide areas and bringing the ball out of the back from wider positions as well. The instance yesterday where Jones played the ball out to Evans in the 2nd half, in what would be a traditional right back position, and Evans just had no composure as the winger pressed him.
3-5-2 as a system is fine, IMO. Its our crap wingbacks that ruin everything. Offer nothing in defense or attack. Its essentially carrying 2 passengers in the team.
Would really like to see Shaw and Rafa back soon and play in this system once or twice before ditching it.
Would really like to see Shaw and Rafa back soon and play in this system once or twice before ditching it.
A complete lack of pace in the front 3 doesn't help either. It basically allows RVP/Rooney to both lead the line but also exposes all the key weaknesses in the team.
Aye, no doubt about that.
We badly miss some ballplayers in deep positions as well - Herrera and Carrick coming back will be huge for us in that regard. The number of sloppy passes that the defenders were hitting caused or so many issues and Fletcher did not do enough as the deepest midfielder in offering himself for the pass.
Too often the defenders had to resort to smashing hopeful long balls down the pitch because they either had no options or else lacked the ball playing abilities to keep possession with short passes.
Van Gaal has spoken of his ability to change the system if he wants, but the 63-year-old, for the time being at least, remains convinced of its merits.
“The system is also dependent on the two strikers and the type of midfielders we have, “ said Van Gaal. “That is because they are playing midfielders, not fighting midfielders or hard-working midfielders.
“We have more technical and tactical midfielders in our midfield, so when you have that you also need support, and that you can give with three defenders.
“I think you can only can judge after one season, not in weeks or months or something like that.
“I think we have to rebuild a new team and I have already said that this needs time. When I have to repeat myself every week when we are losing points, you are tired of my answer but also the fans shall be tired.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/man-united-players-still-havent-4139515#ixzz3C0cfT4KX
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook
“The system is also dependent on the two strikers and the type of midfielders we have, “ said Van Gaal. “That is because they are playing midfielders, not fighting midfielders or hard-working midfielders.
“We have more technical and tactical midfielders in our midfield, so when you have that you also need support, and that you can give with three defenders.
“I think you can only can judge after one season, not in weeks or months or something like that.
“I think we have to rebuild a new team and I have already said that this needs time. When I have to repeat myself every week when we are losing points, you are tired of my answer but also the fans shall be tired.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/man-united-players-still-havent-4139515#ixzz3C0cfT4KX
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook
Safe to say that now we've basically signed Falcao we are not moving away from 352 anytime soon.
feck the 352. This is where it's at.
feck the 352. This is where it's at.
Our right side looks empty.
De Gea; Jones, Evans, Rojo; Rafael, Herrera, Blind, Di Maria, Shaw; Rooney; Falcao.
ITS ON.
ITS ON.
- - - - - - - - - - - -De Ge - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - Jones - - - Smalling - - - Rojo - - - -
Rafael - - - - - Carrick / Blind - - - - - - Shaw
- - - - - - Herrea - - - - - - di Maria - - - -
- - - - - Rooney - - - - - Falcao - - - - - - -
So the 3 in the middle is with the point backwards, Carrick or Blind will hold, di Maria will be the most offensive central midfielder as he was for Real Madrid and Herrera will support both defence and attack like Modric did.
For Juan Mata, either he proves himself to be a strong second striker but he has to overcome Rooney, Falcao and RVP but otherwise he must compete with Herrera or Angel di Maria by adapting his game to central midfield.
Or Louis van Gaal will stick with 3-4-1-2 and play both Herrera and Angel di Maria as our only central midfielders but this just seems a little unbalanced to me.
- - - - Jones - - - Smalling - - - Rojo - - - -
Rafael - - - - - Carrick / Blind - - - - - - Shaw
- - - - - - Herrea - - - - - - di Maria - - - -
- - - - - Rooney - - - - - Falcao - - - - - - -
So the 3 in the middle is with the point backwards, Carrick or Blind will hold, di Maria will be the most offensive central midfielder as he was for Real Madrid and Herrera will support both defence and attack like Modric did.
For Juan Mata, either he proves himself to be a strong second striker but he has to overcome Rooney, Falcao and RVP but otherwise he must compete with Herrera or Angel di Maria by adapting his game to central midfield.
Or Louis van Gaal will stick with 3-4-1-2 and play both Herrera and Angel di Maria as our only central midfielders but this just seems a little unbalanced to me.
Time to move to 4-2-3-1 to get the best of our squad.
If we actually sell Keane, the 3-5-2 project is probably over since we already lacked CB's options.
DeGea
Smalling Jones Rojo
Rafael Herrera diMaria Shaw
Mata
Falcao Rooney
Backups
Johnstone
Thorpe Evans Blackett
Valencia Blind Carrick Young
Lingard
Wilson vanPersie
Smalling Jones Rojo
Rafael Herrera diMaria Shaw
Mata
Falcao Rooney
Backups
Johnstone
Thorpe Evans Blackett
Valencia Blind Carrick Young
Lingard
Wilson vanPersie
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Now that we've signed Blind to provide the extra protection in midfield, we can hopefully drop 3-5-2. It's really not working out at all.
The game against Burnley could have gone for another 45mins and we would not have scored.
The game against Burnley could have gone for another 45mins and we would not have scored.
I think with the signings he's made, LVG isn't ready by any stretch to drop the 3-5-2.