Yep. Their not as attack minded as people are hoping they'll be. Shaws old Saints coach was on the radio the other day and he said he hasn't seen him run at people the way he knows he can yet in the Prem. Rafael attacks far more with overlapping runs than taking people on.
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
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Yep. Their not as attack minded as people are hoping they'll be. Shaws old Saints coach was on the radio the other day and he said he hasn't seen him run at people the way he knows he can yet in the Prem. Rafael attacks far more with overlapping runs than taking people on.
Too early to judge this system if you ask me, for starters we just havn't clicked as a team and I don't think thats just down to the formation.
IMO would probably look a lot better with Rafael and Shaw in the team. Valencia and Young don't work for me at all lately
IMO would probably look a lot better with Rafael and Shaw in the team. Valencia and Young don't work for me at all lately
If we want to become a possession based team we have to adapt to at least playing some variant of 3 at the back.
Valencia and Young are struggling even more because of he lack of overlap IMO.
As I said in another thread, you couldn't dream up a better formation to exaggerate the flaws in our squad.
Wingers struggling to create?
Isolate them.
Inexperienced central defenders?
Confuse the shit out of them.
Front two not linking up well?
Make them operate in an even smaller space.
Lack of goals throughout the team?
Play with one less attacking player.
I mean, seriously. What the feck?
Wingers struggling to create?
Isolate them.
Inexperienced central defenders?
Confuse the shit out of them.
Front two not linking up well?
Make them operate in an even smaller space.
Lack of goals throughout the team?
Play with one less attacking player.
I mean, seriously. What the feck?
This will be our best team when everyone is fit, we kind of need that width to open up spaces and the full backs overlapping to add quality to the attack.
DeGea
Rafael Jones Rojo Shaw
Carrick Blind
Adnan Herrera DiMaria
RvP
Rafael Jones Rojo Shaw
Carrick Blind
Adnan Herrera DiMaria
RvP
I think it would have helped. Maybe not with Young but Welbeck instead of him. One of the main problems we are having is that we have no width. With wide players, we not only get width but we add more pace to the game. We play with a quicker tempo. The last 15 minutes of the Burnley game was an example. Yes the crossing was terrible but there was a bit more urgency to the game. We pushed up Young and Valencia and we were attacking more. We were at least getting the balls into the box. The problems if without those wing backs/wingers giving you width, the strikers have to move out to create width and therefore there is no one in the box to head home the cross (if we actually get one on target).
Shaw and Rafael are injurred, chaning to back 4 wouldn't solve that...
The problem is not the system it is the personell, wheter we play 3 at the back or 4 at the back, when you don't have Shaw, rafael, carrick, Herrera, Rojo etc and you have to play Young and Valencia and you have to play Fletcher and can't bring anything else from the bench except Anderson, you are going to struggle, regardless of the formation.
It is way to soon to really evaluate the 3-5-2 formation, it worked very well for us in the USA, were players like Shaw, Herrera and also Lingard were involved, while it has been poor since we started the competition, notably the time those 3 all got injurred.
Look we have to much shit players and they will remain shit regardless of the formation.
The system sucks. Defensively, the CBs aren't comfortable with it and no-one really takes charge like in a central defensive pairing. It also encourages us to dick about spreading the ball amongst the centre halves which invites pressure and leads to us hoofing it forward.
Going forward, yeah we can fit Rooney, Mata and RVP into the team but it's not really hard to defend against them if you pile bodies in their way. Teams can do that because we don't have enough movement and options to stretch them. There's no overlapping or 2 vs 1 situations and our outlet balls are to Young and Valencia...
Going forward, yeah we can fit Rooney, Mata and RVP into the team but it's not really hard to defend against them if you pile bodies in their way. Teams can do that because we don't have enough movement and options to stretch them. There's no overlapping or 2 vs 1 situations and our outlet balls are to Young and Valencia...
Wow... That is absolutely spot on. Excellently put.
Theres no one overlapping our wingbacks, either play Di Maria in free role where he could help out or switch to 4 at the back.
At the moment we are relying on Valencia beating a man to get his cross in, which never happens. Young is capable but for some reason we keep on playing down the right.
At the moment we are relying on Valencia beating a man to get his cross in, which never happens. Young is capable but for some reason we keep on playing down the right.
They are the ones who are responsible for supplying the width. There isn't anyone who is going to be overlapping them. They have to stop being pussies from time to time and makes forward runs. We have to take risks and try something different if we want this system to work. Isn't if pathetic that we have hoping for our two full backs to come back because they provide more width than our wingers?
I would not mind to see us switch to a 3-4-3 and see if it changes anything. But I don't think the 3 at the back is our problem, people crying out for 4 at the back are barking up the wrong tree imo.
It is. And the reason the players look lost and not confident with it is because it's still very new to them. And it will certainly be improved when Rafa comes back. He is perfect for it.
A winger going 2 vs 1 against the opposition winger and fullback is going to struggle.
This won't work with this front 3 up top as things stand.
I think LVG will persist till November, at which point he may give up and try something else. Question though would be, would it be too late for him, and us, to salvage anything by that time.
That pretty much nails it. Add in the fact that our biggest weakness is in central areas and this system requires you to be skilled at playing through the middle and it's a complete mismatch.
This is what we did for years in the England side. It didn't work.
You need a team that plays together and compliments others, not a bunch of good players together.
I hate 3 at the back
Mata is doing very little as the play maker in chief. I hope this will change.
The problem is that we are playing this to fit out best players in but the same players aren't justifying their billing. What is clear is that we don't create enough because we are relying on shit wingbacks who are always going to be outnumbered. I think we should bin it and switch to four at the back, drop Van Persie and Mata and bring in Welbeck and Januzaj.
I think the inclusion of Herrera, Rafael,Rojo,Shaw and Blind will see an improvement even when using this formation but against three quarters of the league we are always going to encounter parked buses. Sadly I don't believe this is the right formation to break down packed defences.
I think the inclusion of Herrera, Rafael,Rojo,Shaw and Blind will see an improvement even when using this formation but against three quarters of the league we are always going to encounter parked buses. Sadly I don't believe this is the right formation to break down packed defences.
Great post. I'd even take back our zombie 4-4-2 than this 3-5-2, it was horrible then but at least we were used to it
We could have played 4 at the back today with only one player out of position, being Valencia.
Blackett--Jones--Evans--Valencia
Blackett--Jones--Evans--Valencia
Our wing backs are just too crap. They supposed to deliver a great ball and run forward, but our wing back (Valencia and Young) are doing the opposite. If the wing backs are crap then 352 won't work. The 3 centre backs also need to get used with this formation. This will take time but we can't afford it since we just keep losing points. What's the point for this formation if in the end we will use 433 or 4231 (his favour formation in Barca, Ajax and Bayern). 352 with our current wing backs is like asking a baby who just born to walk with his feet.
We have pace from Di Maria, but still not enough. Mata-RVP-Rooney are too slow. Drop one or two of them for Welbeck and Januzaj and see if it will make the difference. It's about time we drop some players to give Welbz and Adnan chances.
We have pace from Di Maria, but still not enough. Mata-RVP-Rooney are too slow. Drop one or two of them for Welbeck and Januzaj and see if it will make the difference. It's about time we drop some players to give Welbz and Adnan chances.
Losing faith in it very quick. We seriously lack confidence at the back and our players are making stupid mistakes which is leaving us exposed. Also the Rooney - RVP conundrum has reared it's ugly head again. I wouldn't be against LVG reverting to 4-3-3 for the time being until we get our confidence back.
Great post. I'd even take back our zombie 4-4-2 than this 3-5-2, it was horrible then but at least we were used to it
I wouldn't, even though our players would be more comfortable with it...
What LvG is effectively revealing to himself (and us) with the 352 is just how bad our players are on the ball now - how static they've become, how cowardly their passing has become, how cheaply they give away possession.
He wants to play possession football because he wants us to compete at the top, most likely in a 433, but in order to work out quickly who can and can't play this way the 352 is like a litmus test - I guarantee that as soon as the transfer window closes we start playing 433 and 4231.
The thing that I think has shocked him slightly is just how bad our entire team has become in possession. This is something that we've all noticed happening during Fergie's last years, particularly after the 2nd CL Final mauling by Barca.
In all honesty, I don't think the squad has been trained or maintained particularly well for about 4 years, and the Moyes season just saw them completely fall apart.
We need to learn how to keep the ball again, from scratch. We need to learn how to build up from the back, from scratch. We need to allow this NEW SQUAD (that's what it is now/will soon be) time to gel together and learn how to press as a unit.
The formation is almost irrelevant at this point.
What does concern me, personally, is the seemingly 'must play' trio of Mata, RvP and Rooney - something seems slightly off to me that LvG, with all his footballing intelligence, plays all three of them when they are utterly ineffectual together and everyone can see it.
Also, Rooney being captain and Fletcher Vice Captain has begun concerning me a little. While at first I thought this was a great decision, I'm starting to think that both were a mistake...
I'm not ready to completely write it off as we've not come close to seeing it with the proper personnel yet, but I'd rather we were just playing bloody 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 whatever you want to call it. At least then we wouldn't have questions being asked about the system as well as our players. At a time like this we need something we can rely on, something we know will work when the players get their act together. That's why 4-3-3 is the most popular formation in the world, because it is balanced, tried and tested.
Please can we switch to a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3? Pretty please.
If you play a back 4, you've got 8 players ahead of you (including fullbacks).
If you play a back 3, it's only 7 and most of those are in the same congested area of the pitch.
The centrebacks need to start running into midfield themselves and beginning attacks. They'll still have the protection of two more defenders behind them. Having 3 at the back at all times is just overkill.
If you play a back 3, it's only 7 and most of those are in the same congested area of the pitch.
The centrebacks need to start running into midfield themselves and beginning attacks. They'll still have the protection of two more defenders behind them. Having 3 at the back at all times is just overkill.
-----------------------------DDG-----------------------
Rafael ---- Jones/Smalling/Evans -------- Rojo ------ Shaw
----------------Herrera--------------Blind/Carrick-------------
Di Maria -------------------Mata--------------------Januzaj----
----------------------Rooney/RVP/Welbeck-------------------
I'd much rather see something like that (or some sort of varient) after the international break, then persisting with the 3-5-2.
Rafael ---- Jones/Smalling/Evans -------- Rojo ------ Shaw
----------------Herrera--------------Blind/Carrick-------------
Di Maria -------------------Mata--------------------Januzaj----
----------------------Rooney/RVP/Welbeck-------------------
I'd much rather see something like that (or some sort of varient) after the international break, then persisting with the 3-5-2.
I think I can understand what he's trying to do with this system. Well, I hope I'm thinking what he is anyway. If his idea is what the players are currently doing, then no, this won't work. But I doubt it is. I think he's trying to build a team in this system that is flexible and can bring together some of the aspects of other formations depending what is required on a game by game basis. However...
The main concerns I have at the moment is our build up play. If the players are doing as they're told, then it appears that Van Gaal is encouraging the long ball. Whenever our defenders have the ball our midfielders actually run away now and swarm around the strikers, as if they are playing for the second ball off the knock downs. I don't think Van Gaal is daft enough to think this is a viable tactic at this level, though. But that is what happened a lot today and needs to be rectified.
Our passing is also too slow and our defenders have most of the ball now. We need to find a way of linking it all together so that the defenders can initiate attacks quicker. We're fecking easy to play against right now. We're a more boring version of last years team.
The main concerns I have at the moment is our build up play. If the players are doing as they're told, then it appears that Van Gaal is encouraging the long ball. Whenever our defenders have the ball our midfielders actually run away now and swarm around the strikers, as if they are playing for the second ball off the knock downs. I don't think Van Gaal is daft enough to think this is a viable tactic at this level, though. But that is what happened a lot today and needs to be rectified.
Our passing is also too slow and our defenders have most of the ball now. We need to find a way of linking it all together so that the defenders can initiate attacks quicker. We're fecking easy to play against right now. We're a more boring version of last years team.
3-5-2
--------------De Gea--------------
----Jones---Smalling---Rojo---
Valencia----------------------Blind
--------Carrick-----Herrera--------
--------------Di Maria--------------
----------RVP------Rooney----------
4-4-2
--------------De Gea--------------
Rafael---Jones---Smalling---Shaw
Januzaj--Carrick--Herrera--Di Maria
--------------Rooney--------------
----------------RVP----------------
4-4-2
--------------De Gea--------------
Rafael---Jones---Smalling---Shaw
--------------Carrick--------------
------Herrera-------Di Maria------
---------------Mata---------------
-----------RVP-----Rooney-----------
4-3-3
--------------De Gea--------------
Rafael---Jones---Smalling---Shaw
--------------Carrick--------------
------Herrera-------Mata------
Januzaj-------RVP-------Di Maria
Plenty of options with the personnel we have now but for me I still like the diamond more than any of the others
--------------De Gea--------------
----Jones---Smalling---Rojo---
Valencia----------------------Blind
--------Carrick-----Herrera--------
--------------Di Maria--------------
----------RVP------Rooney----------
4-4-2
--------------De Gea--------------
Rafael---Jones---Smalling---Shaw
Januzaj--Carrick--Herrera--Di Maria
--------------Rooney--------------
----------------RVP----------------
4-4-2
--------------De Gea--------------
Rafael---Jones---Smalling---Shaw
--------------Carrick--------------
------Herrera-------Di Maria------
---------------Mata---------------
-----------RVP-----Rooney-----------
4-3-3
--------------De Gea--------------
Rafael---Jones---Smalling---Shaw
--------------Carrick--------------
------Herrera-------Mata------
Januzaj-------RVP-------Di Maria
Plenty of options with the personnel we have now but for me I still like the diamond more than any of the others
Some youse might want to have a look at the Bayern team tonight, we don't have anywhere near the same quality but it's food for thought.
That is just shocking. We have three players in Rooney, RVP and Mata who are playing higher than Di Maria but are no where on screen. Well Rooney sort of is. This is why we are so suggested and so narrow up top. #10 would be dropping deeper to receive the ball which will drag a defender with him and that creates more space for Di maria to run into or the strikers to exploit.
And Valencia there with space in front of him should be exploiting it. It doesn't matter if he gets the pass or not but just making that run will drag a defender with him as well for a split second and that means more space in the midfield. Its like the fullbacks overlapping wingers - they don't necessarily expect the ball but for a split second the winger gets a bit of open space to put in a cross.
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That's why we should have never loaned Varela and sold Buttner. This team is used to a 4 men defense. You cant expect wingers to defend.
To be honest playing Rojo and Jones if need be as fullbacks is better than playing Buttner and to a certain extent (since he is inexperienced) Varela.
Both are needed as CBs especially if VG is still toying with this 3 CB defense madness. We simply lack both quality and quantity at the back. If I had to choose I'd rather go for Buttner, Janko and Varela then Valencia and Young as FBs.
But we weren't talking about using Jones and Rojo as wing backs in a defensive 5. We were talking if we were to play 4 at the back, it wouldnt be the worse decision in the world to use them there or even Blind at left back with Rojo moving centrally.
That is just shocking. We have three players in Rooney, RVP and Mata who are playing higher than Di Maria but are no where on screen. Well Rooney sort of is. This is why we are so suggested and so narrow up top. #10 would be dropping deeper to receive the ball which will drag a defender with him and that creates more space for Di maria to run into or the strikers to exploit.
And Valencia there with space in front of him should be exploiting it. It doesn't matter if he gets the pass or not but just making that run will drag a defender with him as well for a split second and that means more space in the midfield. Its like the fullbacks overlapping wingers - they don't necessarily expect the ball but for a split second the winger gets a bit of open space to put in a cross.
This to me was huge. Rooney and RVP were basically trying to both occupy the same space. And with them so far up it mystified me that we could not have a wingback or Mata open. maybe they still need to learn, but I was shocked with the amount of attacking talent that we have that we did not generate more good chances
.I am praying we get to something like this...
--------------DeGea----------------
Rafael-----Jones------Rojo-----Shaw
------------Carrick/Blind-------------
----Herrera---------------DiMaria----
--------------Mata------------------
-----RvP----------------Rooney-----