Yep, wether we like it or not we're stuck with it now (or at least some variation of it). Don't think that we have a strong enough midfield to be truly successful with that system atm but hopefully i'm proven wrong.
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
- Start date
Yep, wether we like it or not we're stuck with it now (or at least some variation of it). Don't think that we have a strong enough midfield to be truly successful with that system atm but hopefully i'm proven wrong.
He sticks with this formation he is gone by January, I guarantee you that. We have spent too much on our attack to scraping draws at QPR and Burnley.
We'll probably keep it and bench Mata.
You are both sexy geniuses and if I could sleep with you both, I would.
On this one, however, I can't see which transfer window you have been watching.
The signings and sales, for me, show a signal of intent to play a 4-3-3 variation. Blind has IMO been signed to play DM. Di Maria will play in central midfield but in a 3. Injuries dictated he played in a 2 at Burnley but that wasn't ideal. Falcao is obviously a starting striker. Soo...
You have the same 3 point attack. Mata dropped, Rooney in the no10, Falcao and v.Persie up front. Di Maria the attacking CM, Blind as the DM and Herrera as the link. A 3 point CM similar to Barcelona's back in the Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta era. 4 at the back. I don't think M.Keane would have been sold if we still wanted 3. Not to mention CB's would have been signed, even if only as cover. With 4 at the back, you have Rojo and Jones as the starting CB pair, Smalling provides cover at both RB and CB, Evans is good cover, Blind and Rojo can both step in at left back.
Januzaj and Mata are dropped here. Mata, according to Andy Mitten, Ogden etc has a touch-and-go future here. Januzaj can step in to about 5 different positions in this formation and should get plenty of game time.
The signings indicate that he's going to stick with two players up top and one in the hole - which basically leaves only two realistic options in either a 3-5-2 or a 4-3-1-2 diamond. With the signing of Falcao I can't see him playing anything else right now.
Thanks for the compliment
He's gonna keep trying 3-5-2 because all the players he's bough can still work with that system, he has Falcao and Rooney (who he'll never drop any time soon) up front. Di Maria as a CM even if he brings quality variety. We will eventually go to a 4-3-3 but not after he's tried and tried the 3-5-2 with all the new signings.
It's more like 532 the way Young and Valencia play it, it's too defensive bearing in mind that most of our opponents are inferior (on paper), and the back 3 don't seem to be able to deal with the pressing game of opposition forwards. And it's even affecting De Gea's kicking. So far not so good.
I pray that is what he is thinking. I cannot stomach any more displays like the last 4 games. Heck, we were creating more chances for the strikers when Moyes was in charge. Hope he can get over his ego and realize this is 5 at the back is not going to work.
I'm pretty confident. The 4-3-3 i'm thinking about is the one he played at AZ, and played for one game in the WC. I cannot remember who against, but I remember he won the match.
If we were serious about sticking with the 3 at the back, defenders would surely have been urgently targeted. As it was we tried to get a couple of CM's in which to me shows it will be 2 in defense, 3 in midfield.
The signings of Blind, di Maria and Falcao. Along with our injuries returning. (Rafael and Shaw are key to a potential 4-3-3 and not been available yet.) I'm very sure will change it to a 4-3-3.
The 3-5-2 absolutely has to go, just because of the players we have available.
We're down to two proper wingers who are absolute shit. We've played them at wing-back for the last few matches, and have probbaly all seen quite enough of that to last a lifetime. So there's no question that the full-backs / wing-backs should be Rafael and Shaw. If we play 3-5-2, that's 5 defenders, and so only 5 places for all of out attacking talent (by which I'm including midfielders such as Herrera and... well, Herrera actually). At least if we move to 4 at the back, that's an extra space to fit in our best players.
We're down to two proper wingers who are absolute shit. We've played them at wing-back for the last few matches, and have probbaly all seen quite enough of that to last a lifetime. So there's no question that the full-backs / wing-backs should be Rafael and Shaw. If we play 3-5-2, that's 5 defenders, and so only 5 places for all of out attacking talent (by which I'm including midfielders such as Herrera and... well, Herrera actually). At least if we move to 4 at the back, that's an extra space to fit in our best players.
This formation really needs to feck off now. We can play 4-3-3/4-1-2-1-2/4-5-1 with ease now. It'll be pure boneheaded stubbornness to do otherwise.
I don't see it that way at all.
Like many I think that we'll be playing a diamond midfield with 4 at the back.
We'll find out soon enough anyway, I think he doesn't rate Januzay as well as some fans do (I don't rate him that highly either at the moment even if he's a promising) so maybe in his eyes, we still have one quality winger in Di Maria.
It's just a theory anyway and I hope I'm wrong, I fecking loathe the 3-5-2, such an unnatural formation. It's the 3 CBs that irks me the most tbh, I hate that shit.
I expect us to move to two centre backs now, on paper. Daley Blind / Michael Carrikc will be anchoring the midfield, shielding the defence and even dropping into the defense to push the other two centre backs out wide, which will launch our full backs. This is similar to how City does it, with Fernando having that midfield role, frequently launching both full backs at the same time.
On paper it will look like we've made a major switch, but in reality we'll be where LvG always wanted to be with our three centre backs. We've just been missing the right players to do it, on account of injuries.
As far as I can see, the only really big change would be if we switch to more traditional wingers, but with the signing of Falcao I don't see that happening at all. We will retain the shape we've been working on from ahead of the third centre back / midfield anchor, with Di Maria and Herrera most likely first choices in the "normal" midfield roles, and Mata / Rooney playing ahead of them, depending on whoever is fit to play up front.
What we've been doing up until now has mostly been down to lack of proper midfield and / or centre back options, depending on how you look at it.
So we'll be going from:
-----Evans - Jones - Blackett
Valencia - Fletcher - Di Maria - Young
-------------Mata
---------Rooney RvP
To something more like this:
----Evans - Jones
Rafael - Blind - Shaw
---Herrera - Di Maria
--------Mata
---Falcao - Rooney
The only actual change is that we're sacrificing one deep laying midfielder for a two way midfielder, and I would assume that this has been LvG's plan all the way, we've just been lacking a Carrick or Blind, and proper midfielders for the strategy.
Of course we're very short on players who can have that two way role in midfield, with only Herrera and Di Maria doing it properly, so if any one of them are out I think we'll revert back to what we've seen so far, pushing Blind or Carrick into that spot, and adding another proper centre back in their stead. This could also be an option against top sides, where we might want to go with a more defensive minded approach.
As for width, it doesn't have to be a problem. Just look at Liverpool who actually played with a quite similar shape to what I've outlined above against Spurs, and City did the same against Liverpool. You just need proper movement, and that's what we've been lacking so far. Di Maria and Falcao will both help tremendously with that.
On paper it will look like we've made a major switch, but in reality we'll be where LvG always wanted to be with our three centre backs. We've just been missing the right players to do it, on account of injuries.
As far as I can see, the only really big change would be if we switch to more traditional wingers, but with the signing of Falcao I don't see that happening at all. We will retain the shape we've been working on from ahead of the third centre back / midfield anchor, with Di Maria and Herrera most likely first choices in the "normal" midfield roles, and Mata / Rooney playing ahead of them, depending on whoever is fit to play up front.
What we've been doing up until now has mostly been down to lack of proper midfield and / or centre back options, depending on how you look at it.
So we'll be going from:
-----Evans - Jones - Blackett
Valencia - Fletcher - Di Maria - Young
-------------Mata
---------Rooney RvP
To something more like this:
----Evans - Jones
Rafael - Blind - Shaw
---Herrera - Di Maria
--------Mata
---Falcao - Rooney
The only actual change is that we're sacrificing one deep laying midfielder for a two way midfielder, and I would assume that this has been LvG's plan all the way, we've just been lacking a Carrick or Blind, and proper midfielders for the strategy.
Of course we're very short on players who can have that two way role in midfield, with only Herrera and Di Maria doing it properly, so if any one of them are out I think we'll revert back to what we've seen so far, pushing Blind or Carrick into that spot, and adding another proper centre back in their stead. This could also be an option against top sides, where we might want to go with a more defensive minded approach.
As for width, it doesn't have to be a problem. Just look at Liverpool who actually played with a quite similar shape to what I've outlined above against Spurs, and City did the same against Liverpool. You just need proper movement, and that's what we've been lacking so far. Di Maria and Falcao will both help tremendously with that.
Agree with all this. I think of Herrera or Di Maria are out then Blind might be able to do the more advanced midfield role, with Fletcher or ideally Carrick taking the DM spot. Alternatively Fellaini could come in, or even Januzaj if we want an attacking alternative.
I think we have just about enough options for now - presumably we'll strengthen further with Strootman in January.
Firstly, I don't know what I've done to deserve such high praise but it sure lightened an otherwise gloomy tuesday.
If I understand you correctly it would be more of a 4-4-2 diamond than a 4-3-3? Tried to give myself some leeway with my "...or some variation of it". To put it simplistic you're just replacing one of the cbs with a dcm (obviously there's more to it than that). My point was rather that we're stuck with playin two forwards for the forseeable future and since we have no wingers I just figured that meant 3-5-2.
Think this is a much better line up -
---------de gea --------
rafael--rojo--Jones--Shaw
---------Blind-------
Januzaj--Herrera---Di Maria
------Falcao--Rooney----
Or even a 4-2-2-2 with Herrera next to Blind. Think this is the most balanced team we have. Defensively sound, creative, quick, width, high pressing, good counter attacking players and allows us to play two strikers.
---------de gea --------
rafael--rojo--Jones--Shaw
---------Blind-------
Januzaj--Herrera---Di Maria
------Falcao--Rooney----
Or even a 4-2-2-2 with Herrera next to Blind. Think this is the most balanced team we have. Defensively sound, creative, quick, width, high pressing, good counter attacking players and allows us to play two strikers.
I like that WW formation:
Van Persie.......Falcao
Rooney
Di Maria......Herrera
Shaw....Blind.....Rafael
Jones Rojo
Rooney
Di Maria......Herrera
Shaw....Blind.....Rafael
Jones Rojo
I think we can really now adjust to the Barcelona variation of the 3-5-2/4-3-3 under Pep where the 3rd centre back was really more like an anchor midfielder
(Busquets) who dropped deep when he was needed to. This way we have someone who is defensively sound but doesn't lack when it comes to contributing to an attack as well.
(Busquets) who dropped deep when he was needed to. This way we have someone who is defensively sound but doesn't lack when it comes to contributing to an attack as well.
Completely agree, he will give it at least 1/4 of the season.
I don't think we will ever have a problem fitting all of our attacking players in a team; they'll all inevitably suffer injuries throughout the season.
Yeah, like I stated above, I'm pretty certain this shape is what LvG had in mind when he gave the OK on the signings we've made this summer. We also have enough quality in depth to rotate in most positions while stile maintaining the same shape, perhaps with the exception of the two runners in midfield, which is why I'm sure he'll go back for Strootman in January if his recovery goes well. Right now we're vulnerable if Di Maria or Herrera is injured, because we don't have any other proper runners who can fill the same roles I imagine LvG sees them in, which means we'll have to alter our shape a bit with either of them out.
Maybe, like @Rowem pointed out, Januzaj or Fellaini can in a pinch, but from what I've read about Blind I don't think he's mobile enough.
My guess is that this has been the plan all along. We just simlpy haven't had the players necessary to implement it available because of injuries and what not. Of course, it'll be branded as a complete tactical turn-around by LvG in the media, now that we can finally go with it.
Of course, all of this is just speculation on my part, but it certainly seems likely given who we've brought in, as well as the fact that we're still said to be after Strootman in January. If we manage to get him as well, we'll pretty much be all stocked up (apart from maybe right wing back) and be able to switch out every player and still retain the same shape and philosphy. After that it's just a matter of switching out the individual players in order to improve, either by bringing through youth or buying someone. So anyone who's saying that we've been shopping without a plan, obviously aren't seeing what I'm seeing. Everyone we've brought in will be filling a role within this system and philosophy.
I think our best formation at this point is 4-4-2 (diamond)
------------DDG----------
Rafael---Jones---Rojo----Shaw
------------Blind-----------
------Herrera-----Di Maria----
------------Mata---------
-------Falcao----Rooney---
------------DDG----------
Rafael---Jones---Rojo----Shaw
------------Blind-----------
------Herrera-----Di Maria----
------------Mata---------
-------Falcao----Rooney---
Agreed, that does look the most solid and exciting at the same time.
I kind of like the 352 formation actually. Read a lot of good things bout it if executed properly. The problem is in the past 3 games we have seen average players playing in key areas in this formation (Fletcher, young, Valencia) and hence the poor execution of it. If you go back to review the games, you'll see that this formation opens up a lot of space for our midfielders and forwards to exploit, unfortunately the ball never reached them fast enough.
As long as I see 3 out of the 4 in Rooney, RVP, Mata and Falcao on the pitch, I ll be a happy camper.
--I think he'll change it now to 3-2-3-2. That's the only way he can fit in all of the big names. Still no room for Januzaj though. But there will be no width in the team. Therefor very vulnerable. There'll be 5 attacking players and 5 defensive players.
--------------- De Gea -------------
-- Smalling --- Jones ----- Rojo -----
------- Herrera ----- Blind ---------
----- Mata --- Rooney --- Di Maria -----
--------- Falcao ---- Van Persie --------
I think this is how LvG will try it. Possibly Fletcher instead of Herrera. And when Carrick returns he'll be in for that position and possibly Blind's. But as I said, no width. Makes it very vulnerable, both offensively and especially defensively. I can't see it working. But this line-up makes the most sense with the transfers that have been made.
--------------- De Gea -------------
-- Smalling --- Jones ----- Rojo -----
------- Herrera ----- Blind ---------
----- Mata --- Rooney --- Di Maria -----
--------- Falcao ---- Van Persie --------
I think this is how LvG will try it. Possibly Fletcher instead of Herrera. And when Carrick returns he'll be in for that position and possibly Blind's. But as I said, no width. Makes it very vulnerable, both offensively and especially defensively. I can't see it working. But this line-up makes the most sense with the transfers that have been made.
If we keep playing 3-5-2, it will be valencia and Young again on WB's, which would make me want to throw up after such an amazing window.
I just hope LVG comes back to his senses and goes for a conventional back 4.
I just hope LVG comes back to his senses and goes for a conventional back 4.
Please please this.. On the bench you have, GK, Evans, Valencia, Young, RVP, Wilson, Januzaj.
We have players who can come of the bench and make an impact as well. That is the best formation, because, it doesnt involve Valencia and Young on the starting lineup. God,I hate seeing them play.
Nice post. I think you're spot on there.
The diamond and the 3-5-2 aren't too different, as you say if the third centre back plays a hybrid CB/DM role then you're talking a marginal difference. I suspect it will look more like a diamond once implemented.
This system makes too much sense for Van Gaal not to play it, it's perfect for Di Maria, Mata, Herrera, Rooney, van Persie and Falcao.
The only player who misses out is Januzaj but as noted previously he's more than capable of playing either the #10 or support striker role in the diamond system. If he plays well enough he'll force his way in, not that I expect that to happen this season given the quality of the competition.
The only thing that's holding back LVG from scrapping the 3-5-2 is his regard for Shaw & Rafael. He doesn't seem to rate them so we might not see 4 in the back for a bit. If we go 4 in the back, it would seem natural to have those 2 there, but LVG doesn't seem comfortable having either of them there. I'm thinking he'd like to try Rojo or Blind as the the left wingback first, with maybe Young on the other side.
----------------------DDG-------------------
Rafael---Jones/Smalling-Rojo/Evans---Shaw
-----------------------Blind-------------------
--------------Herrera---------Di Maria---------
-------Januzaj-----------Rooney/Mata------
----------------------Falcao--------------------
This is our best formation. Now that we have Blind to protect the defence there is no reason not to go back to 4 defenders. Shaw and Rafael are brilliant attacking full backs and should be played there.
Di Maria can play the left midfielder role he mastered at Madrid providing attacking width from the left when it suits supported by Shaw. Januzaj can provide width from the right supported by Rafael. Rooney/Mata can have a free role. It's very fluid and has bags of pace and quality. It's the best team in England imo. Hopefully LVG feels the same
Rafael---Jones/Smalling-Rojo/Evans---Shaw
-----------------------Blind-------------------
--------------Herrera---------Di Maria---------
-------Januzaj-----------Rooney/Mata------
----------------------Falcao--------------------
This is our best formation. Now that we have Blind to protect the defence there is no reason not to go back to 4 defenders. Shaw and Rafael are brilliant attacking full backs and should be played there.
Di Maria can play the left midfielder role he mastered at Madrid providing attacking width from the left when it suits supported by Shaw. Januzaj can provide width from the right supported by Rafael. Rooney/Mata can have a free role. It's very fluid and has bags of pace and quality. It's the best team in England imo. Hopefully LVG feels the same
3-5-2 will remain but like a few clever people have pointed out it will be used in the same relative way Liverpool play it. So when we don't have the ball we will be situated as a 4-4-2 however in possession Blind will drop back into the defense whilst the two centre halves split allowing the full backs to push up the pitch. This formation however will require a fit Shaw and Rafael. I think the best business in January would be a new right back than has excellent delivery and can stay fit.
My preferred XI and formation as well.
The problem with 3-5-2 that we have been playing is that.. the defenders are seeing a lot of the ball.. Our defenders are the "hoof" type, Blackett, Evans.. who are not adept to be a ball passing defender..As a result of this our forwards are not getting much of the ball in the promising areas.. Blind should improve this going forward..
Also, Valencia and young are shit wingbacks.. one more reason.. that we are flopping.. if you give them the ball.. they are passing it back to the defence... and the defenders hvae no where to pass..
Valencia .. Young.. even if they get to decent positions.. their default instinct is to "cross" .. and they are not good at it.. as well as the defence have them covered..
Once Shaw, Rafael come in.. we should start creating lot of chances.. with Demaria, Blind and harrerra linking defence to Offence
Also, Valencia and young are shit wingbacks.. one more reason.. that we are flopping.. if you give them the ball.. they are passing it back to the defence... and the defenders hvae no where to pass..
Valencia .. Young.. even if they get to decent positions.. their default instinct is to "cross" .. and they are not good at it.. as well as the defence have them covered..
Once Shaw, Rafael come in.. we should start creating lot of chances.. with Demaria, Blind and harrerra linking defence to Offence
My preferred set-up:
---------------------DDG
Rafael----Rojo/Evans---Smalling/Jones---Shaw
---------Herrera---Blind----Carrick
-------------Di Maria-----Rooney
------------------RVP/Falcao
Mata and Januzaj options of course to play in behind the striker and Rooney an option to play as the #9.
Pros: 3 in midfield so unlikely to be outnumbered in this area. Back four which is a more familiar set-up. Less games for the likes of Valencia and Young.
Cons: Challenge in achieving width. Can't fit all our star players in.
With the ball:
Without the ball:
Substitutions:
Plan B:
It's going to be challenging keeping all of our star players happy this season with just one game per week. If we can be competing on 4 fronts next season then I do believe that, with rotation, we can give all the big names enough matches to keep them happy. With the attacking depth available we would also have good chances of silverware providing we click and our defence is restored to a solid platform.
We absolutely must make the top 4 this season.
---------------------DDG
Rafael----Rojo/Evans---Smalling/Jones---Shaw
---------Herrera---Blind----Carrick
-------------Di Maria-----Rooney
------------------RVP/Falcao
Mata and Januzaj options of course to play in behind the striker and Rooney an option to play as the #9.
Pros: 3 in midfield so unlikely to be outnumbered in this area. Back four which is a more familiar set-up. Less games for the likes of Valencia and Young.
Cons: Challenge in achieving width. Can't fit all our star players in.
With the ball:
Blind drops into the backline to give better distribution from deep, allowing one or both full-backs to go forward to give us the width.
------------------DDG
-------CB-------Blind-------CB
----------Carrick--Herrera
Rafael------------------------Shaw
Two options of attack:
Focus play centrally with ST, Di Maria, Rooney, Herrera exchanging passes, making the play and the opposition defence narrow to allow space out wide for the full-backs to advance unopposed. City do this with great success with Zabaleta getting forward. We did this well to an extent in recent matches but Valencia's end product was poor. Rafael's will be better.
Attack with width - Di Maria can drift to either flank to try and create 2 v 1 situations with Shaw and Rafael overlapping. From the right Di Maria is a huge threat cutting in and from the left he can provide a telling cross given half a yard of space. In this scenario Rooney would ghost into the box to make a 2nd striker.
------------------DDG
-------CB-------Blind-------CB
----------Carrick--Herrera
Rafael------------------------Shaw
Two options of attack:
Focus play centrally with ST, Di Maria, Rooney, Herrera exchanging passes, making the play and the opposition defence narrow to allow space out wide for the full-backs to advance unopposed. City do this with great success with Zabaleta getting forward. We did this well to an extent in recent matches but Valencia's end product was poor. Rafael's will be better.
Attack with width - Di Maria can drift to either flank to try and create 2 v 1 situations with Shaw and Rafael overlapping. From the right Di Maria is a huge threat cutting in and from the left he can provide a telling cross given half a yard of space. In this scenario Rooney would ghost into the box to make a 2nd striker.
Without the ball:
Rafael------CB--------CB-----Shaw
------Herrera---Blind----Carrick
The midfield shuffle along as necessary to try and prevent 2 v 1 situations out wide whilst still providing protection in front of the centre-halves.
Attackers without the ball:
Di Maria--------------------------Rooney
-----------------ST
Di Maria and Rooney pull wide to stretch the opposition defence and to provide a threat on the counter attack. Di Maria is the out ball and having a player like him who can beat a man can really open things up for us. The opposition will be wary of leaving him 1v1 and this may deter full-backs from overlapping. Rooney has good pace on the counter without the ball to get up the pitch and into the box.
------Herrera---Blind----Carrick
The midfield shuffle along as necessary to try and prevent 2 v 1 situations out wide whilst still providing protection in front of the centre-halves.
Attackers without the ball:
Di Maria--------------------------Rooney
-----------------ST
Di Maria and Rooney pull wide to stretch the opposition defence and to provide a threat on the counter attack. Di Maria is the out ball and having a player like him who can beat a man can really open things up for us. The opposition will be wary of leaving him 1v1 and this may deter full-backs from overlapping. Rooney has good pace on the counter without the ball to get up the pitch and into the box.
Substitutions:
Without needing to change system we would have the strength in depth to make the following 3 subs:
RVP for Falcao
Mata for Rooney
Januzaj for Di Maria
That is considerable firepower to have available in the last 30 mins of the match.
RVP for Falcao
Mata for Rooney
Januzaj for Di Maria
That is considerable firepower to have available in the last 30 mins of the match.
Plan B:
If we need to turn things around we can switch to a more attacking set-up with a single sub by replacing one of the midfield 3 for a winger.
e.g
----------Herrera---Blind
Di Maria------------------Januzaj
----------Rooney--Falcao
Di Maria heads out wide and we have a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1. A simple switch with nobody moved to an alien position. In recent matches an example of an attacking change has been to take off one of the 3 defenders for an attacking player, leaving Ashley Young or Valencia playing as orthodox full-backs in a back 4. This is far from ideal. The first attacking move should not require us to break our backline - that should be left for more desperate situations
e.g
----------Herrera---Blind
Di Maria------------------Januzaj
----------Rooney--Falcao
Di Maria heads out wide and we have a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1. A simple switch with nobody moved to an alien position. In recent matches an example of an attacking change has been to take off one of the 3 defenders for an attacking player, leaving Ashley Young or Valencia playing as orthodox full-backs in a back 4. This is far from ideal. The first attacking move should not require us to break our backline - that should be left for more desperate situations
It's going to be challenging keeping all of our star players happy this season with just one game per week. If we can be competing on 4 fronts next season then I do believe that, with rotation, we can give all the big names enough matches to keep them happy. With the attacking depth available we would also have good chances of silverware providing we click and our defence is restored to a solid platform.
We absolutely must make the top 4 this season.
If we're going to persist with the 3-5-2, I think this is what we might see:
----------------De Gea-------------
---Jones------Smalling---------Rojo---
Valencia-------Blind-----------------Shaw
------------Herrera---Di Maria---------
---------------Rooney-----------
---------------Falcao--------
----------------De Gea-------------
---Jones------Smalling---------Rojo---
Valencia-------Blind-----------------Shaw
------------Herrera---Di Maria---------
---------------Rooney-----------
---------------Falcao--------
Valencia over Rafael? Are you touched in the head?
I'd also prefer Rafael. Though I have a feeling Valencia will be first choice (as a wing back) not a full back, mostly down to stamina, in the 3-5-2. As I said in my original post, this is what I think we might see, not what I would want.
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