Our options with 4 at the back would be Evans and Jones in the centre and Young and Valencia at fullback? Or lets say Jones moved out to RB then that would leave Blackett with less protection as one of 2 CBs. When LvG has a full set of players fit it gives LvG chance to play Shaw or Rojo at LB and Rafa at RB or even play them more effectively as WB. Given our injuries atm there is hardly any room for manoeuvre.
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
- Start date
Kill it with fire
It encourages us to find room for 2 wing backs and 3 central defenders - that's why we end up with the likes of Evans, Young and Valencia in the side
They are awful but the only ones capable of filling these positions
It encourages us to find room for 2 wing backs and 3 central defenders - that's why we end up with the likes of Evans, Young and Valencia in the side
They are awful but the only ones capable of filling these positions
Highly doubtful. Not many like the current system.
Fair enough man. I think Herrera could certainly play there with Di Maria and that it would be a huge improvement, particularly in possession.
Fletcher offered nothing today that Herrera wouldn't have. We also are so, so poor at keeping the ball and building from the back that we need a good passer in midfield. I think it's a certainty that he'll try Herrera there.
Exactly. People are acting like we have good fit fullbacks to use in a back 4 atm.
Needs scraped, it's the root cause of this tripe we're witnessing, doesn't suit us at all.
The players don't have a clue out there, Beglin mentioned it on commentary that nothing is coming natural to players with this system, he's right everything's being over thought to the degree it's having a negative impact on certain individuals and the team as a whole. Cohesion and fluidity just isn't there. I thought when LvG first used this 352 bollocks it would've masked our weaknesses in defense and midfield plus get Mata,RvP and Rooney all on the pitch in their favored positions, but it's only made the problem worse. Those three shouldn't be on the pitch together, that's clear to me now. So i don't see any reason for the 352 anymore.
Hopefully after the international break LvG "wakes up and smells the coffee" so we don't have to endure this rubbish again.
The players don't have a clue out there, Beglin mentioned it on commentary that nothing is coming natural to players with this system, he's right everything's being over thought to the degree it's having a negative impact on certain individuals and the team as a whole. Cohesion and fluidity just isn't there. I thought when LvG first used this 352 bollocks it would've masked our weaknesses in defense and midfield plus get Mata,RvP and Rooney all on the pitch in their favored positions, but it's only made the problem worse. Those three shouldn't be on the pitch together, that's clear to me now. So i don't see any reason for the 352 anymore.
Hopefully after the international break LvG "wakes up and smells the coffee" so we don't have to endure this rubbish again.
Scrap it and go 4-3-3:
--------De Gea--------
Rafael Jones Rojo Shaw
-----Blind---Herrera----
---------Mata---------
Di Maria Rooney Januzaj
That should be our team when everyone is fit. Possibly v.Persie in for Rooney.
--------De Gea--------
Rafael Jones Rojo Shaw
-----Blind---Herrera----
---------Mata---------
Di Maria Rooney Januzaj
That should be our team when everyone is fit. Possibly v.Persie in for Rooney.
This formation creates numerous problems
1. We don't have ball playing center halves. They are cowards who either hoof it or slowly roll it back to de Gea
2. Our midfield isn't strong enough defensively to play it, they aren't showing enough for the ball
3. Our "wingbacks" are two of our worst players, Valencia and Young
4. No pace up front
5. Mata, Rooney and Van Persie all getting in each others way
6. No good delivery from wide positions, as touched upon in point 3, our "wingbacks" are shit
1. We don't have ball playing center halves. They are cowards who either hoof it or slowly roll it back to de Gea
2. Our midfield isn't strong enough defensively to play it, they aren't showing enough for the ball
3. Our "wingbacks" are two of our worst players, Valencia and Young
4. No pace up front
5. Mata, Rooney and Van Persie all getting in each others way
6. No good delivery from wide positions, as touched upon in point 3, our "wingbacks" are shit
With van Persie and Rooney playing like crap what's the point of playing 352?
Yeah, just realised our fullbacks would be Young and Valencia. Or Evans and Jones, don't know which is worse.
It only works if the CB's are willing to bring the ball out and your fullbacks are top notch. When Shaw and Rafael are back it will look much better. Rojo i suspect will also be willing to take the ball up and link with the Midfield. With the current back 3 the problems are: Evans is a bit of a coward. Blackett is a talent but he has a tendency for the long ball rather than continuing the run. Jones is more of a brick wall than a Rolls Royce. However when everyone is fit I would like to see a back four of Shaw, Rojo, Jones/Smalling, Rafael. Evans has been our worst CB for me. This is the formation I would like to see: (Rooney/RVP interchangeable)
----------DDG
Rafael--Jones--Rojo--Shaw
-----Herrera---Blind
----------Mata
Januzaj---Rooney---Di Maria
----------DDG
Rafael--Jones--Rojo--Shaw
-----Herrera---Blind
----------Mata
Januzaj---Rooney---Di Maria
If this continues with the same kind of form we either change it or I'm opening the LVG to be sacked camp.
I don't judge things on name, he has great pedigree but the formation and stubbornness about it is a joke. If it was Moyes he'd be called clueless.
I don't judge things on name, he has great pedigree but the formation and stubbornness about it is a joke. If it was Moyes he'd be called clueless.
People thinking the 3 at the back is our problem are beyond clueless.
Like putting Blackett at LB and Valencia at RB would suddenly solve our problems...
Yeah I am sick of this 3-5-2 now and think it needs to go.
Hopefully when get get Rafael and Shaw back we can move to 4 at the back with someone to sit in front of them, two wide players to create from the wings and then Mata and Rooney moving centrally in the space to open things up.
Just hope LVG will go back on this formation and it is simply being used as a stop gap whilst we bring our players back to fitness. Rather than making us difficult to beat it seems to leave us quite open.
Hopefully when get get Rafael and Shaw back we can move to 4 at the back with someone to sit in front of them, two wide players to create from the wings and then Mata and Rooney moving centrally in the space to open things up.
Just hope LVG will go back on this formation and it is simply being used as a stop gap whilst we bring our players back to fitness. Rather than making us difficult to beat it seems to leave us quite open.
It is not the system, in fact I think the system is the only reason we still have two points right now instead of 0.
A back 4 in the future might be the way to go, however he just doesn't have the players available to make it work. With the players we currently have fit it would be a disaster.
Blind for me has been the perfect signing. Im a big big fan of Blind playing as CDM at Ajax, defensive strong, able to rush forward and excellent passing. He can be the savior to our weak midfield if we don't manage to land a giant signing.
All i wonder is....WHAT THE feck ARE YOU WAITING FOR LVG? You have been preaching our goddamn system for decades. Flaming everything else that involves longballing and a static formation. And now you give us this shit? Totally not the LVG i admired for the past 20 years. And in wondering whats holding him back. And i think its the Rooney/RvP issue. Drop Rooney and get it over with. And start showing the LVG we all love.
All i wonder is....WHAT THE feck ARE YOU WAITING FOR LVG? You have been preaching our goddamn system for decades. Flaming everything else that involves longballing and a static formation. And now you give us this shit? Totally not the LVG i admired for the past 20 years. And in wondering whats holding him back. And i think its the Rooney/RvP issue. Drop Rooney and get it over with. And start showing the LVG we all love.
DDG
Rafael - Jones - Rojo - Shaw
Blind
Mata - Rooney/Herrera
Di Maria - Van Persie - Januzaj
Rafael - Jones - Rojo - Shaw
Blind
Mata - Rooney/Herrera
Di Maria - Van Persie - Januzaj
Just watching the City game for 3 minutes makes you realise how rigid the 352 is. Already Nasri has been over on the right wing, Aguero on the halfway line creating space being him.
I think it's really tough to judge the 3-5-2 at this stage. It hasn't been a good start, that much is clear, but it needs more time.
Personally, I think the whole system is hugely reliant on the full backs. In essence, it's like having a 3-3-2 spine, with two wide players covering the whole length of the pitch, effectively making it a 5-3-2 when defending, a 3-5-2 when building up, and a 3-3-4 when attacking.
I reckon the system has huge potential, but due to injuries and delayed signings, the two full backs are currently Young and Valencia. If we swapped them for the likes of Shaw, Rojo, Blind or Rafael, would the new system work much better? I think it would, and we should find out shortly after the international break.
Personally, I think the whole system is hugely reliant on the full backs. In essence, it's like having a 3-3-2 spine, with two wide players covering the whole length of the pitch, effectively making it a 5-3-2 when defending, a 3-5-2 when building up, and a 3-3-4 when attacking.
I reckon the system has huge potential, but due to injuries and delayed signings, the two full backs are currently Young and Valencia. If we swapped them for the likes of Shaw, Rojo, Blind or Rafael, would the new system work much better? I think it would, and we should find out shortly after the international break.
I'd like to add that there're no guarantees that shaw and rafael will do better when they return, both are much more defensive than young and valencia.
Really strange how he seems so keen on persisting with this. He only used it at the WC with Holland because Strootman got injured so it's not like it's his favoured formation. The main reasons he seems to be using it is to fit Mata, Rooney and RVP into the team but why go out of your way to do this when Mata is playing so badly? It needs to be shelved and 433 or 4231 has to be used from now on. One of Rooney, RVP or Mata will be on the bench which isn't ideal but the team will be better off for it.
Our problems are lying in the build up from the back and especially midfield, changing to a back 4 doesn't solve them, in fact taking a guy away from our already vulnerable looking defense would probably result in us conceding a ton of goals and losing these games instead of drawing 0-0.
We don't have the ball playing central CB for this system, Evans is getting ramrodded on here but it's because he is playing in a formation he is clearly not suited to, he is a CB, in this system when he is on the right or left he's screwed because in truth you really need more pace and mobility, it's a LB or RB role not a CB's. So far only Jones has looked like he is truly benefiting from this switch.
We'd be shaky defensively but we'd actually create something for once ourselves and control a game.
Bullshit, it's clearly the system. The players look like nervous wreaks out there, they haven't a scooby in this system at all.
Sign Cuadrado or someone like him ad keep playing this formation or forget it ffs. The wingbacks supposed to be the key players in this formation yet we have turn back Tony and Young there.
allows us to put all our best players on the pitch at the same time. The fact that some are out injured and some aren't playing well is making it look bad. give everything some time.
Shaw going forward pisses over Young. Rafael works harder than Valencia, crosses better than him aswell.
Im not sure that is correct at all.
Moving to a back 4 would allow us to play with two genuine wide men and gives the full backs (Shaw and Rafael) an out ball in these areas.
Currently we can't seem to get in behind teams and playing 3 centre halves isn't helping matters
I think he will persist with it, he seems to be adamant that is the way forward. Hope he drills it in over the next few weeks. I'm not going to hyperventilate till Christmas. Though we all have good reason to .. 
I'm consoling myself thinking of it this way .. under Moyes we started out with some wins, but it turned out our approach didn't work and we found that out as things went slowly bad. Maybe with LVG, things will start out rotten, with all the problems in highlight, and then start slowly resolving one by one and by the end of the season we'll be a fluent unit ?
I'm consoling myself thinking of it this way .. under Moyes we started out with some wins, but it turned out our approach didn't work and we found that out as things went slowly bad. Maybe with LVG, things will start out rotten, with all the problems in highlight, and then start slowly resolving one by one and by the end of the season we'll be a fluent unit ?
Young and Valencia or whoever is playing in the wingback positions need to get further up the pitch, beat their man, provide good width and put in telling crosses for this system to work properly.
I think Young had at most two crosses/one semi-dangerous run while Valencia was dire in the crossing department but made a few decent runs. These moments were among our best in the game aside from Di Maria's magic. These two positions are key!
I think Young had at most two crosses/one semi-dangerous run while Valencia was dire in the crossing department but made a few decent runs. These moments were among our best in the game aside from Di Maria's magic. These two positions are key!
The only time we looked even the tiniest bit competent was when we practically played Young and Valencia as wingers. It's painfully obvious that the 3-5-2 doesn't suit us and that's not going to change.
The frustrating thing is that I'm convinced of the fact that we would have, at the very least, six points right now if we'd played a 4-3-3 all season.
The frustrating thing is that I'm convinced of the fact that we would have, at the very least, six points right now if we'd played a 4-3-3 all season.
And oh, stop with the bloody longballs from the back! More options please for the ball to be passed to.
Although I am still quite optimistic about the whole thing once we have all our personnel back.
Although I am still quite optimistic about the whole thing once we have all our personnel back.
This system in my opinion might work better if we played with three central midfielders instead of two central midfielders and a #10, like we are doing now. If we remove the #10, that gives a chance for one of the strikers to drop back (Rooney for example) and be a #10 if need be. It might look like a diamond formation from time to time. It might give us a bit more balance. It definitely is better defensively with more help centrally and with three central midfielders, it gives a chance for the two of them to create more width by moving towards the wing if need be.
This will give way to this:
It offers a bit more security for the wing backs to push forward since the central midfielders can drop to cover. Also Blind in this formation can drop back to central defense since he can play there and Rojo and Jones can play as full backs till the wings backs get back.
Rooney-----RVP
Di Maria-----Herrera
Blind
Young------------------------Valencia
Rojo-----Smalling-----Jones
Di Maria-----Herrera
Blind
Young------------------------Valencia
Rojo-----Smalling-----Jones
This will give way to this:
RVP
Rooney
Di Maria-----Herrera
Blind
Young-----------------------Valencia
Rojo-----Smalling-----Jones
Rooney
Di Maria-----Herrera
Blind
Young-----------------------Valencia
Rojo-----Smalling-----Jones
It offers a bit more security for the wing backs to push forward since the central midfielders can drop to cover. Also Blind in this formation can drop back to central defense since he can play there and Rojo and Jones can play as full backs till the wings backs get back.
One of the worst parts about it is that it's not only not getting results but it's just so dull to watch. IT was the same in the World Cup as well...Holland weren't that great to sit through. All United games this season have been a bit of a chore really. I don't mind not winning every game and will take the odd dull match but every game is a bit much. I'd be surprised if we're still playing it after the transfer window and our players get fit to be honest, would be bit worrying if we did.
You really think this formation would have done any better today ?
-------------DDG---------------
Valencia--Jones--Evans---Blackett
-----------Fletcher---------------
-------Mata----Di Maria---------
Young-------RVP---------Rooney
The problem is we have no midfield with Herrera, Carrick, Fellaini etc all out
The problem is with Shaw and Rafael out we are forced to play one trick pony Valencia
The problem is neither Mata, Rooney nor RVP looks in form and are our most important players
Not the mention the horrible refereeing decisions in the last 2 games, that is 3 stonewall penalties that we have been denied in 2 games. That don't change our weak performance, but it could have made a heck of a difference on the result. People really thinking we looked any better in most games under Ferguson when he had to play with these players (Young, valencia, Fletcher, Anderson, Evans, an out of form Rooney etc) are deluding themselves. The big difference is we simply would have managed to score a goal, but we didn't , not vs Sunderland, not vs Bunrley and it has cost us 4 points now. Everything is going against us, injurries, refereeing decisions etc on top of a team that already was so low on confidence from last year and than the big players that should let themselves be counted are all in a bad spell, new manager, new system, it is all working against us. But people that think it is just the 3-5-2 system that is blocking us from playing freeflowing football and taking the points away from these teams are seriously deluding themselves. It will take time, time for players to get back to fitness, time to gel and take to the new system, time to get used to the manager, time for our luck to change. It sucks and it hurts massively and we might effectively be losing all our ground to make top 4, but there is not much to be done right now except be patient and wait. But changing back to another system isn't going to solve anything for us.
Switch to a 433/4312 ASAP.
We cannot play the a 4 at the back formation with Rafael and Shaw (our only true fullbacks) out. Otherwise we will end up playing 4-4-2/4-3-3/4-2-3-1 or some formation that has attacking wingers and wingers as fullbacks which is destined to feck us over more than now
This system will never work, in my opinion.
Our defenders are not confident or confident enough on the ball. The system depends on them bringing the ball out of defence.
We have no width. There is nobody going on the outside, meaning everything gets congested in the middle. Our players lack so much pace through the middle. The ball keeps being spread out wide to Valencia or Young who can do nothing else but turn back inside or hit the ball of the first man and then the cycle happens again. It's ridiculous.
It's far too slow, boring and predictable.
Our defenders are not confident or confident enough on the ball. The system depends on them bringing the ball out of defence.
We have no width. There is nobody going on the outside, meaning everything gets congested in the middle. Our players lack so much pace through the middle. The ball keeps being spread out wide to Valencia or Young who can do nothing else but turn back inside or hit the ball of the first man and then the cycle happens again. It's ridiculous.
It's far too slow, boring and predictable.