I do, question is can he control his nerves and regain his confidence and more importantly can the rest of the team do that aswell. I think they can and I think it is also the reason why LVG hasn't put them up for sale in the transfermarket.
So the 3-5-2
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I do, question is can he control his nerves and regain his confidence and more importantly can the rest of the team do that aswell. I think they can and I think it is also the reason why LVG hasn't put them up for sale in the transfermarket.
No stakes there then?
Was reading a recent piece on Glenn Hoddle and here is an excerpt where they talk about his 352 when he managed England.
3-5-2 is actually a really successful system and right up there with any other formation you care to mention. In terms of the World Cup of the sides I know of, Italy '82, Argentina '86, Germany '90 and Brazil '02 all won the World Cup playing some variant of a 3-5-2 system. That's a fantastic record and I'm not sure they will be any better. Likewise at the Euro's Denmark in '92 and Germany in '96 won the European Championships with a 3-5-2. There will also be a host of second place finishes for 3-5-2's, such as Germany in '86, Argentina in '90 or Germany and Italy at Euro '92 and 2000 respectively. On the International Stage it has been extremely successful.
Within Club football Juve are obviously dominating Serie A right now playing a 3-5-2 and there have been many great sides in the past, such as Totti's Scudetto winning Roma team, Zidane's Juventus who reached three Champions League finals in three years, Sammer's Dortmund or Redondo's Madrid who IIRC actually made the switch to a 3-5-2 when they knocked United out of the Champions League in 2000.
Thought of the day and something that has been bugging me for awhile having watched the three games so far.
If you look at the number of times we've been under pressure as a whole when the opposition have the ball, it's very less.
Apart from the first match against Swansea, when it was the positioning of Mata which let Ki have all the room in the world to score from midfield, we don't give away too many chances.
So how do the opposition score? More often than not, it's when we have the ball. Almost always it's when we give away the ball in a stupid position that leads to the opposition breaking on us and dismantling our defence. Look at MK Dons -
MK Dons 4 - 0 United
- First goal Johnny error
- second goal Michael Keane gave it away on the right side with a bad sideward pass, which led them break on us
- Third Matt James has a horrible touch and they break through our defence from the right side, coupled with some bad defending by Vermeijl
- The fourth goal was the only one where they scored with the ball and it's down to HORRIBLE defending by Vermeijl and Evans. THat has nothing to do with formation. Misjudged by Vermeijl and Evans, Afobe bursts through to score.
Sunderland 1 - 1 United
This was a much better defensive performance. We gave very little away but at the expense of decent forward play. Ever wondered why we look so shite going forward? It's because there is significant risk in the way we transfer from defence to attack. The defenders have to move forward with the ball and not give it away while in possession. If you do, you end up like the second and third goals against MK Dons. So our players played cautiously with fear of giving the ball away. This is why inventiveness is lacking in our team. It requires very strong midfielders to shore up the formation. At Holland it was Sneijder and De Jong, would press well and keep the ball well.
- The only goal given away was from a corner. Which any team is susceptible to.
- We did face some trouble from defensive confusion in the first 20 minutes. The inexperience was showing. But after that, apart from good Sunderland play, we didn't look all that fragile. We looked just as alright as any defence. By no means solid, but we were sound.
United 1 - 2 Swansea
This was a poor game. Defensively we were poor and all in all a bad day.
So this 3-5-2 depends a whole lot on how the defence carries the ball forward. Rojo is someone who can do that expertly. I'm sure Van Gaal will add someone else who can do that.
It's in that build-up that if we let the ball go, we become vulnerable. That is the current problem.
If you look at the number of times we've been under pressure as a whole when the opposition have the ball, it's very less.
Apart from the first match against Swansea, when it was the positioning of Mata which let Ki have all the room in the world to score from midfield, we don't give away too many chances.
So how do the opposition score? More often than not, it's when we have the ball. Almost always it's when we give away the ball in a stupid position that leads to the opposition breaking on us and dismantling our defence. Look at MK Dons -
MK Dons 4 - 0 United
- First goal Johnny error
- second goal Michael Keane gave it away on the right side with a bad sideward pass, which led them break on us
- Third Matt James has a horrible touch and they break through our defence from the right side, coupled with some bad defending by Vermeijl
- The fourth goal was the only one where they scored with the ball and it's down to HORRIBLE defending by Vermeijl and Evans. THat has nothing to do with formation. Misjudged by Vermeijl and Evans, Afobe bursts through to score.
Sunderland 1 - 1 United
This was a much better defensive performance. We gave very little away but at the expense of decent forward play. Ever wondered why we look so shite going forward? It's because there is significant risk in the way we transfer from defence to attack. The defenders have to move forward with the ball and not give it away while in possession. If you do, you end up like the second and third goals against MK Dons. So our players played cautiously with fear of giving the ball away. This is why inventiveness is lacking in our team. It requires very strong midfielders to shore up the formation. At Holland it was Sneijder and De Jong, would press well and keep the ball well.
- The only goal given away was from a corner. Which any team is susceptible to.
- We did face some trouble from defensive confusion in the first 20 minutes. The inexperience was showing. But after that, apart from good Sunderland play, we didn't look all that fragile. We looked just as alright as any defence. By no means solid, but we were sound.
United 1 - 2 Swansea
This was a poor game. Defensively we were poor and all in all a bad day.
So this 3-5-2 depends a whole lot on how the defence carries the ball forward. Rojo is someone who can do that expertly. I'm sure Van Gaal will add someone else who can do that.
It's in that build-up that if we let the ball go, we become vulnerable. That is the current problem.
Bin it!
We need four at the back in the EPL to compete against the top teams. I can't see what the problem is with a straightforward 4 3 3 utilising all of our recent signings to scare the shit out of the opposition.
------------DDG------------
-Rafael Rojo Evans Shaw-
-Herrera Fellaini Di Maria-
----Mata Rooney RVP----
We need four at the back in the EPL to compete against the top teams. I can't see what the problem is with a straightforward 4 3 3 utilising all of our recent signings to scare the shit out of the opposition.
------------DDG------------
-Rafael Rojo Evans Shaw-
-Herrera Fellaini Di Maria-
----Mata Rooney RVP----
Considering we just bought 2 players (Di Maria and Blind) who feel most comfortable in 3 man midfield, the 3-5-2 will probably die in the next couple of weeks.
Blind will play LCB today and Di Maria will start in CM next to fletcher in 3-5-2, calling it now
the probably is mata and one of rvp/rooney either dropped or out of position. we complained all last year about how people were played out of position and then 1 loss and a draw and we're happy to go back to it
Are you being serious? He's still in Holland and the match kicks off in 2 hours. What's he going to do, fly straight onto the Turf Moor pitch? And he's not registered anyway and the deal isn't done yet. And other stuff I can't even be arsed explaining as to why he will not be playing today.
I dont understand how this system is supposed to give us an extra man in midfield yet we never have anyone free for the pass?
It really boggles the mind
It really boggles the mind
Fletcher is finished, that's why. Our defence can't pass for shit and Ashley Young/Valencia are both cowards.
Playing rooney, mata and van persie is as bad as playing the 1-3-5-2 with our current defenders and midfielder. Van Gaal looks as cowardly as Moyes so far. A competant manager wouod switch to a 1-4-2-2-2 or a 1-4-2-1-3 and emphasize the aspect of pace in our attack. Moreover, buy quality midfielders that are needed.
I hate this formation. How does this suit a players we have? Other than the front 2 who seem to struggle so far, it helps nobody.
When the team consists of fletcher valencia and young, with one paced forwards in rooney RVP and mata, nothing will be successful
We are failing in two areas:
The idea of the formation is to get Mata, Rooney and RVP all on the field but they can't do anything for two reasons:
1. The box is completely cramped because our wingers can't stretch them and break any space in behind them forcing the line back.
2. The ball rarely gets to them because of the above means they are all marked and their is no point in having that luxury front 3 if the service behind them is so poor, which it is.
#1 is that main issue. Our wingbacks are terrible, so we either have to play it long or pass it infield which Burnley expect. Seriously, Young and Valencia are doing nothing in the game, I've lost count of the amount of times they've got the ball and passed it back to either Blackett or Evans. It's extremely frustrating.
Need another midfielder for a CB. It's not working while one of the CB's won't push up.
Young can't perform like that against Madrid in a proper high stakes game in his dreams
Van Gaal's comment about us defending well in this formation ringing very hollow today. Stick an extra man in defence and we're easier to play through than ever. Go figure.
Its no surprise that our only semi-decent performance this season was 2nd half v Swansea, when we switched to 4 at the back!!
LVG must accept that this is just not going to work. Even if it will start working in three months, then the season will already be ruined again.
You mean when we played good for 20 minutes then lost control when Herrera went off? We didn't look like scoring then either.
Our back 3 constantly look terrified on the ball and with good reason. Fletcher isn't offering himself much and they haven't got someone like Welbeck to run the channels. Just RVP/Rooney standing 1v1 with defenders and Mata being crowded out centrally. Even when we get the ball into the front 3 there's zero support from wide areas and when it arrives it's in the form of Young/Valencia.
Yes - but for that 20 minutes we did play decent, the best we've played all season and that's not saying much. It was stupid of van gaal to take off herrera and leave fletcher on, that's what interrupted the rhythm of the team!
And this so all VG, hey this will work , I will play Valencia and young has our width, and our advanced forwards are Rooney mata and RVP players who are 28 and 31, and in mata's case was sold because of his lack if mobility, to top it off we will play di Maria our quickest forward away from the final third, this is what you call tactically inept performances from VG
Problem 1 - Centre backs are too far apart, when we're on the ball it makes sense that they spread out, the problem is when we dont have the ball, they're too still spread out. This'll only improve with an organiser in there.
Problem 2 - Wing backs. Valencia and Young are just embarrassing really. In a perfect world you'll have to be an exceptional wing back for this formation to work but you can get by with basic things like stamina and workrate, we've been told that's two things Young and Valencia have, yet everytime someone who isnt Young and Valencia have the ball, Young and Valencia either take stationary positions wide or they're nowhere to be seen because they're so far back. Burnley wing backs havent had to worry about them and so they just gobble up Rooney and van Persie anytime they have the ball. Until these Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime Valencia and Young understand that their movement is crucial to this system working, it'll never be a success. Thankfully once our proper wing backs return these two will feck off.
Problem 2 - Wing backs. Valencia and Young are just embarrassing really. In a perfect world you'll have to be an exceptional wing back for this formation to work but you can get by with basic things like stamina and workrate, we've been told that's two things Young and Valencia have, yet everytime someone who isnt Young and Valencia have the ball, Young and Valencia either take stationary positions wide or they're nowhere to be seen because they're so far back. Burnley wing backs havent had to worry about them and so they just gobble up Rooney and van Persie anytime they have the ball. Until these Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime Valencia and Young understand that their movement is crucial to this system working, it'll never be a success. Thankfully once our proper wing backs return these two will feck off.
Worked well for him in the World Cup, clearly doesn't work in the Premier League.
Having a defense like we have and players like Darren Fletcher doesn't help though, maybe it will be different when the likes of Blind/Herrera/Rojo/Shaw come in but I'm not totally convinced.
Having a defense like we have and players like Darren Fletcher doesn't help though, maybe it will be different when the likes of Blind/Herrera/Rojo/Shaw come in but I'm not totally convinced.
It doesn't work. 3 games in and we've hardly created anything. The defenders look scared, the wing-backs are doing nothing and Mata + front 2 have hardly linked up.
Really hope we go to 4-3-3 after the international games.
Really hope we go to 4-3-3 after the international games.
Agree 100%
Unfortunately, I think he'll stick with it until it works or he gets sacked.
to sum VG up, swap di maria for anderson, cannot get any worse than that, well valencia and young are still on the pitch
I'll say it early - I'm sure it doesn't help because it's something else the players have to learn. But it's a small issue in our problems.
Come off it. This is what we've got right now, with three midfielders out and a fourth who is about to join.
I worry this will happen too. His ego might stand in the way.
with valencia and young the heart beat of the creativity
It's awful. We have some of the best attacking players in the world and we are creating feck all. Awful formation
He changed the dutch formation ahead of the world cup then changed it during matches. So where was the ego there?
It's far too simplistic to blame the formation when the passing and movement are so dire.
The 3-5-2, the trying to fit Rooney, RVP and Mata together on the pitch (who all like to occupy the same space) is killing you more then anything.
More proof that first of all it doesn't work without at least one seriously good central midfielder and secondly it doesn't work in this league. Lastly it doesn't work when 2 out of your 3 centre backs are shite.