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James' gifting third goal today.. is exactly what you are talking about.. Hoof it out.. if in doubt..
James' gifting third goal today.. is exactly what you are talking about.. Hoof it out.. if in doubt..
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
- Start date
Which entirely removes the amount of thorough ball and dangerous passes he can give the team.
Funny because that is how Blackett failed against Sunderland. Tried to kick it long and failed, ended up a corner.
How can we keep the faith in a system that is NOT the hallmark/tactical preference of most winning clubs in recent years? For the record, the best clubs have won more often with 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 formations recently than with anything else. I don't remember seeing a club winning a league title in any country with the 3-5-2 formation, I haven't see a World Cup-winning team playing with 3-5-2, so why would I trust that system?
Just get the 4-3-3 formation in place already and feck the rest. Until further notice, most of our players feel more comfortable in a 4-3-3 than using that stupid and unproven tactical formation. We don't have good wingbacks, so let's stick with what we have: players who can play a system that has 4 defenders at the back.
Also, Louis said openly that he feels more comfortable with 4-3-3. So where's the problem if he and a number of players are more comfortable with that than with the 3-5-2?
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It's easy to blame the system but that's not the problem.
Wouldn't it help a little better if he wasn't so radical about going 3-5-2 at all costs?
Precisely. It doesn't matter what system you play if your players can't be arsed to go the extra mile to make it work and hide from any responsibility or play like they have a big pile of poo in their pants.
We can discuss the ins and outs as long as we want but as long as the team is this imbalanced and puts up so many gutless performances no system in the world will fix this.
Juventus won consecutive titles with a 352. The difference is that they have great wingbacks in Lichtsteiner and Asamoah. Their midfield is slightly different as they don't really have a #10, but instead Pirlo who stays back and creates.
Brazil in 2002 (a long time ago I know) but how can you not remember Juventus winning three Serie A titles with that formation ?
However I agree with your main point, 3-5-2 is fecking shit, hated it since I knew Van Gaal was gonna implement it just like I hated the idea of Moyes bringing Fellaini. It felt me with dread and that despite the preseason results which fooled a lot of people.
We don't have the players to play any kinda decent formation if a few of them are injured, very sad state of affairs.
Does he have to introduce the 352 straight away? He could wait to assemble a squad that is capable of playing it. I think Louis overestimated the quality in this United squad. If he does persist with it,how long will it take for these guys to pick it up? (If they even do). Two to 3 months he says,ok then. Lets write off this season and forget about top 4 (at this rate anyway) because LVG clearly needs it to implement this system.
This has to go, doesn't it? I don't think he'll play it for the long term, and it's not even mitigating the fact that our players are useless this days, so why stick with it? We're effectively changing formations because of how shit Young and Valencia are as wingers now that I think of it.
Sell the dross, play a 433 with the players who look up for it (short list nowadays) and build from that.
Sell the dross, play a 433 with the players who look up for it (short list nowadays) and build from that.
I just don't get why we still persist with this formation? Our wing backs in both league games and the league cup weren't good enough, they sit so deep and resemble a back 5.
As they are so deep it takes them an age to break quickly and create width where their quality lets them down. Our players don't get this system and we should not being doing it solely to accommodate Rooney and van Persie. We need to play one of them and add an extra number to midfield.
Or alternatively switch to 4-4-2/4-3-3
As they are so deep it takes them an age to break quickly and create width where their quality lets them down. Our players don't get this system and we should not being doing it solely to accommodate Rooney and van Persie. We need to play one of them and add an extra number to midfield.
Or alternatively switch to 4-4-2/4-3-3
Has Van Gaal actually played this shit system at club level?
van gaal plays this system because he doesnt trust the defense one bit. Playing with a back 5 gives each individual defender room for error. A back 4 would leak even more goals, especially because United just doesnt have a proper holding player, who can shield the defense. Its mental to think that a back4 would add defensive stability.
Another important issue is, that van gaal hates losing the ball. Van gaal combines possession with strict positional discipline like no other manager in the world. One reason why the offence is so dreadful - besides individual quality and a lack of understanding - is, because van gaal doesnt allow players to take risks.
I am not (yet) a friend of that back 3 but if we want to maintain that because of the lack of quality at the back, the I like the formation Gary Neville showed on Sky Sports
So you're telling us that we ended up with another manager who is playing the extremely conservative card? How the hell does he expect the team to score goals if not by taking risks?
The problem with this system is the wingbacks, they don't know if they should stick or twist half the time, the number of times they were too far up the pitch yesterday, leaving huge gaps and exposing the back three, but when they do attack, they're toothless, Reece James is a right back, not a winger, the opposite can be said of Young, he can't defend for toffee.
The question is will Shaw and Rafael be any better? I don't think so, Rafael works great overlapping with a winger, I don't think he can do it himself.
With the purchase of ADM, surely we will revert to a 4-3-3.
The question is will Shaw and Rafael be any better? I don't think so, Rafael works great overlapping with a winger, I don't think he can do it himself.
With the purchase of ADM, surely we will revert to a 4-3-3.
i wrote that about 4 month ago when he was appointed. I was really surprised that nobody actually knew what kind of "philosophy" van gaal represents. Everybody was always talking about exciting attacking football, but thats not his idea of football at all. Van Gaal represents a philosophie, thats more radical than spanish-tiki-taka. He doesnt follow a "conservative" approach like Mourinho, who loves parking the bus. He plays with a fairly high defence line with some pressing, but once you team has the ball, he hates losing it. You will see a shitload of passing between your defenders and the midfield just to keep possession.
He managed to make Ribery and Robben look dreadful on a regular bases (against sides that battle relegation). He partly learned his lesson. At least his tactics during the worldcup suggested that. That said he is still a possession freak, who forces players to hold their positions. I guess he will allow Di Maria a free role (similar to Robben), but the rest of the team will play extremely dire. In the end you´ll depend on individual brilliance to score goals.
I dunno I think pre-season was massively misleading in terms of us not coming up against players who were really looking to test us, even when we played big names. Particularly with Young I thought that his pace got him out of trouble in a lot of games and he just won't get that in the more competitive games as we've already seen.
When I look at our wingers/fullbacks though, leaving out ADM who I'm hoping doesn't play wingback, none of them can really function in isolation. Valencia for the last 2+ seasons has massively relied on overlapping runs to create space for him out wide and even then he's more often than not failed to create any space. Young is similar and his defensive game isn't as good.
Rafael has got the engine to get up and down but again his specialty is overlapping. He's not an Evra who can carry the ball past people really well and his crossing is eratic. I didn't see much of Shaw last season so can't comment but I imagine at this stage of his career he's similar.
I mean I don't know if I'm getting it wrong but I think your wingbacks need to be defensively capable but going forward need to be able to stretch the game and I just don't think we have the players at the moment who will do that and the problem is that we're just not good enough passing wise to then not need to rely on the wings as much. I think it's too specialist a role to just put hardowrking players there.
I know Holland pretty much did that but I think they basically got by because of Robben and that most games were played at a slower tempo due to the conditions and time of the tournament. We've brought in ADM but by the sounds of it he's going to play more central so his pace isn't going to be used to stretch teams and so I think that just makes us so reliant on being able to get our passing right and we're not exactly a specialist passing team imo.
The most important thing about 3-5-2 right now is the players buying into it, otherwise it'll fail every time.
Van gaal said it himself, during his first stint with Holland the players didn't believe in his philosophy so he failed, while on his second stint they were all on board whatever he was trying to do and it worked.
Knowing our players, they'd gladly hide behind the "system isn't working" excuse to justify their failings, footballers do that every time without fail, the moment they sense a perceived weakness in the manager from the fans and the media they'll just stop trying, if we keep playing badly it'll be either their fault or his fault, they've done it with moyes and they'd do it again with van gaal, saf was invincible in that regard.
Personally i think the time isn't right to try something new, van gaal prefers 4-3-3 and we've bought 4 players so far and more are on the way it seems, there's no point in trying something that just adds more pressure on a fragile squad, never underestimate how a bunch of cnuts our players are.
Van gaal said it himself, during his first stint with Holland the players didn't believe in his philosophy so he failed, while on his second stint they were all on board whatever he was trying to do and it worked.
Knowing our players, they'd gladly hide behind the "system isn't working" excuse to justify their failings, footballers do that every time without fail, the moment they sense a perceived weakness in the manager from the fans and the media they'll just stop trying, if we keep playing badly it'll be either their fault or his fault, they've done it with moyes and they'd do it again with van gaal, saf was invincible in that regard.
Personally i think the time isn't right to try something new, van gaal prefers 4-3-3 and we've bought 4 players so far and more are on the way it seems, there's no point in trying something that just adds more pressure on a fragile squad, never underestimate how a bunch of cnuts our players are.
I actually think that playing Jones as a midfield destroyer ahead of a back four would give way more defensive stability than Jones playing as an additional defender. It looks like the defense is always one step too late and that means it's impossible to keep the necessary shape to find some stability at the back. Everyone acts like a headless chicken, because the team has no control at all in midfield. The opponents are running freely towards the defense and the defenders are only reacting. I don't think van Gaal is the coach to install a well working back 5 that can soak up pressure and defend deep without help from midfield, he never did anything like that, yet he's really trying to do that here. It's completely mental and it has nothing to do with the problem of too many number 10s and 9s in the squad. It's his decision to play that kind of defense.
To be honest, I don't think there's a more stubborn and arrogant manager with less self-reflection than van Gaal. He believes that he's always right, 100% right and he just shifts the blame for his ridiculously bad spell with the Dutch nationalteam to the players. He fecked up, it was plain obvious, there were no excuses for his failure back then and the fact that he was successful this time doesn't change what happened back then.
Wasn't the decision to play a back 5 at the WC prompted by Strootman's injury? I always thought the idea of using this formation was to compensate for deficiencies in central midfield. If it needs a solid midfield to function effectively then what's the point of using the formation at all?
All well and good that it allows you to play two strikers and a number 10 but that's completely pointless if the formation simultaneously causes problems in midfield AND defence.
But it's true though, I've always felt that regardless to how good a system is, if the players are on board it usually works, failing to get your players believing in what you're trying to do is pretty much the downfall of all managers.
4-4-2 seems so much safer right now
My understanding is that it was this and also that they didn't have any decent fullbacks.
I don't see how the back five at the world cup made up for deficiencies in central midfield? He still had to add a defensive midfielder in de Jong and needed a lot of contribution from his AM in defense to have a 3 man midfield. It was an incredible defensive formation, solely looking to score on the counter and use individual brilliance upfront.
I didn't follow the team prior to the tournament, so I can't really comment why he played it. But I never really understood the praise for his 532 at the world cup and wrote a post on here that his tactical nous at the world cup was overrated. Other than the 2nd half against Spain, a game in which that back 5 was outplayed throughout the first half and he was lucky that they were still in the game, it never really worked well. The whole reputation of that formation working well for the Dutch team stands on crazy 45minutes with freak goals. Somehow the world decided to praise him for switching goalkeepers before the penalty shoot-out instead of criticising him for a useless formation, clearly not working tactics and failing to win the game in 120minutes against the mighty Costa Rica.
Now if you go forward to United, do you really want tactics that produce draws against individually weaker teams like we saw in the Netherlands games against Mexico and Costa Rica? If you want to turn his world cup tactics into more pro-active tactics you need to change something. Either replace one of the three defenders or the midfield destroyer with an attacking player. So far it looks like van Gaal took the midfield destroyer out and it exposes the defense again and again. It looks exactly like I wrote above. Your back 5 only reacts, they don't get any time to get into shape because there's no one in midfield protecting them and it turns everyone into a headless chicken, always a step too late and always under immense pressure to do something instantly. I'm not surprised that it constantly leads to errors in defense.
If you look at van Gaal's Ajax side in '95 when he successfully played a back 3 (F. de Boer/Blind/Reiziger), they were protected by Rijkaard in a DM/libero role acting between midfield and defense and two incredible box to box players in Davids and Seedorf. Every attacking version of a back 3 had the wingbacks pushing forward a lot and therefore needed the wide centerbacks to help out defend in wide areas all the time, so of course you need an incredible strong central midfield to give protection to the defense. Van Gaal is doing the exact opposite at the moment.
If you look at the 80's where the 532 was a pretty common formation, especially in Serie A, you soon realise how important draws were and how few wins won you the league. The classic 532 time was the Platini/Maradona era, shut up shop in defense and let your superstars create something upfront, often decide games with a freekick. But back then, a win only gave 2 points and you saw Napoli winning the strongest league in the world by scoring 41 goals in 30 games, winning only 15 games. Back then not losing was equally important as winning. It's not anymore. It's still a good idea for an international tournament of course, maximise the impact of your individuals upfront and try to scrape through by not conceding. But that's totally different to a league campaign today. Juve's 352 worked in the league because their midfield shits on every team in Italy for example, no one would come up with the idea that they play 3 centerbacks to make up for deficiencies in midfield.
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Thanks for that. Confirms what I thought. 352 is a tedious, overly defensive aberration which should be consigned to history. I hope to feck we give up this experiment as soon as possible.
I like a 3 man defense though, Guardiola's plans for Bayern are really exciting for example, but they are nothing like what we see at United. I also don't believe that van Gaal's longterm plans are to play a defensive 532. It looks more like he struggles to find the right plan that leads to decent results now and a well working formation with attacking tactics longterm. I think his biggest problem is that most of the players in the squad really lack the tactical understanding he needs to pull off his tactics. It's what I praised so much about his work at Bayern, that he took the time to teach basics to all our players, technique and movement. It's what our current success is still built on. I just don't understand his steps, his decision to change too much at the beginning of his stint instead of playing something the squad is familiar while teaching them the basics he needs for his plans. He rushes towards something extreme with an unbalanced squad and players not suited to it. Maybe the results in pre-season lead him to believe the squad is further in their development than they actually are.
I think this is exactly it. Confidence has drained from players round about the time I expect he told players their future. Atmosphere in the squad is probably not as positive as it was on tour and that wont change till he moves the deadwood on.
Also, he's now realising Fletcher is getting found out in full pace competitive games.
Sounds more like 4231 to me. Did he say that in his match report? I can't see anything on twitter.
The formation has feck all to do with our defenders being incapable of passing the ball 10 yards.
@Balu
Everything you are saying is convincing, except that Jones as midfield destroyer would really solve the problem. He is the personification of a headless chicken; sure he would add toughness to the midfield and break up some attacks, but he would also be out of position frequently. I am pretty sure that he would get exposed frequently during 90minutes.
Also van Gaal doesnt play 532 at the moment. Its more like a 523 without offensive players that can provide widths. Van gaal always tries to stretch the field. Doing it with wingbacks allows you to use player who are fairly limited while still having an effect. If you are playing 433/451/424 your winger need to be able to make things happen or they are rendered useless.
Everything you are saying is convincing, except that Jones as midfield destroyer would really solve the problem. He is the personification of a headless chicken; sure he would add toughness to the midfield and break up some attacks, but he would also be out of position frequently. I am pretty sure that he would get exposed frequently during 90minutes.
Also van Gaal doesnt play 532 at the moment. Its more like a 523 without offensive players that can provide widths. Van gaal always tries to stretch the field. Doing it with wingbacks allows you to use player who are fairly limited while still having an effect. If you are playing 433/451/424 your winger need to be able to make things happen or they are rendered useless.
I would point out that perhaps the most exciting team I saw at the world cup, Chile, played 3-5-2. They were high tempo, high risk, relentlessly attacking and brilliant to watch all through their qualifying campaign. Like all these things, its how you work it.
Right now though my feeling is that our confidence is so shot that going with whatever formation makes them most comfortable makes sense, so I'd go with a back four.
I agree, but it still would give the defenders time. A lot in defense is about decision making and a headless chicken in midfield still delays attacks in comparison to no one at all even trying to do something. Ideally you would want someone else there, Carrick the obvious choice in the squad at the moment. I was just trying to make the point that with the same 3 players, it could give more stability to play 2 centerbacks and one DM instead of 3 centerbacks.
I think the basic mistakes we are seeing the defenders make shows how unsuited and how uncomfortable they are with this formation and system.
It's very easy to blame the system or formation, the formation is not the reason why our players can't make correct 5 yard passes everytime. Our problem is that we have been a poorly coached team for sometime now and our players don't understand basics like passing and movement. Last year people criticized Moyes and his 4-4-2 but the formation was clearly not the problem.
No, it shows that they lack the ability to pass a ball. Not just the defence, but our supposed midfield too. The whole club needed a reshuffle, look at other top clubs and the minimum requirement would be for their defenders to be comfortable on the ball instead of shitting themselves as soon as a striker comes within ten yards of them. It's not the system, it's been happening for a few years now.
And MK Dons has a better understanding of those basics?
Really?
They took the game to us, and our mentally fragile players couldn't cope. That's how far our players have fallen.