So the 3-5-2

van Gaal says that we are playing 3-5-2 because it suits our glut of attacking midfielders and strikers. We are really playing it because our senior wingers and midfielders are hopeless.

I don't think any system would work with our lack of talent at winger and central midfield.
 
Red Phoenix Rising said:
Sure, but you can't just go hoofing the ball out at the first sign of danger and shitting your drawers. Obviously in this system there is a heavy reliance on individual composure. I suppose that is one thing I loved about Vidic. Sometimes I would say 'ffs mate why are you kicking it out there hoof it up field' and other times I'd be saying 'good work mate, if in doubt get it out' and there was always a consistency to it. There is definitely way more pressure on our defenders than there has been in the past in this system.
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True and this is one area where I think LVG may have made a mistake in using Smalling as the central of the three CBs. I think Jones is far better suited for the central role (Which generally is the one who will carry the ball forward and play a bit more expansively).

Ultimately though I dont think simply changing from 3-5-2 to 4-4-2 (or whatever) is going to fix these sorts of mistakes - as far as LVG is concerned, I imagine that a change of system at this point may to him feel a bit like admitting defeat, which I cant see happening.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Made even harder when there's one less player ahead of them to pick out.
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Not really, Fergies side tended to split the center backs, push the full backs up and get one of the midfielders to drop back get the ball and make that first pass forward, the starting positions was that of a 3-5-2. We've put a hell of a lot of pressure on our central midfielders to make that first pass, we really have to move away from it, its hard hitting the ball through the oppositions midfield and if theres only one man on our side that can make that pass the opposition know exactly who to target. Our teamwork sucks, everywhere around the pitch the best we get is work in pairs, no traingles, no 3rd man running
 
Ash_G said:
I don't think that's true personally you only have to look at our defence/wingbacks that he's used to see. If they're not square pegs in to round holes than I don't know what is. Seems to be he's more about players adapting to the system rather than finding a system that works for the players (well outside of finding someway to play mata/rvp/rooney all in their favoured roles).
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Not sure regarding our wingbacks, the only real one you could asses as a square peg would be Young. Valencia has played wing and RB so you could say he should be your perfect wingback. Young was trialled during pre-season and his fitness was outstanding, probably our player of the tour, clearly you've a point regarding his defensive side especially after the Swansea disaster but prior to that he's been excellent since VG took over an a natural left wing.
He's certainly more about players adapting to his system but it's certainly not set in stone what that is, it seems more personnel based, the only things he's seemingly set on is having the lines of space covered on the pitch and having a diamond in the center.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
This is what I've been saying. I don't think its the system. It's just that the players are so under confident that they can't even seem to do simple things correctly.

No one seems to be willing to make a run or play a risky pass. It's excruciating.
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Of course, having absolute dogshit in central midfield compounds all the problems. If they're hiding from the ball or can't be trusted to receive the ball under pressure (a major theme tonight) it makes the central defenders even more hesitant and uncertain. That's without even getting into the defensive cover Anderson and Powell provide (i.e. none)
 
sullydnl said:
So how have other teams managed to be successful with that set up before? Hell, didn't Liverpool use it at times last season even?

Plus I just saw quotes from AdM in the twitter thread saying he expects to be used as a midfielder rather than a winger anyway...
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Barely any teams plays a diamond, Liverpool used it at times last season, but they didn't stick with it, it really exposes the fullbacks
 
Walrus said:
True and this is one area where I think LVG may have made a mistake in using Smalling as the central of the three CBs. I think Jones is far better suited for the central role (Which generally is the one who will carry the ball forward and play a bit more expansively).

Ultimately though I dont think simply changing from 3-5-2 to 4-4-2 (or whatever) is going to fix these sorts of mistakes - as far as LVG is concerned, I imagine that a change of system at this point may to him feel a bit like admitting defeat, which I cant see happening.
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The way they move and the way they adapt is imo itself the system. We spread way to wide when we have the ball and the three at the back are often playing like 1CB and two fullbacks and they pass it around and it becomes almost a box shape of passing. Square square, up the line. Then when we turn it over there is so much space everywhere for the opposition to run into a couple of quick passes and players already have to make up 5/10 yards to their nearest man and/or the ball carrier. If the opposition is sharp enough then they will bypass those first initial moves and create good chances with quick passing.

Also one thing I noticed from this is that our pressing is very disjointed. A pass 'ooo get over there close him down' a pass 'oo okay you close him down' a pass 'oo okay close him down' there is never a sense of 'pushing up because he's going to pass to this guy it's literally his only pass... wait for it.. wait for it.. NABBED!' it's as though we're always pressing two or three steps too late after a pass.

I am not sure if this has anything to do with the system and/or even makes sense in my layman's terms but we're never going to win the ball regularly if we're always looking at the player receiving the pass then reacting to it. Almost like switch player on the playstation.
 
Mozza said:
Barely any teams plays a diamond, Liverpool used it at times last season, but they didn't stick with it, it really exposes the fullbacks
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Is it really all that different from a 3-5-2 though? Surely it's just a case of a DM being able to step back into defence rather than a CB stepping up? Unless I'm missing some tactical intricacies...
 
Why has the team suddenly stopped creating lots of chances? is it the quality of the supplying players? the formation? other teams tactics in closing down?
 
Mark Ogden says he expects Di Maria, Rvp, and Janujaz as the front three, with Rooney in behind, which I guess would mean 4-3-3.

Mata on the bench I guess then if right.
 
sullydnl said:
Is it really all that different from a 3-5-2 though? Surely it's just a case of a DM being able to step back into defence rather than a CB stepping up? Unless I'm missing some tactical intricacies...
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I'm not sure it the same, the 352 offers the wingbacks the protection of a back 3 when we are in possesion so they should be both be pushing forward. A center back may step out but that doesn't make him a permenent fixture in the midfield when we are in posssesion
 
I have to say I like my back 4, I know it is easy to panic when adjusting to a new formation but I just think a back 4 would suit us better. Holland were good in the WC, it took them a couple of years to get used to the 3-5-2 for the WC and it was effective, but you have to say it smacked a bit of conservatism, they had a limited squad, they were more hard to beat than exciting, I would rather excting, it's Manchester United, you score 2, we will score 4, but you have to have faith in the manager's thinking, he has produced results consistently wherever he has been. You need to be conservative in certain games, even SAF was to get a result, but not home to Swansea for example, think we should be letting loose with a 4-3-3, but again you need to leave LVG at it, I am sure he has his long term thinking cap on.
 
This formation doesn't work if the other team breaks and is flying at the back three. All it takes is one of the CB's to come across and the rest are fecked. Holland played the opposite and instead were the ones countering so you didn't see that side much.
 
We kept playing the ball to defenders under pressure, they had nowhere to go, coughed it up with a horrific pass or touch and then MK Dons looked like a sharper Real Madrid in countering.

I do see the upside for this formation as a counter-ing option in big games, but it's not helping the massive problems we have had for years with our inability to play pass and move football.
 
I don't doubt that 3-5-2 could work, but it might take us 6 months to adapt to this system. It'll be too late then.

Without wanting to sound like a dickhead (but I'm going to anyway), football has become an extremely short-term game, and we're approaching panic stations here. If we lose against Burnley, of which there is a strong possibility, we'll be in all sorts of trouble. We need to do what we used to do with SAF after a spanking and revert to safety - 4-4-2 or 4-3-3, focus on solid defending and get a couple of 1-0s to get us back on track. The flair and creativity can come later.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
Mark Ogden says he expects Di Maria, Rvp, and Janujaz as the front three, with Rooney in behind, which I guess would mean 4-3-3.

Mata on the bench I guess then if right.
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Mata scores goals as a no.10 and is too instrumental to leave out.

Van Gaal has mentioned Di Maria as a midfielder first and as a winger also. I expect Di Maria to be part of the midfield 3, as Di Maria expects to be himself.
 
I was impressed with us tonight actually.

Louis van Gaal's system requires passing, when a player presses you need to pass to another player, Louis van Gaal loves two on ones because if one of our players can pass through those two then now we have somewhere a spare man on the pitch.

His system is so effective when it clicks because he has that spare man and with another pass through a 2 v 1 he now has two spare men.

On the flip side, his system is ineffective when it does not click because the passes will be intercepted in dangerous areas.

The players are practicing and it will take time before they all develop expertise in timing those passes. I was impressed today because the players tried to actually pass, they did what they were told. Yes they messed some of those passes up and the opposition scored but there will come a time in the near future when they don't mistime so many passes.

For me I would sooner take this 4-0 loss with the defenders trying to actually pass then win 1-0 with long balls being hoofed up and them not doing what they were told.

Louis said in his interview after the game Angel di Maria offers him the option to switch formation so this is a possibility. But it matters not, errors will be made whatever the system, our players are still developing expertise in a few skills to make this system work.
 
van Gaal has our youth sides playing with 3-5-2, doesn't he? I doubt we'll see a change in formation anytime soon.
 
.Rossi said:
It won't change....

But you'll see, over time, an improvement....Especially when Rafael and Shaw come back. Rafael can play as a wing back
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Yep, it can't be shite forever...

Once we see gradual and clear improvement, we'll be okay. It's how many felt last season with Moyes also, unfortunately he failed to implement any identity upon the team. van Gaal believes in the philosophy, I think the players at least want to as well.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
van Gaal has our youth sides playing with 3-5-2, doesn't he? I doubt we'll see a change in formation anytime soon.
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No use using a different system for the youth team. Players at any level of the club must be able to make an easy enough transition into the first team if they're called upon. It's the life of a pro footballer, you have to learn to adapt to formation and tactic changes at a moment's notice.
 
iBoss said:
This formation doesn't work if the other team breaks and is flying at the back three. All it takes is one of the CB's to come across and the rest are fecked. Holland played the opposite and instead were the ones countering so you didn't see that side much.
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Spot on. A back 3 is very very vulnerable to counter-attacks and all it takes is a diagonal run from a striker or #10 to leave a gaping hole between the CB's. I've actually heard a manager call it... "Attack is your only defense"
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Yep, it can't be shite forever...

Once we see gradual and clear improvement, we'll be okay. It's how many felt last season with Moyes also, unfortunately he failed to implement any identity upon the team. van Gaal believes in the philosophy, I think the players at least want to as well.
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The problem there is that most fans aren't as patient these days. After 10 to 15 games and Utd aren't anywhere close to the top 3 or 4 then the gradual improvement will turn to "We need the results NOW". Unfortunately, we don't live in the era where managers are given enough time by fans to implement what they actually want in their team. It hurts club stability and eventually you'd be throwing money at the problem.
 
Il Prete Rosso said:
The problem there is that most fans aren't as patient these days. After 10 to 15 games and Utd aren't anywhere close to the top 3 or 4 then the gradual improvement will turn to "We need the results NOW". Unfortunately, we don't live in the era where managers are given enough time by fans to implement what they actually want in their team. It hurts club stability and eventually you'd be throwing money at the problem.
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You're probably right, yeah. I'm sure van Gaal will be afforded time here to prove his worth, but there is definitely a possibility it could go tits up again. Fans will settle for top four this season, which is definitely achievable, especially with the recent addition of di Maria.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
You're probably right, yeah. I'm sure van Gaal will be afforded time here to prove his worth, but there is definitely a possibility it could go tits up again. Fans will settle for top four this season, which is definitely achievable, especially with the recent addition of di Maria.
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I don't think we should concentrate on where we're going to finish the season after two league games and a cup game. We need to make the small steps Van Gaal talked about after the Swansea game. You're right to say we'll see improvements and I share the opinion that the problem is not with the system but with our personnel currently.

Expect us to stick with 3.5.2 for now.

................De Gea
....Jones.....Evans.....Rojo
Valencia.......................Shaw
.........Herrera....Di Maria
.................Mata
............RVP....Rooney
 
I can see 3 at the back working for us with wingbacks, in fact given the lack of a really standout central defender and a standout defensive mid, which I think is nesc to play a 4 man defense, I think it will make us defensively more solid and harder to beat like Holland at the worldcup. I think with Jones, Smalling, Blackett, Rojo, Shaw, Rafael we surely have the foundations to make it work.

What I can't see working for us is 2 strikers upfront with a number 10 behind them. I think it just makes everything to narrow and the biggest threat comes from counterattcking, which simply won't be very effective without pace upfront. Rooney, RVP and Mata is just an attacking lign up that lacks pace. In fact even for Holland I think it wasn't working and they had Robben there to provide them with pace, I always found they were struggling offensively in that system and things only started happening for them when Robben was allowed to play from the wing and Depay or Lens was brought in to play on the other flank.

That is why I wouldlike to see us move to a 3-4-3

It will mean putting one of RVP or Rooney on the bench, or playing Rooney out of position on the wing which isn't his best position at all. It also means no real number 10 role in the system so Mata will have to play more on the wing and Kagawa will probably become useless for us. But it would work brilliant for Di Maria, Januzaj and also Lingard I think.


------------DDG----------------
---Smalling--Jones---Rojo--------
Rafael--Herrera--Carrick---Shaw
-----Mata--------Di Maria-------
------------RVP-----------------

----------Lindegaard-------------
----Keane--Evans---Blackett---
Valencia---Fletcher--Fellaini---Young
-------Januzaj-----Lingard---------
-------------Rooney-----------

Res: Johnstone, Welbeck

Hernandez, Kagawa, Anderson and Cleverley can leave for me, James and Zaha loaned out

Preferably bring in another player for the midfield as we are very weak in our option there with carrick out injurred for 3 months and another centreback wouldn't be a bad idea aswell.
 
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FreakyJim said:
Why? I thought his "philosophy" was 4-3-3 and variations of that. Why would he set the whole club up to play this 3-5-2 nonsense?
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I doubt you were complaining this time last month when we were beating everyone with this formation. Im sure LVG will be the first one to switch formations if things continue down this path. With Di Maria in, he might have training sessions practicing 4-3-3 and he might slowly implement it. Right now we don't have good enough full backs or the good understanding between two centre backs to play 4 defenders at the back.

In my opinion he was a genius when he switched to 3-5-2 for the WC. No one expected it. If he had played with 2 central defenders their team would have picked apart and might have struggled to reach the next stage. Vlaar teamed with either one of De Vrij or Indi would have been all over the place at the back. When they got beat comprehensively by France in March I thought this team was going to struggle to get out of the group.
 
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NoArroJusBeta said:
I can see 3 at the back working for us with wingbacks, in fact given the lack of a really standout central defender and a standout defensive mid, which I think is nesc to play a 4 man defense, I think it will make us defensively more solid and harder to beat like Holland at the worldcup. I think with Jones, Smalling, Blackett, Rojo, Shaw, Rafael we surely have the foundations to make it work.

What I can't see working for us is 2 strikers upfront with a number 10 behind them. I think it just makes everything to narrow and the biggest threat comes from counterattcking, which simply won't be very effective without pace upfront. Rooney, RVP and Mata is just an attacking lign up that lacks pace. In fact even for Holland I think it wasn't working and they had Robben there to provide them with pace, I always found they were struggling offensively in that system and things only started happening for them when Robben was allowed to play from the wing and Depay or Lens was brought in to play on the other flank.

That is why I wouldlike to see us move to a 3-4-3

It will mean putting one of RVP or Rooney on the bench, or playing Rooney out of position on the wing which isn't his best position at all. It also means no real number 10 role in the system so Mata will have to play more on the wing and Kagawa will probably become useless for us. But it would work brilliant for Di Maria, Januzaj and also Lingard I think.
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Our wingbacks need to get better for the current system to work. It doesn't help when your best wingbacks are both injured (Valencia only just returned from injury) and have to build up their fitness again. We really need plenty of cover there. Blind is a proper left-sided defender who would be a round peg in a round hole for us.
 
Some of you have lost faith in 3-5-2 after just three games. I can understand the frustration, but trust the manager and the system, for now...
 
I was all excited after pre-season and felt this was the way to go, but i'm having mixed feelings now, which is understandable as we've not had the best of starts to the season, but Van Gaal did say it will take time and i'm willing to be patient and trust in what he said.
 
The 3.5.2 is not a bad system at all, it's just bad when you have no runners in midfield and your best wingbacks are injured. Also, if the players don't have the quality to pass long and short with a very high completion rate, then it's a big problem. 3.5.2 demands a certain level of technical proficiency and tactical awareness. Players have to be educated in how to play a possession-based game and it's no wonder we see some of the catastrophic errors we are at the moment when sides press to close down our options and we have a lot of players who have been used to playing 4.4.2 (and variations of it) their entire careers.
 
This system wont work unless you have good wing backs giving you width. If not then the way the team is way too narrow and even the lowest division can be comfortable guarding you. You also need a bit more pace with the passing. Switching from side to side if things don't work on one end is important. Not only are you tiring your opponents by making them run from side to side but if you switch it quick enough, you might have an open man either to counter or put in a free cross. We are just so static with our passing and half the time when players, especially defenders, are on the ball they hold up their arms asking "Alright which one of you wankers wants it because I don't want it".
 
RDCR07 said:
This system wont work unless you have good wing backs giving you width. If not then the way the team is way too narrow and even the lowest division can be comfortable guarding you. You also need a bit more pace with the passing. Switching from side to side if things don't work on one end is important. Not only are you tiring your opponents by making them run from side to side but if you switch it quick enough, you might have an open man either to counter or put in a free cross. We are just so static with our passing and half the time when players, especially defenders, are on the ball they hold up their arms asking "Alright which one of you wankers wants it because I don't want it".
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Rojo, Shaw and di Maria can bring some of this to the table. All three are certain to start when fit.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Rojo, Shaw and di Maria can bring some of this to the table. All three are certain to start when fit.
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Its going to be one of Rojo/Shaw as wing back. At this rate Di Maria is going to slot in in central midfield. Hopefully he can provide some width on which ever side he is playing and someone can cover for him until he gets back by dropping deep from attack.
 
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