So the 3-5-2

Our defenders get lost with the ball at their feet, the minimum requirement you need for any possession based system is defenders who are comfortable with the ball and we don't have that.
 
It's a joke, and the fact that after three games LvG still hasn't realised that is worrying indeed.
 
On paper we should have 5 people defending, in reality the wing-backs are stuck in between wingers and fullbacks in purgatory.

It means we have three defenders and no wingers. Too often you see a CB go wide to tackle with the Wingbacks miles away. That leaves only one person in the middle. No wonder there are so many gaps in the middle. It doesn't help that the defenders are just jogging back after the umpteenth time they have been turned.

This has to stop now. Hopefully with Di Maria we will play 433/4231 from now on.
 
We're only 3 games and and I already hate this tactic, it doesn't suit us one bit.
 
He thinks this is the ideal formation for us and its probably the farthest from it.
 
There is no combination play at all in this. I will get depressed if we stay at the 3-4-1-2 with Di Maria in the side.
 
I don't mind, 433 or 442 and one of it's variants. Just as long as we go back to a regular back 4.
 
If confidence is an issue within the playing squad, and it is, then playing this system does not help. I dont think the level of patience exists for this 3 month adjustment period that LvG talks about. Hopefully with Di Maria in we will change to 433
 
Yorkeontop said:
Ideal for now or forever? Surely its a temporary thing until he sorts the squad out.
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It forces us to play only 2 midfielders when we need more bodies there. It forces us to play wing backs which we are severely lacking in right now. It forces us to play 3 centre halves, all who are charlatans.
 
Rykker_4united said:
It forces us to play only 2 midfielders when we need more bodies there. It forces us to play wing backs which we are severely lacking in right now. It forces us to play 3 centre halves, all who are charlatans.
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I keep hearing his prefered formation is 433 and he's on playing 352 because of our squad.
 
3-5-2 is a really clever system, and LvG has used it to good effect in the past, but it relies so heavily on quality players. We're making shocking decisions on the pitch at the moment, and some of the errors in defence are incredible - they would be costly in any system.

LvG seems to think that good players should be able to play anywhere on the pitch and do a decent job. He's quickly learning that many of our players aren't good enough to do what he wants.

We desperately need one or two utility players who can play in any position. An O'Shea or a Blind could be really useful in this system.
 
HabeasC said:
On paper we should have 5 people defending, in reality the wing-backs are stuck in between wingers and fullbacks in purgatory.

It means we have three defenders and no wingers. Too often you see a CB go wide to tackle with the Wingbacks miles away. That leaves only one person in the middle. No wonder there are so many gaps in the middle. It doesn't help that the defenders are just jogging back after the umpteenth time they have been turned.

This has to stop now. Hopefully with Di Maria we will play 433/4231 from now on.
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This is why I asked a few pages back - I don't get how this formation works with these players. Those two wingbacks literally have to do the bulk of the defending and also have to be up supporting the attack. It leaves the back three vulnerable if these players aren't good enough to do that and I don't understand why he is keeping up with it. I think all three goals have come from a bad pass from one of the back three or wingbacks where there is way to much space and are given a full half against the defence to counter.

I just don't get it, if I am honest.
 
4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.

Van Gaal believes it helps shore up a weak defence, and whilst our defence isn't the best, there are worse defences in the Premier League who don't resort to it. Surely we don't need it against the fecking MK Dons?! Ironically, it makes the defence weaker, because nobody knows what they are doing.

When we have the ball, it feels like we are playing with 10 men, as the man in possession nearly always has one less man infront of him to pass to than he would have if we played 4 at the back with attacking full backs. We constantly look at a disadvantage with every attack.

Wing play is non existent. Wingers and full backs are at their most effective when there is an overlap. No overlap. No wing play. Just passes backwards. Bad passes backwards.

The back 3 is a mess. Kids like Keane and Virmijl are still learning how to play football, and are being thrown into a completely foreign system. To be fair, Blackett has taken to it fairly well, but it's still unrealistic to expect youngsters to adapt to it on a night like this, in a game where the opposition were going to play the game of their life, and be on United from the off. Just about all of our centre backs will have played their entire lives in a back 4 up until now. I just don't see it working. I really hope Di Maria is the missing piece which drives Van Gaal towards 4-3-3.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.

Van Gaal believes it helps shore up a weak defence, and whilst our defence isn't the best, there are worse defences in the Premier League who don't resort to it. Surely we don't need it against the fecking MK Dons?! Ironically, it makes the defence weaker, because nobody knows what they are doing.

When we have the ball, it feels like we are playing with 10 men, as the man in possession nearly always has one less man infront of him to pass to than he would have if we played 4 at the back with attacking full backs. We constantly look at a disadvantage with every attack.

Wing play is non existent. Wingers and full backs are at their most effective when there is an overlap. No overlap. No wing play. Just passes backwards. Bad passes backwards.

The back 3 is a mess. Kids like Keane and Virmijl are still learning how to play football, and are being thrown into a completely foreign system. To be fair, Blackett has taken to it fairly well, but it's still unrealistic to expect youngsters to adapt to it on a night like this, in a game where the opposition were going to play the game of their life, and be on United from the off. Just about all of our centre backs will have played their entire lives in a back 4 up until now. I just don't see it working. I really hope Di Maria is the missing piece which drives Van Gaal towards 4-3-3.
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To be honest though mate, we saw dozens of performances last season that fitted your description of how badly we're playing, all with a back 4.

It might well be true that given our low confidence we should play it safe and stick with what we know. But I dont believe a back four is a panacea and if we started playing 4-3-3 or whatever I suspect we'd see the same problems played out.
 
bishblaize said:
To be honest though mate, we saw dozens of performances last season that fitted your description of how badly we're playing, all with a back 4.

It might well be true that given our low confidence we should play it safe and stick with what we know. But I dont believe a back four is a panacea and if we started playing 4-3-3 or whatever I suspect we'd see the same problems played out.
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Maybe but I don't think it would be quite so bad. Firstly I think this would be more certainty defensively and I think offensively we might do better with overlapping fullbacks. At the moment our poor passing from defence/midfield is being made even worse because with the wingbacks we can't even stretch the game now because they either don't suit playing in 1v1 situations or are so knackered, either way they can't create space for a cross and most the time play the ball infield.
 
So far in my opinion this formation will need to take time. The back 3 or 5 need time to settle in. Play 3 in the back will just make it harder to communicate, the other two centre backs are stretched out too often. The wing backs need to be really quality for delivering service to attackers.
 
This formation is easy to pick apart because you can push up and suffocate the back three with literally no risk on the counter, almost all the goals we ceonceded were from a poor pass enduced by the pressing. I hope it's the last we see of this damned formation because by the time our players learn it the season would have passed us by.
 
Never supported this rubbish idea. Weakens us at the back and weakens us at the front.

We need wide men and one of Rooney / Mata on the bench.
 
I dunno yet if the 3-5-2 is the issue. Do we really believe it'd have been much better tonight with a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2? I doubt it.

van Gaal probably won't knee-jerk react and change from the 3-5-2, suppose we have to be patient.
 
If we'd been 'unlucky', creating but wasting chances and giving away few chances then regardless of the results I would be fine. However it's been dire. Leaking chances like crazy and creating feck all.
 
People keep talking about the system, but every one of their goals was because of a misplaced simple pass around our box. You can play with 12 men, if you can't do simple things like passing you will always lose.
 
In relation to this system, I was listening to Jonathan Wilson earlier on the Off the Ball podcast (well worth listening to). He said that Louis Van Gaal only took up this system when Strootman got injured playing for Holland and he felt he had to change his system as a result.

When did Strootman get injured? March?

How can this be called a philosophy if Van Gaal has only been playing it for a few months? About 10 games?

I don't mind the idea of the system. But we haven't got the players to play that system and personally I'd find it hard to believe in a philosophy that Van Gaal only made up a few months ago.
 
ottosec said:
People keep talking about the system, but every one of their goals was because of a misplaced simple pass around our box. You can play with 12 men, if you can't do simple things like passing you will always lose.
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Playing out with the ball and having confidence to is essential in the system also. That is what the players were trying to do when they lost the ball. They were individual mistakes but maybe they happened because of what the players are expected to do now.
 
When Van Gaal was brought here, part of the reason everyone was excited was because he would have the "bollocks" to drop one of RVP/Rooney and go one upfront.

This would improve our attack as it did when Fergie made this decision long a go. The 3-5-2 and trying to shoe horn in our best players seems like a bit of a cop out.

I'm not convinced that the growing pains of the system will match outweigh the its eventual results when we can immediately switch ti a 4-3-3 which the players are more suited to.
 
3 of the 4 goals were because of defensive erros. This was down to the plays not fitting the system, simple as that.
 
DeMono said:
3 of the 4 goals were because of defensive erros. This was down to the plays not fitting the system, simple as that.
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Honestly - errors of the "defender passes straight to opposition player" variety are not down to the system, but it does seem to be a common sympton in our play at the moment.
 
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