So the 3-5-2

[Escobar]

We need to drop this 5 at the back shite and play a good attacking/winning formation. For me, midfield is the most important area. They need to provide protection for the defenders and also provide support to the attackers. I don't care which striker gets dropped, but i want to see a 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2. We need an extra body in midfield, not in defense. Plus going back to a traditional back 4 would help the defenders settle down, right now they sometimes look clueless.

I agree. The problem with 3-5-2 is rather that you need defenders as wingbacks and not attackers because they will leave way too much space at the back. As you mentioned, at this point in time I dont care who get's benched as long as the team starts to play well and we start winning games.

 

[JackXX]

I think 4-3-3 or 4-4-1-1 should be our system now we have Di Maria.

Rafael----Jones----Rojo----Shaw
Januzaj--Herrera--????--Di Maria
-------------Rooney---------------
---------------RVP-----------------

Rafael----Jones----Rojo----Shaw
----Herrera---------????----------
---------------Mata----------------
Januzaj---------------------Di Maria
---------------RVP-------------------

Obviously there are players that can be interchanged etc and we are still in need of a respectable CM but on paper it looks good.

 

[ThanksBoss26]

In this formation the wingbacks need to provide some width. Shaw and Rafael should be far better than Valencia and Young, who just cut back inside.

Once yesterday they got to the by-line between them and we scored from it.

 

[Jev]

Feasibly I suppose, but I think with Herrara out for a few weeks it's more likely we'd see Di Maria in CM than CF if we did stick with 352 (because the latter would mean dropping Rooney or Van Persie and leaving Cleverley on the pitch)

Personally I'd prefer a diamond:

Rooney - Van Persie
Mata
Herrara ------- Di Maria
Carrick
Shaw - Rojo - Smalling - Rafael
DDG​

Yeah, just switch Herrera and Di Maria. What was so effective about Di Maria's role last season was that he was essentially a half-winger. He started in midfield and that was his defensive basic position but he frequently make some of his dangerous raids down the left side, and often there was even more room for him because the defence also had to look out for the full-back and the winger cutting inside. That would also give us some of the width that this formation lacks.

Would still prefer a more old-fashioned one, though:

----------- DDG

Rafa - Jones - Rojo - Shaw

-----Herrera - New guy

- Januzaj - Mata - Di Maria

-------- Rooney/RvP

 

[crossy1686]

In this formation the wingbacks need to provide some width. Shaw and Rafael should be far better than Valencia and Young, who just cut back inside.

Once yesterday they got to the by-line between them and we scored from it.

I think things will change when we get our first choice wing backs back, or at least I hope so.

 

[saivet]

Not convinced on the 352 at all!!



I prefer this against weak teams:
----------Dave-------
Rafa---CB---CB---Shaw
---Herrera---CM------
Januzaj--Mata--Di Maria-
--------RVP/Rooney---

Either a new CM or Carrick next to Herrera. Not too fussed about the CB pairing and with Rooney/RVP battling it out for the strikers spot.

For big games:

----------Dave-------
Rafa---CB---CB---Shaw
--------Carrick------
----Herrera----CM-----
-Welbeck--------Di Maria
-------RVP/Rooney-----

Against the big team play this sort of midfield 3, giving Hererra the most freedom to move forward. Once again, either RVP or Rooney up top. I also think Valencia or Januzaj may be better options than Welbeck on some occasions.

 

[Bojan11]

It's not the formation.

How can we judge when we got Valencia, Young, Cleverley and Fletcher playing. No formation will work with that bunch of shite.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Just gonna go on record and say I hate this poxy formation. One swash-buckling peformance against Spain shouldn't conceal the fact that Holland were, in general, really dull to watch. A trend that's continued in every game United have played apart from the ridiculously one-sided game in LA.

Obviously, the Dutch only reverted to 433 when Strootman got a long-term injury. I really hope this is only a temporary solution to our own issues in midfield and Van Gaal gets on board whoever he needs to revert back to a more attacking formation. If not, it's gonna be another season enduring crap football from Manchester United. Which is not something I want to put myself through.

 

[manusteve]

The 3-5-2 should be dispensed with as soon as possible. If one of the reasons is to accommodate Rooney, RvP and Mata all in the same team, then I think it is misguided. I'd prefer a back four: Rafael, Jones, Rojo, Shaw. The space that Smalling had yesterday in the midfield area was mental, with Cleverley and Fletcher nowhere to be seen.

 

[Sultan]

Hopefully with the signing of Di Maria I look forward to some proper exciting wing play, and back to playing 4-4-2, 4-3-3 or 4-5-1. I'm hoping Welbeck is not sold - Di Maria, and Welbeck could be a devastating force with their energy and pace. The team which played last season and the 2 games this is too slow, lacks movement, energy and pace.

 

[Sultan]

The 3-5-2 should be dispensed with as soon as possible. If one of the reasons is to accommodate Rooney, RvP and Mata all in the same team, then I think it is misguided. I'd prefer a back four: Rafael, Jones, Rojo, Shaw. The space that Smalling had yesterday in the midfield area was mental, with Cleverley and Fletcher nowhere to be seen.

Absolutely!

The outcome would have been different had we had a decent midfielder who could pass instead of Smalling in that space who is our worst player on the ball.

Obviously, the Dutch only reverted to 433 when Strootman got a long-term injury. I really hope this is only a temporary solution to our own issues in midfield and Van Gaal gets on board whoever he needs to revert back to a more attacking formation. If not, it's gonna be another season enduring crap football from Manchester United. Which is not something I want to put myself through.

I'm with Pogue. I want to be entertained and be on the edge of my seat at games.

 

[Theon]

You can get entertaining 3-5-2's. The way the system is played is more relevant than the formation itself - things like how high you press, the tempo of the passing, how quickly you counter and whether you have players capable of dribbling or offering pace.

Chile were the most entertaining side at the World Cup because they did all those things and they played a 3-5-2. That being said the team currently does not look comfortable in this system. I thought Jones and Blackett did okay but the defence in general was nervous on the ball, which is a problem considering they see so much of it. The performances of Cleverley and Fletcher however were the biggest issue and I do not think that was caused by the system.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

We need to ditch this system ASAP, we need to ensure we adopt a system which utilize our best players, but i feel in order to get the best out of rvp/rooney, mata and Di maria, i think we should play 4-3-3, with Rooney/rvp on top, i feel one has to be sacrificed to play great attacking football. Rooney/rvp on top with Di Maria and Adnan on the wings will give us flair and wing play and it would also mean no valencia and young rotting up the place, with Mata, Herrera and Carrick/Vidal behind them, obviously Mata will be slightly ahead of those two CM's. it seems a very balanced lineup and we are only Carrick/Vidal away from this formation.

While at the back Rafael and Shaw will act as fullbacks and we will have Rojo,Evans,Smalling,Jones and two youngsters which will be enough for two spots. I believe if we try to shoehorn Mata,Rooney and RVP in the same lineup it will mean Adnan will have to be the obvious exclusion which will mean all of our wingplay will be from Di Maria's flank, and teams might double team him up to reduce his influence with both of them able to beat the player we will have enough upfront to torment any side, And funnily enough Mata's best spell of the season was when RVP was out.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

One more thing that is often forgotten by people this formation means we play 3 CB's and with Valencia and young offering nothing as Fullbacks it means we have five players who do nothing offensively although this problem will be solved with Shaw and Rafael, it would also mean we play with one less of an attacking player into the mix, i actually think even welbeck would be great as part of the front three in 4-3-3, and i don't want him sold or out on loan, it would mean more playing time for him and Adnan so that's a huge positive for me, i really believe they will be top players, Welbeck is not rated by many people here but i love him, he's technically perfect never gives the ball away, i think LvG will turn him into a fantastic player with end product cause that's all what he lacks.

 

[LR7]

For all of the people claiming we need to drop the formation, how would playing 4 at the back work with Young and Valencia in the fullback spots? They're attackers who will be more at risk with more defending to do in a 4 at the back formation. Maybe when he has Rafael, Shaw and Rojo available we will have more flexibility.

Also the system isn't the reason we aren't playing well or winning. We will be poor in any system with these players. People will strart to see a massive difference in quality when our unavailable players start coming back. Rafael and Shaw in the fullback/wingback spots will add more pace, adventure and creativity from wide areas than what Young and Valencia offer. Carrick and Herrera in midfield will be a massive upgrade on Fletcher and Cleverley. Evans and Rojo at the back will add more composure on the ball (and it's needed because our CBs see an awful lot of the ball) and they bring the ball out of defence better which is will be less risky with Carrick there. Just be patient and things willimprove even if we stick to this formation.

 

[Red Phoenix Rising]

Can someone explain to me in this formation how the wingbacks are actually supposed to function? For instance - we obviously have two reformed wingers playing in that role and it completely looks that way.
The way it looks like it should be happening is when the 3-2 at the back have the ball they come back and support and when the ball is cycled through to the front 2-3 they are up in support.

They just don't look right. Is it the players? The actual system itself? The way the system functions off those players? When they both penetrate outside to in we actually look dangerous.. That seems to be the entire point. They penetrate from the wing inside and the players split and shift in front and behind them to offer support. I just personally don't understand why Van Gaal is playing this way with these types of players. It just doesn't look or fit right and I am having a hard time trying to comprehend it to be honest.

In theory, yeah I get it but this group is just not the right fit for me.

 

[daniel9988]

Rooney------Van Persie

---------Mata----------

Di Maria-----Herrera

-------New DM-------

------ Pile of Shit -----
--------DDG---------

I think I can live with this until the next transfer window

 

[Decotron]

Anyone else think Welbeck plus one is the only way to go for us in a 3-5-2? The big two simply don't work together. it envariaby ends up with Rooney flapping around in midfield. When paired with Welbeck he tends to stay up top more and we look a far better as a unit.

 

[LR7]

Anyone else think Welbeck plus one is the only way to go for us in a 3-5-2? The big two simply don't work together. it envariaby ends up with Rooney flapping around in midfield. When paired with Welbeck he tends to stay up top more and we look a far better as a unit.

I said in Welbeck's thread that the team simply looks better with him in it. He makes runs that stretches the oppositions defence and opens up space for our other attackers.

 

[Rozay]

Said all summer that it is a terrible formation, or at the very least, we don't have the personnel to do it properly.

I never thought I'd be wanting Giggs to exert his influence over LVG so soon.

 

[CLARiiON]

Can someone tell me what is be your 'standard' formation considering no injury/suspension. I am bit confused as to why United bought Mata. Is it just that a good player was available and you just bought him with no proper plan in mind? Defence still looks inexperienced and shaky at times.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Can someone explain to me in this formation how the wingbacks are actually supposed to function? For instance - we obviously have two reformed wingers playing in that role and it completely looks that way.
The way it looks like it should be happening is when the 3-2 at the back have the ball they come back and support and when the ball is cycled through to the front 2-3 they are up in support.

They just don't look right. Is it the players? The actual system itself? The way the system functions off those players? When they both penetrate outside to in we actually look dangerous.. That seems to be the entire point. They penetrate from the wing inside and the players split and shift in front and behind them to offer support. I just personally don't understand why Van Gaal is playing this way with these types of players. It just doesn't look or fit right and I am having a hard time trying to comprehend it to be honest.

In theory, yeah I get it but this group is just not the right fit for me.

The two wing backs should ensure width in the game and their areas of functioning are in the 10-mete corridors between the sidelines and the playing area. During the build up one of them is often instructed to move down close to the defensive third of the pitch to make himself available for a switch pass on the other side. A standard build up begins with an outer CB who tries to push the build up forward to the half way line. If he is challenged, the ball is played back and then swiftly to the other side, where a free space has been created for the wing back. Right now, we can't even do that at the necessary speed.

Their main attacking role is seeking costantly to exploit the corridor area in order to force the opposition to shift their defensive organization to one side. In the breakthrough phase their role is coming to the goal line and attempting a cross/pass in the box. We scored a goal from that movement yesterday.

The problem is that we couldn't do it more often because there was little support for the wing backs. In the 3-5-2 formation it is one of the CMs or one of the strikers who must move out wide, provide support to the wing backs and create, via overlap or underlap, breakthrough opportunities. From our current CMs only Herrera can do that (and Di Maria, if used there). Cleverley and Fletcher can't and it's no surprise that when Adnan was brought in, he tried to operate like that on the left side. As a result Young could move in the attacking third and he found space for some good crosses, but his delivery was awful.

When defending, the wing backs cover the first attackers into their respective areas. Once the attackers are within reasonable striking distance of the goal, the wing backs usually start playing man-to-man.

 

[Red Phoenix Rising]

The two wing backs should ensure width in the game and their areas of functioning are in the 10-mete corridors between the sidelines and the playing area. During the build up one of them is often instructed to move down close to the defensive third of the pitch to make himself available for a switch pass on the other side. A standard build up begins with an outer CB who tries to push the build up forward to the half way line. If he is challenged, the ball is played back and then swiftly to the other side, where a free space has been created for the wing back. Right now, we can't even do that at the necessary speed.

Thanks for that, in theory I know what they are to provide but I just don't get what they are doing in this system at United. There is just not enough fitness in these players that they are literally able to be back defending wide and at the same time able to break free on the flanks. I'd also argue in any system that I don't believe this to be the case.

Young and Valencia in particular are often way to deep and not up getting a penetrative pass played out to them and when they are defending they are usually not joining the attack quick enough on the counter. I don't think I could name a footballer today that has the athleticism, engine and defensive/attacking ability to play that role.. If I am being brutally honest.

 

[JON.B]

Said all summer that it is a terrible formation, or at the very least, we don't have the personnel to do it properly.

I never thought I'd be wanting Giggs to exert his influence over LVG so soon.

The manger would of been better off using a formation or system that suited the current players who are available, rather then playing those available out of position because are preferred options to make the system work are out through injury.

Young and Valencia simply don't give you the right balance between defence and attack to make the system work, we don't create enough going forward and instead leave ourselves more exposed at the back.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Thanks for that, in theory I know what they are to provide but I just don't get what they are doing in this system at United. There is just not enough fitness in these players that they are literally able to be back defending wide and at the same time able to break free on the flanks. I'd also argue in any system that I don't believe this to be the case.

Young and Valencia in particular are often way to deep and not up getting a penetrative pass played out to them and when they are defending they are usually not joining the attack quick enough on the counter. I don't think I could name a footballer today that has the athleticism, engine and defensive/attacking ability to play that role.. If I am being brutally honest.

Well, most FBs nowadays have to go up and down the whole pitch, even in formations with 4 at the back. Everton are a very good example of that. Martinez depends highly on the support both his FBs provide in the attacking third. Barcelona play with 2 very attacking minded FBs who are heavily included in the build up and the attacking moves. Liverpool and City also have FBs with incredible energy levels. With Valencia and Young i believe it's more a matter of quality than anything else.

But we do seem to have a huge fitness problem. And it's not only Young and Valencia but the majority of the players. The energy levels are very low and there is neither anticipation nor agression from our players when they make a challenge or chase a 50/50 ball.

My guess is that the WC has played a role in that and since we already have suffered one too many injuries LvG doesn't want to push the players.

The big problem is we are short of personnel and we are desperately looking for one of our "big" players to come up with something spectacular and bail us out. Yesterday it was plain obvious that RvP wasn't fit but he was picked, ahead of Welbeck, for that reason.

And that's the main reason LvG has chosen the 3-5-2 to start the season. Three CBs so we don't get caught on the counter all the time, a crowded midfield and of course slow tempo and defending through possession.

I'm more than certain that we will improve in the near future. LvG's best teams played direct football in a high tempo. I believe that's his ultimate goal here.

 

[Distracted Steward]

Against Sunderland, the wingbacks got pushes so far back that it was often a flat back five--and this was due to Sunderland wingers going wide and up without the ball even neat them.

How can that be avoided? Could they have done better dictating the shape without the ball?

It seemed to make United incapable of counterattacking by isolating a slow front three. That has to be solved.

 

[vivaronaldo]

The speed of the epl makes the 3-5-2 such a difficult formation to implement.... Time and time again when we lose the ball the counter attack is a 3 on 3 or 4 on 3 overlap..... And with di Maria on the horizon I have no idea where he will fit as wingbacks need to have defensive responsibilities

 

[The-Natural]

give us a 4-3-3 with RVP flanked by di maria and januzaj pleeaseeee

 

[finneh]

Anyone else think Welbeck plus one is the only way to go for us in a 3-5-2? The big two simply don't work together. it envariaby ends up with Rooney flapping around in midfield. When paired with Welbeck he tends to stay up top more and we look a far better as a unit.

I think most fans are starting to think we are picking a formation around 3 players, rather than the team. With Di Maria the problem could get worse (ie picking it around 4), what's next, a Christmas tree:

DDG
Rafa Jones Rojo Shaw
Herrera Mata Carrick
Di Maria Rooney
____RVP

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I hate for at the back. I sure hope we bag a center midfieler of the caliber of Vidal, to add to Di maria's pace. Then people will witness the true power of the system.

 

[revel911]

1.) How would we have played 4-?-? without having fullbacks? Do we play James as well throwing another youngster just to play 4 in the back?

2.) How anyone can judge this or any formation played with the quality of players out there and the injuries we have is beyond me. No matter what formation we want to play, having the right personal involved is key. If we went:

Jones or Smalling - Evans - Rojo
Rafael - Carrick - Shaw
Herrera
Mata
RvP - Rooney​

That is 6 players missing, SIX .... all in key roles? Do you really think we don't win these last two games with ease?

Now if we went 4-3-3

Rafael - Jones or Smalling - Evans or Rojo - Shaw
Carrick - Herrera
Mata or Kagawa
Janujaz - RvP - Rooney​

That is still 5 players missing, with Di Maria clearly coming instead of Janujaz. Again, that team clearly wins, but is it better or worse that 3-5-2? Well, that is hard to say until we try it with the personal that can actually play it.

 

[gza the genius]

I really don't get why people are blaming the system. Do we really think if we would've played a 442 yesterday that the result/performance would've been any better? A middle four of Young - Cleverley - Fletcher - Valencia is just simply not good enough no matter how they line up. We need to wait until everyone is fit before we can judge the system.

Although having Welbeck and Januzaj starting yesterday would've made a big difference, I'm not sure how Young and Valencia are still getting games.

That said, I am hoping we go to a 433 eventually.

DDG
Rafael - Jones - Evans - Shaw
Herrera - Carrick
Mata
Januzaj - Rooney - Di Maria

I think that line up could be extremely good, and hopefully we can add another center mid in the next couple days to make it even better.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

de Gea
Rafael Evans Rojo Shaw
Herrera Mata de Jong
Januzaj Rooney/van Persie di Maria​

Would like to see a 4-3-3 began to be implemented.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Anyone else think Welbeck plus one is the only way to go for us in a 3-5-2? The big two simply don't work together. it envariaby ends up with Rooney flapping around in midfield. When paired with Welbeck he tends to stay up top more and we look a far better as a unit.

You could argue the same is true for any formation where we use two strikers. With RvP and Rooney both going nowhere - and Welbeck shortly on his bike - it's all a bit of a worry.

 

[revel911]

You could argue the same is true for any formation where we use two strikers. With RvP and Rooney both going nowhere - and Welbeck shortly on his bike - it's all a bit of a worry.

Yesterday is hard to judge ... let's be realistic.

- RvP was half fit, so that will change.
- Welbeck looks like a guy who doesn't give a feck because he knows he is leaving
- Rooney as usual with a bad midfield decides he wants to play 8 positions, so isn't in place where he needs to be.

A fit RvP and a decent team so Rooney will actually stay up and we could be way better. Yes, we need new blood, but those two have the quality.

de Gea
Rafael Evans Rojo Shaw
Herrera Mata de Jong
Januzaj Rooney/van Persie di Maria​

Would like to see a 4-3-3 began to be implemented.

We aren't going to drop Rooney no matter what we want, and lets get De Jong before we add him ..... but otherwise not a bad line-up.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Against Sunderland, the wingbacks got pushes so far back that it was often a flat back five--and this was due to Sunderland wingers going wide and up without the ball even neat them.

How can that be avoided? Could they have done better dictating the shape without the ball?

It seemed to make United incapable of counterattacking by isolating a slow front three. That has to be solved.

It's true that the weakness of the 3-5-2, when defending, lies in the restricted defense, which often gives the opposition opportunities to utilize the width in the defensive zone.

That doesn't mean you can't defend efficiently. But you need excellent positioning and team work to achieve that. The wing back must cover the man on the ball in the wide areas. When the opposition FB overlaps, you have two main options.

The first choice is to instruct the outer CB to move out wide and provide support. But you need a DM who is able to drop deep in the box and cover, an option which is not available to us right now because of Carrick's injury.

The other option is to instruct the CM to go out wide and, when the opposition winger (or FB) cuts inside, follow him, press and drive him in the middle areas outside the box, where we have enough numbers to defend.

We are trying to do the latter but we need improvement. Cleverley and Yound gave away too many silly fouls on our left side and gave Sunderland the opportunity to stay in attack and put many players in our box through set pieces in dangerous areas.

On the right flank, i think we try to mix things a bit due to Fletcher's inability to pick up the diagonal and vertical runs from the wide areas towards the centre. Yesterday it was Jones (and later Keane) who moved out wide with Fletcher staying in the central area in front of the defense. Anyway, that's how it looked to me from the TV.

 

[revel911]

That doesn't mean you can't defend efficiently. But you need excellent positioning and team work to achieve that. The wing back must cover the man on the ball in the wide areas. When the opposition FB overlaps, you have two main options.

The biggest key is keeping possession so you don't get caught on the counter, which Fletcher, Clev and mata just couldn't figure out how to do.

 

[Mister Ed]

Isn't that final formation there with Mata and Januzaj as AMs just your standard 4321? A holding midfielder, 2 hard working box to box midfielder and 2 free roaming AMs. Rafael and Shaw are clearly more fullbacks than wingbacks (don't think it matters if you place them higher up the pitch, they'll still play comparable to fullbacks in my opinion) and Carrick is a better midfielder than centerback. Not sure why you would want that to take the shape of a 3-4-3, 3-5-2 or 4-3-3 at any point during the game and force players in less suited and less familiar positions?

I agree that it's probably the best formation for United. And you can easily make it a diamond if you replace one of the AMs with Rooney, those two look like the best options for United at the moment, especially if you want to include di Maria in a role comparable to where he reached his peak form last season.

Well I want Shaw and Rafael to play higher up and I want carrick to play deep in a defensive role and Januzaj and Mata to play more inside istead as pure wingers.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I admire the optimism of people who think the return of Rafael and Shaw will make this system look any better. I think it will look worse, if anything.

I know Young and Valencia have been poor for ages but asking them to operate out wide with no overlapping runs from a fullback can only make them less of an attacking threat. Take them out of the team and replace them with specialist defenders and there's not a hope in hell of us looking any more threatening out wide.

Shaw's never looked a natural attacker and Rafael's best work going forwards has always been about linking up with Valencia. Dread to think how toothless we'll look if they're being asked to provide all our width on their own.

Di Maria could be great as a LWB but that means our 30m quid boy wonder is benched indefinitely. WTF?

 

[An Irish Red]

It looks really nice on paper but it doesn't work well in practice (not for us anyway). If teams press us high up the pitch we aren't capable of playing it out from the back and if they can close down the fullbacks then they've took away our width (and pace) and forced us to play through the middle, which we're not good at. We're toothless in this formation and far too easy to counter.

Playing four at the back is nailed on in my opinion, most likely some variation of 4-3-3. That would be for the best as well, even if we do have to rotate the 'big three' up top.