Can we just eliminate that already? I just don't give a feck anymore; please, get rid of that formation already.
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
- Start date
People keep putting Mata in their 433 formations.........I have no doubt LVG will switch to 433 soon and when it happens Mata will spend most of the season on the bench....I can never see him having a future at this club....Rooney will drop deeper in midfield if we switch to 433....with Valencia, RVP and Di Maria as a front 3
Funny you mention Mata to be dropped but put Val in you system. I'll have Januzaj above Valencia any day of the week.
Why can't Mata fit into a 433.A 433 usually has a No.10 type player and he is easily our best No.10 so I don't understand why people don't think he can fit in.
Feasibly I suppose, but I think with Herrara out for a few weeks it's more likely we'd see Di Maria in CM than CF if we did stick with 352 (because the latter would mean dropping Rooney or Van Persie and leaving Cleverley on the pitch)
Personally I'd prefer a diamond:
Rooney - Van Persie
Mata
Herrara ------- Di Maria
Carrick
Shaw - Rojo - Smalling - Rafael
DDG
Mata
Herrara ------- Di Maria
Carrick
Shaw - Rojo - Smalling - Rafael
DDG
That's my thinking too. Best way to get all our best players involved (bar Januzaj). I reckon though if RVP/Rooney don't click than LVG has the ruthlessness to drop one of them, stick Januzaj in and go 433 or keep the diamond via a direct swap. Only problem is as today showed there really isn't much beyond that first eleven without further signings. We could probably get by with the odd change but once it becomes multiple it falls down a lot.
It's just not working, and we seem to have absolutely no plan for how to break down teams.
The hybrid option between full backs and wingers is leaving us with absolutely no danger out wide. Valencia / Young will receive the ball just above the half way line, and the opposition in balance will have two wide players to defend against our wide man at all times. The lack of an overlapping full back then means that we're pretty much asking them to take on two men to be able to create something, which is nigh on impossible. The result of course is that we simply recycle possession without creating much, and wash, rinse and repeat until we lose the ball.
If this system is to work we need some major changes from today:
- Carrick, or another player comfortable in possession and with a decent passing range, needs to play as the middle centre back when we play against teams that stand off with eight outfield players. There is so much space for this player to move in to and exploit, but it's impossible to take advantage of unless you a player who's comfortable on the ball and has the required range of passing.
- We need RUNNERS in midfield behind Mata. You simply can't afford to have two midfielders who are content with sitting back and shielding the defense and recycling possession when we've already sacrificed proper wingers for three centre backs. The midfielders need to be able to move swiftly enough around the pitch, both horizontally and vertically, in order to offer both the full backs and the front three support and options off the ball. And I'm not talking about the kind of "support" that involves being available for a 10 metre back pass like we saw today.
Today we were essentially banking on Mata, Rooney and RvP to find a way through Sunderland's compact two lines of defense centrally, or one of Young or Valencia to do the same out wide. It simply won't work. We need them to support our wide players to get them higher up on the pitch, and to make runs and open up spaces for our front three when we're trying to weave through centrally.
Oh and Mata, RvP and Rooney all need to start moving their asses as well to create openings. Unlike they did today, although I thought Mata at least tried to capitalize on it when we got Welbeck on who was a bit more active and managed to create some space for him to run in by stretching the defense.
There's a lot that needs to be fixed if this is ever going to work.
The hybrid option between full backs and wingers is leaving us with absolutely no danger out wide. Valencia / Young will receive the ball just above the half way line, and the opposition in balance will have two wide players to defend against our wide man at all times. The lack of an overlapping full back then means that we're pretty much asking them to take on two men to be able to create something, which is nigh on impossible. The result of course is that we simply recycle possession without creating much, and wash, rinse and repeat until we lose the ball.
If this system is to work we need some major changes from today:
- Carrick, or another player comfortable in possession and with a decent passing range, needs to play as the middle centre back when we play against teams that stand off with eight outfield players. There is so much space for this player to move in to and exploit, but it's impossible to take advantage of unless you a player who's comfortable on the ball and has the required range of passing.
- We need RUNNERS in midfield behind Mata. You simply can't afford to have two midfielders who are content with sitting back and shielding the defense and recycling possession when we've already sacrificed proper wingers for three centre backs. The midfielders need to be able to move swiftly enough around the pitch, both horizontally and vertically, in order to offer both the full backs and the front three support and options off the ball. And I'm not talking about the kind of "support" that involves being available for a 10 metre back pass like we saw today.
Today we were essentially banking on Mata, Rooney and RvP to find a way through Sunderland's compact two lines of defense centrally, or one of Young or Valencia to do the same out wide. It simply won't work. We need them to support our wide players to get them higher up on the pitch, and to make runs and open up spaces for our front three when we're trying to weave through centrally.
Oh and Mata, RvP and Rooney all need to start moving their asses as well to create openings. Unlike they did today, although I thought Mata at least tried to capitalize on it when we got Welbeck on who was a bit more active and managed to create some space for him to run in by stretching the defense.
There's a lot that needs to be fixed if this is ever going to work.
This was suggested in the Di Maria thread as well, and is by far my preferred option if we seal the Di Maria deal.
Yeah let's bin a formation we've worked on for weeks and haven't seen our fully fit first XI play, the state of some you lot. How the feck can we go 4 at the back right now and risk isolating the likes of Keane and Blackett? Wait until everyone is fit and let's see.
The goal of this formation, as with any other, is to get the best out of the best players. If there's another option that is more likely to do that, it doesn't matter if we've worked on it for five years. It's just numbers on a paper anyways, and what really matters is the roles you assign the players.
And I couldn't give a toss about Blackett and Keane, if extending them chances in the first team impede on our chances of getting fourth. They've done well in pre season, and today (bar Keane's black out in the box), and if they are good enough they will push through. And given that we are United, and it's mandatory for us to have at least three centre backs injured at all times, they'll get plenty of opportunities anyways.
You can not give a toss all you want, we have no other CB's available and we aren't going to finish 4th. This formation was built to get the best out that front 3 and they haven't performed, yet.
you can't write the 3-5-2 off this early.
We haven't been able to play Shaw, Rafael, Carrick, Evans in in any of the games, and have only had Van Persie and Herrera for one of the two.
Add in Di Maria and a fully fit squad and it could be completely different.
We haven't been able to play Shaw, Rafael, Carrick, Evans in in any of the games, and have only had Van Persie and Herrera for one of the two.
Add in Di Maria and a fully fit squad and it could be completely different.
You'll put those players in 4-3-3 and have the same kind of shit played as today. It's not the system or it's principles, it's the players that are not executing tasks handed to them by the manager.
What? The bolded parts make sense in relation to the points I've been making above.
You're right about the fact that we won't finish 4th, we'll probably come in at 3rd when all is said and done. We just need to find some momentum and build some confidence.
You said you couldn't give a toss about Keane or Blackett, which is all very well but they are 2 of our 3 available (soon 4/5) CB's, so right now we can't play 4 at the back. And you also said formations are supposed to get the best out of our players, well how else can we get can sufficient defensive protection with our porous midfield and get our front three of RVP, Mata and Rooney in their best positions?
Any formation which has Rooney/Mata/RVP as our front 3 needs to be binned. None of them have any pace and hinder each other. RVP is 31 and Rooney looks past it at the highest level. Adnan should be getting as many minutes as possible he's the future.
I interpreted your post as stating that we should keep three centrally in defense because we needed to ensure that Keane and Blackett was afforded chances. If the intended meaning was otherwise, I apologize. But the point of my response was that we shouldn't adapt our system to make sure that they get matches. Next week we'll have Rojo and Jones (knock on wood) ready to play CB.
And the answer to your second question is in the posts above, the one I quoted and the little essay I posted. When we're playing teams like Sunderland who drop deep the focus shouldn't be on offering protection to our three centre backs, as they are protecting each other, but how we can offer support to the front three in order to break down the opponent.
As for the diamond in the post I quoted, you're playing with two traditional full backs there, which means that both full backs do not bomb forward (past the midfield) at the same time, which again leaves us with three defenders to keep the balance just as the 5-3-2 (or 3-5-2 as the title here says).
Anyways, I'm not inherently opposed to the 5-3-2 / 3-5-2 / 3-4-1-2 / whatever you wish to call it, I just think that if we bring in Di Maria the diamond would be a better fit if we're insisting on keeping two strikers on. But I made an essay saying what's wrong with how we're playing in the current formation above, and I'm certain it could work if we're able to sort it out.
This formation will continue to be questioned until we win whilst playing well with it. More than the formation is the issue here. Namely the injuries mean that the players being shoehorned into it are sub-optimal.
This back three thing isn't as defensive as I think you think it is. Two outer CB's can push up with cover and bring the ball up, wing-back's are pretty much supposed to be wingers hence Valencia and Young playing there. We just aren't executing the vision for a variety of reasons.
The way we've been playing these two matches the outer CB are not offering any support at all to the wing backs / wingers, which is a huge problem so long as we have midfielders completely incapable of doing just that. I do not think that the CBs are instructed to do that though in this current system. They only seem to step out of the line when on the ball, and even then we don't have enough movement in front of them to allow them to take advantage of the space in front of them.
As I have interpreted the way LvG wants to play this system, that's what he wants. The crux of my argument is that this means that we end up with wingers without any kind of support going up against two opponents, a wide midfielder and a full back. It's a pretty big ask from anyone to create danger from a situation like that. I think the key to making this system work is to be able to get the wing backs on the ball higher up the pitch, but I do think it would be an "easier" solution to play with a more traditional back four, and have a full back and a winger create out wide in tandem.
Completely agree.
The 3-5-2 isn't why Fletcher and Cleverley were thoroughly incapable of asserting themselves or capable of creating chances, they just played poorly. In general we lacked leadership, intent and a willingness to play progressively and take risks.
Those issues do not stem from the system we elect to play and they were all problems evident last season under Moyes when we played four at the back.
I almost feel as though there are certain instinctive outs that just didn't appear with Moyes and now Van Gaal's system. Players who know where a player is and look up and hit him quickly. It's almost as though these guys have to physically assess the field for movement and players every time they get the ball.
There is no instinctive ball playing and sleek interplay that comes with it. Or so I have been observing - I just can't put my finger on what is off.
There is no instinctive ball playing and sleek interplay that comes with it. Or so I have been observing - I just can't put my finger on what is off.
Definitely but I would say had we gone for januzaj and welbeck on the flanks in a 4231 rather than trying to stick to the system we would have had a much more varied attack with pace without giving away much if anything defensively.
Yeah I see us binning this once everyone is fit (and Di Maria is hopefully signed)
---------------De Gea---------------
Rafael---Smalling---Jones---Shaw
---------------Carrick---------------
-------Di Maria------Herrera-------
----------------Mata----------------
------------RVP-----Rooney------------
Subs: Amos, Rojo, Evans, Fletcher, Valencia, Januzaj, Welbeck
Suddenly life won't look so bad with that XI, of course we could go with a flat 4-4-2 with Di Maria and Januzaj as wingers or alternatively 4-3-3 however that will require players to be played out of position and or dropped
---------------De Gea---------------
Rafael---Smalling---Jones---Shaw
---------------Carrick---------------
-------Di Maria------Herrera-------
----------------Mata----------------
------------RVP-----Rooney------------
Subs: Amos, Rojo, Evans, Fletcher, Valencia, Januzaj, Welbeck
Suddenly life won't look so bad with that XI, of course we could go with a flat 4-4-2 with Di Maria and Januzaj as wingers or alternatively 4-3-3 however that will require players to be played out of position and or dropped
We need to go back to 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 ASAP.
Forget this narrow shit, we need to hit the next game with Januzaj and Di Maria on the flanks. We just cannot play through the centre
I would actually like to see us transition to a 3-4-3 which essentially breaks down into a 2-1-4-2-1 formation and can easily switch to a traditional 4-3-3 formation and our current 3-5-2 formation.
---------------GK--------------
------RCB-------------LCB-------
--------------CDM--------------
RWB------CM------CM------LWB
-----RAM--------------LAM-----
---------------SP---------------
Transition to 4-3-3
RWB=>RB
LWB=>LB
RAM=>RW
LAM=>LW
Transition to 3-5-2
CDM=>CB
RAM=>CAM
LAM=>SP
The way I'd play it:
----------------DDG-----------------
--------Jones-----------Rojo--------
---------------Carrick---------------
Rafael-----Herrera--Di Maria------Shaw
-------Mata--------------Januzaj
----------------RVP-----------------
---------------GK--------------
------RCB-------------LCB-------
--------------CDM--------------
RWB------CM------CM------LWB
-----RAM--------------LAM-----
---------------SP---------------
Transition to 4-3-3
RWB=>RB
LWB=>LB
RAM=>RW
LAM=>LW
Transition to 3-5-2
CDM=>CB
RAM=>CAM
LAM=>SP
The way I'd play it:
----------------DDG-----------------
--------Jones-----------Rojo--------
---------------Carrick---------------
Rafael-----Herrera--Di Maria------Shaw
-------Mata--------------Januzaj
----------------RVP-----------------
So just got back, and I want to add my input to this. Could be a lengthy post, I do tend to ramble...
With Di Maria coming in, I really think it would be stupid of us not to revert to a 4231.
The 352 is just clearly not working. Injuries haven't helped, but even without certain players, this formation makes us look all over the place.
The gaps between the defence and wingbacks are criminal at times, and the amount of balls that get played into that space is telling. Obviously having Shaw and Rafael over Young and Valencia would help, but it's not even the wing backs.
Today we had to resort to two reserve players in central defence, and the inexperience shows.
What I have noticed is, with the lack of actual wingers in the formation, we are not pressing the ball at all. We are happily sitting back and allowing teams to come at us, which to an extent would be fine, if when we won the ball, we broke with direct play and plenty of pace, but when we are winning the ball, we are sitting on it, slowly going forward, but by that time, they have got in their defensive positions and are prepared.
With the lack of wingers, we have nobody out wide to press, so teams can come forward quite easily. Rooney, Mata and RVP can only do so much, but when teams pass out wide, they have time and space to decide what they want to do.
If Van Gaal wants to get his best players into a formation, having Januzaj, Mata and Di Maria behind Rooney is much better than playing wing backs.
Our only real chance came when Valencia took on their left back, but for most of the match, when the ball went out wide, rather than turn, face and run at the defender, he just casual passed it inside, and it moved us backwords. Hopefully Di Maria will play as a winger, and he will actually take on players. When Januzaj plays on the wing, he does that also, he just lacks the final ball some times, but them two have the confidence and ability to run at defenders, use some skill, and beat their men, whereas Valencia and Young seem to pass inside, rather than risk taking on their players.
Today doesn't help with the injuries we had, and that Cleverley and Fletcher where both terrible, but I think everybody got a bit giddy with this 352 formation due to the world cup and pre season, me included, but it's really showing it doesn't work. With Di Maria coming in, I think we need a solid go to defender, who is reliable to play every week, and shows some leadership, and a defensive midfielder, who will protect the back four. As much as I want Vidal, somebody more like De Jong is probably needed.
As it stands, with us playing with such slow build up, the likes of RVP and Mata are dropping deep to collect the ball, purely down to the lack of quality in midfield. What we need is, midfielders who have already passed the ball in our own half to the likes of Mata, who can turn, already knowing that Di Maria and Januzaj are stretching the full backs, so Mata has some time to either go out wide, or through the middle, because right now, whats happening is that we build up so slow, and because our wing backs don't want to get to forward, it gives the oppoisition fullbacks time to push us backwards, rather than us pushing teams backwards.
Our best play today came on the few occasions when we did win the ball further up the field and got it forward early, but the problem is, we do that on very few occasions
With Di Maria coming in, I really think it would be stupid of us not to revert to a 4231.
The 352 is just clearly not working. Injuries haven't helped, but even without certain players, this formation makes us look all over the place.
The gaps between the defence and wingbacks are criminal at times, and the amount of balls that get played into that space is telling. Obviously having Shaw and Rafael over Young and Valencia would help, but it's not even the wing backs.
Today we had to resort to two reserve players in central defence, and the inexperience shows.
What I have noticed is, with the lack of actual wingers in the formation, we are not pressing the ball at all. We are happily sitting back and allowing teams to come at us, which to an extent would be fine, if when we won the ball, we broke with direct play and plenty of pace, but when we are winning the ball, we are sitting on it, slowly going forward, but by that time, they have got in their defensive positions and are prepared.
With the lack of wingers, we have nobody out wide to press, so teams can come forward quite easily. Rooney, Mata and RVP can only do so much, but when teams pass out wide, they have time and space to decide what they want to do.
If Van Gaal wants to get his best players into a formation, having Januzaj, Mata and Di Maria behind Rooney is much better than playing wing backs.
Our only real chance came when Valencia took on their left back, but for most of the match, when the ball went out wide, rather than turn, face and run at the defender, he just casual passed it inside, and it moved us backwords. Hopefully Di Maria will play as a winger, and he will actually take on players. When Januzaj plays on the wing, he does that also, he just lacks the final ball some times, but them two have the confidence and ability to run at defenders, use some skill, and beat their men, whereas Valencia and Young seem to pass inside, rather than risk taking on their players.
Today doesn't help with the injuries we had, and that Cleverley and Fletcher where both terrible, but I think everybody got a bit giddy with this 352 formation due to the world cup and pre season, me included, but it's really showing it doesn't work. With Di Maria coming in, I think we need a solid go to defender, who is reliable to play every week, and shows some leadership, and a defensive midfielder, who will protect the back four. As much as I want Vidal, somebody more like De Jong is probably needed.
As it stands, with us playing with such slow build up, the likes of RVP and Mata are dropping deep to collect the ball, purely down to the lack of quality in midfield. What we need is, midfielders who have already passed the ball in our own half to the likes of Mata, who can turn, already knowing that Di Maria and Januzaj are stretching the full backs, so Mata has some time to either go out wide, or through the middle, because right now, whats happening is that we build up so slow, and because our wing backs don't want to get to forward, it gives the oppoisition fullbacks time to push us backwards, rather than us pushing teams backwards.
Our best play today came on the few occasions when we did win the ball further up the field and got it forward early, but the problem is, we do that on very few occasions
This needs to go. We so lack width to stretch the defense and the two wing backs we have, which are the most important positions in the formation are utterly terrible options.
The trouble today with the 3-5-2 was that it was 5-3-2 in the first half with Valencia and Young staying deep as extra defenders. They were slightly better in the second half.
Valencia and Young do not make any runs to get in behind the defenders. Even if the midfielders or Mata wanted to give a through ball they could not due to this reason. Januzaj would go forward, obviously Cleverley doesn't, and Young wouldn't make a run. This forced him to just give it to Cleverley or Young who will only try to cross it in. The middle is congested so the forwards will either pass it back or give it to the wingbacks. Valencia and Young don't try to beat their mans either and it just makes matters worse.
I think the wingbacks are the main problem right now.
I think the wingbacks are the main problem right now.
This 3-5-2 is nonsense. Please stop it.
I really don't like it. I know it looks pretty on paper and makes us different, but I just don't see it working game after game.
And three centre backs on the pitch all playing as centre backs is just overkill. I found the Netherlands dull to watch and lacking in width going forward.
And three centre backs on the pitch all playing as centre backs is just overkill. I found the Netherlands dull to watch and lacking in width going forward.
This is my preferred formation too. If we can get a proper defensive midfielder in who is willing to get stuck in and has pace as well it will be even better. But from the rubbish we have in midfield right now, Carrick looks like the best option.
Its pretty tough for Valencia to play virtually 1v2 or 1v3 without having Rafael running past him so he can get a one on one situation.. He's been playing for 5 years like this and asked to change instantly...
In essence, 3-5-2 only works when both teams have responsibility to attack, not against parked bus sides
In essence, 3-5-2 only works when both teams have responsibility to attack, not against parked bus sides
We're selecting worse personnel due to this formation. We have better players on the bench in Januzaj, Kagawa and Welbeck as opposed to the likes of Young and Valencia. With a fully fit squad I think this could be manageable, but I've maintained from the outset that we should be playing 433, and the only reason we're not is because of the Rooney-Van Persie conundrum, which for the second season in a row, threatens the balance within our first team.
With Januzaj and the impending Di Maria, we have two of the most dangerous wide men in the division. They can terrify defenders. We need to make a decision on Van Persie, now that Rooney is captain, allow Mata and Kagawa to battle it out at #10 and give Herrera a genuine partner.
Shaw and Rafa will excel at full back and I'm fine with our cental quartet in a four man defence. Honestly, I think we need to bin this formation pronto.
With Januzaj and the impending Di Maria, we have two of the most dangerous wide men in the division. They can terrify defenders. We need to make a decision on Van Persie, now that Rooney is captain, allow Mata and Kagawa to battle it out at #10 and give Herrera a genuine partner.
Shaw and Rafa will excel at full back and I'm fine with our cental quartet in a four man defence. Honestly, I think we need to bin this formation pronto.
Isn't that final formation there with Mata and Januzaj as AMs just your standard 4321? A holding midfielder, 2 hard working box to box midfielder and 2 free roaming AMs. Rafael and Shaw are clearly more fullbacks than wingbacks (don't think it matters if you place them higher up the pitch, they'll still play comparable to fullbacks in my opinion) and Carrick is a better midfielder than centerback. Not sure why you would want that to take the shape of a 3-4-3, 3-5-2 or 4-3-3 at any point during the game and force players in less suited and less familiar positions?
I agree that it's probably the best formation for United. And you can easily make it a diamond if you replace one of the AMs with Rooney, those two look like the best options for United at the moment, especially if you want to include di Maria in a role comparable to where he reached his peak form last season.
We need to drop this 5 at the back shite and play a good attacking/winning formation. For me, midfield is the most important area. They need to provide protection for the defenders and also provide support to the attackers. I don't care which striker gets dropped, but i want to see a 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2. We need an extra body in midfield, not in defense. Plus going back to a traditional back 4 would help the defenders settle down, right now they sometimes look clueless.