We'll switch to a 433 once Di Maria gets here.
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
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To be honest the topic was actually waste of time indeed. I find this is not even important to discussed. 433 or 4231 or point forward. Does it really matter what LVG want to call it? I just don't think so.
Why are you still talking to me?
The great Arrigo Sachi once said “It is not a question of 4-4-2 or 4-2-1-3, it is a question of having a team which is ordered, in which the players are connected to one another, which moves together, as if it was a single player."
People are obsessing far too much with the formation rather than team play and the players working together and as LvG says "play with their brains" it will take time to instill this philosophy into the squad. We might lose a few "easy" matches in the early going but I think LvG will come through regardless of the formation. I just hope he gets to bring in the players he wants to play the way he wants.
People are obsessing far too much with the formation rather than team play and the players working together and as LvG says "play with their brains" it will take time to instill this philosophy into the squad. We might lose a few "easy" matches in the early going but I think LvG will come through regardless of the formation. I just hope he gets to bring in the players he wants to play the way he wants.
Does he really do this now? I'm pretty sure he always called it a 4-2-3-1 during his time with us, definitely never called it a 4-3-3. Not that he often used those silly numbers, but the few times he did, I'm quite sure 4-3-3 wasn't ever the way he described the team. I always felt that van Gaal has his own definitions and just reacts to media reports or journalists using those numbers and I wouldn't be surprised if he calls it differently now than he did back then. It doesn't really mean a lot to him and most of the time formations are slightly asymetrical anyway and a mix between at least two of them.
Talk about the system and the philosophy as much as you want, the formation is important too. The important thing is that the players are good in the roles the formation uses and that they are used to play in the formation, if you aren't used to the formation you look all over the place, like we against Swansea. At the moment I don't think we are suited for 3-4-1-2 on the pitch, looks all nice on the paper, but I wonder how much the Netherlands would've done in the world cup without Robben. Next thing is that our midfield seems unable to connect to the rest of the players, when we defend there is a huge gap between our back-three and the midfield, almost as if they think they don't have to track back, because there are 3 defenders anyways. Once we have the ball and our midfield is on their way to attack we fail to integrate Mata in the match, there is the gap between midfield and attack. Whether playing Mata deeper is the solution, I don't know, but in the current situation all the opposition has to do is mark Mata and we'll switch to long balls, because the width isn't there with our current wing-back options. The most important thing a midfield has to do is being the balance between defence and attack and it failed in that against Swansea.
In this article he calls it the 1-4-3-3 with the point forward and the diagram that is related to the formation shows what most people these days call a 4-2-3-1. He just seems to have his own way of naming formations I remember him also talking about our current 3-4-1-2 as a 1-3-4-3.
But does he ever mention his Bayern side in this article? The whole point forward/backward thing is all nice, but Müller played further forward than our wide players, it clearly was a 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1, never a 4-3-3 point forward formation and I'm quite certain that he never called it a 433 at all.
I can't find the quote, but I'm sure he once said, that he doesn't really care about formations, he played 3-4-3 with Ajax, 4-3-3 with Barca, 4-4-2 with Alkmaar and 4-2-3-1 with Bayern.
Did it fail because of the formation in itself or the players inability to execute? You're absolutely right in saying that the players are not used to playing the formation but the only way to learn is to play. Maybe 3412 might not work for us but LvG has a vision and he sees that thats how he'll achieve it. In the second half we changed formation to 4411 but the performance hardly changed so in my view its too soon to judge the formation after one competitive match. With the quality of the midfielders/defenders and the current injuries I dont really think it would matter which formation we play we'd still have a tough time in those areas.
I think it failed because the players couldn't perform the given roles in the position, whether that's down to their quality or just experience in the formation is hard to answer. Thing is, I don't see 3-4-1-2 as our long-term formation, so why do we invest so much time and lose matches because of it?
If you think the players aren't good enough for any formation then you could argue that we need a specialist wing-back, a CB and a CM to perform it well. I'd argue that we need a winger, a CM and a CB to perform the 4-3-3 well and that would be the wiser thing to do IMO.
Thinking that Carrick, Evans and Shaw missing was the reason we looked so dodgy in the back makes you realize how bad our squad really is.
My guess is that he describes any formation just in four digits with one always being the goal keeper. Which makes the 4-2-3-1 into a 1-4-3-3 and the 3-4-1-2 into a 1-3-4-3 while the 4-4-2 can stay a 1-4-4-2 and so on. But let's be honest no one knows why LvG is doing anything or calling anything in a certain way. Maybe he likes the simplicity of it or maybe he just wants to feck with poor football Muppets heads who knows?
Well the difference between the two formations is either getting a winger or a specialist wing-back but in any case we need another CM and a CB and I cant see any further signings happening tbf. If I dont see 3412 working consistently then that might change my mind but for now im willing to put faith in the manager hopefully he knows what hes doing. I think he mentioned on the tour that 433 would be the go to formation in case 3412 fails so im not bothered by it at the moment.
True, and getting a winger that fits is a lot easier IMO.
I don't think he'll drop the 3-4-1-2 either, especially after we got rid of Nani now.
I thought it is indeed weird calling 4231 as a 433.
At least the guy from Munich himself come and make it clear that LVG never called it as a 433.
And also thanks for the information of how LVG usually react to the media report or journalist. It is clear and makes sense now.
So LVG likes the 3-5-2 because it can fit in more players (attacking wise) and it's the only way to play Rooney and RVP in their best positions.
In which case, I hope Di Maria will be the engine in our CM and not as a wing back. I'm sure he'd be good there, but I don't feel he should be burdened with such responsibility. Alas, this is how I hope we look when we're all at full flow:
Maybe Januzaj will also be burdened by the responsibilities, but it could be good for his development. At the same time, it could hinder him. That's for LVG to decide. Regardless, I'm sure he'll get games when Mata/Rooney/RVP need a rest.
In which case, I hope Di Maria will be the engine in our CM and not as a wing back. I'm sure he'd be good there, but I don't feel he should be burdened with such responsibility. Alas, this is how I hope we look when we're all at full flow:
De Gea
Jones Smalling Rojo
Januzaj ADM Mata Herrera Shaw
Rooney RVP
Jones Smalling Rojo
Januzaj ADM Mata Herrera Shaw
Rooney RVP
Maybe Januzaj will also be burdened by the responsibilities, but it could be good for his development. At the same time, it could hinder him. That's for LVG to decide. Regardless, I'm sure he'll get games when Mata/Rooney/RVP need a rest.
This line-up is madness. Januzaj cannot play as wingback - he is not defensive enough. It would also stifle his creativity a lot. Wingbacks need to be proper work-horses who can get up and down all day. An in-form Valencia is perfect (although such a thing may not exist). There is no-one in midfield to intercept and win the ball.
That's a pretty weak line-up, physically and defensively.
Admittedly, as soon as I posted it, I actually looked at the midfield and thought "Shit, that's actually pretty weak defensively"
It really is a pickle. For Mata and Di Maria to play in the same midfield, we'd need someone like De Jong which would mean dropping Herrera for the 3-5-2.
Shove Di Maria to the wing, and then you have the problem of having him doing defensive responsibilities.
Mind-boggling. At least our bench will be guaranteed a game-changer every time....
I think the only we'll get Mata, Di Maria, Rooney and RVP starting will be using the same system City use or the diamond. I think we're too weak in midfield to play like City do though.
Admittedly, as soon as I posted it, I actually looked at the midfield and thought "Shit, that's actually pretty weak defensively"
It really is a pickle. For Mata and Di Maria to play in the same midfield, we'd need someone like De Jong which would mean dropping Herrera for the 3-5-2.
Shove Di Maria to the wing, and then you have the problem of having him doing defensive responsibilities.
Mind-boggling. At least our bench will be guaranteed a game-changer every time....
I don't expect Di Maria and Mata will be playing together very much in all honesty.
Admittedly, as soon as I posted it, I actually looked at the midfield and thought "Shit, that's actually pretty weak defensively"
It really is a pickle. For Mata and Di Maria to play in the same midfield, we'd need someone like De Jong which would mean dropping Herrera for the 3-5-2.
Shove Di Maria to the wing, and then you have the problem of having him doing defensive responsibilities.
Mind-boggling. At least our bench will be guaranteed a game-changer every time....
I expect if he joins it'll be a non-symmetrical 4-4-2 system we'd use.
Di Maria on the left touchline for width and Mata and Rooney playing towards the right (but not on the wing), with Rafael/Valencia providing the width and a De Jong (or similar) covering the right of defence if Rafa/Valencia are out of position.
Could work.
You wouldn't say no to that, would you?I expect if he joins it'll be a non-symmetrical 4-4-2 system we'd use.
Di Maria on the left touchline for width and Mata and Rooney playing towards the right (but not on the wing), with Rafael/Valencia providing the width and a De Jong (or similar) covering the right of defence if Rafa/Valencia are out of position.
The problem with this formation is that it essentially makes our worst footballer, Smalling, our playmaker. It's hideous to look at. You need technically good defenders who can pass and carry the ball if you want to play this system, and we don't have that.
Bring back the 433, please, we look completely out of ideas like this.
Bring back the 433, please, we look completely out of ideas like this.
It doesn't work.
We get ripped apart on the counter and our defenders are abysmal on the ball (abysmal in general at everything).
We get ripped apart on the counter and our defenders are abysmal on the ball (abysmal in general at everything).
It's a bollocks formation, the players just cannot adapt to such a change after playing 4 at the back all their lives.
Yea because if we put Cleverley and Fletcher ( or any of our midfielders as a matter of fact bar Herrera and Carrick there ) in a 4-3-3 we'll look better.
We are probably so short on fullbacks , this system is being played because of that. That is how bad our defensive options are, he has said 433 is his preferred system. Do Maria defiantly will change out system , but I agree 352 is not working
The other problem with many expecting Rooney mata and RVP to deliver, when you got guys like smalling young fletcher and Cleverley not doing their jobs right, these 3 are very ineffective
It's not the formation, it's the personnel. Only getting players back from injury, or signings, will fix things.
True but then makes little sense to play a formation that the players available don't suit at all. I think it's making us look worse than we are.
It's not the formation - it's the players we have who are mostly alient to possession. As LVG has said, he needs to train the brain of the players and that is key. LVG is playing 3-5-2 because he has to accomodate 3 of our best players somehow. Our midfield sucks though,not sure what Ferguson was thinking all those years, United can't keep the ball, that's the problem.
I don't think it works when you have a LWB who isn't at all comfortable on his left foot. He needs to be pushing wider and creating space by drawing the wingers back, but because he's constantly cutting inside then that's just not happening.
The team cant transition to a change without width. The ball goes to one player out wide and back to the CM. Only when Valencia took it on and thumped it along the ground did we do anything.
I get we want to play rooney/mata/rvp long term and this can fit them in but not at the cost of the rest of the team. Playing 3 at the back when only 1 of them, Blackett shows any real compusre on the ball is pointless because it just means the other team can stand off us put more pressure on the midfield who would probably have struggled enough before hand.
Then got wingbacks who's attacking output does not make up for their defensive deficiencies although Valencia put in a good ball for the goal. Then cause the midfield are reduced to playing even less penetrative balls due to the pressure the forwards have to drop deeper where their lack of pace makes it hard for them to go anywhere but pass it back.
I would like to know how would you play 4-3-3 or in fact any other formation with Fletcher and Cleverley as our only actual midfielders.
It's not the formation.
It's not the formation.
The key to this formation is CM and the wing backs and all four are shocking. You replace them with Herrera, Carrick, Rafael and Shaw and then judge how the system works.
It's not the formation, it's the players.
We have seen plenty of good teams play 3 at the back. A lot of PL teams now do.
The problem is the players. To play 3-5-2 you need wingbacks and CMs.
Ours are currently lacking. Rafael on the right and Di Maria on the left, then Herrera and [someone decent] in the middle, and things will look a lot better.
We have seen plenty of good teams play 3 at the back. A lot of PL teams now do.
The problem is the players. To play 3-5-2 you need wingbacks and CMs.
Ours are currently lacking. Rafael on the right and Di Maria on the left, then Herrera and [someone decent] in the middle, and things will look a lot better.
4-3-3 please.
Tell me how would you play 4-3-3 with our current squad.