4231 and 433 are different.
So the 3-5-2
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4231 and 433 are different.
Of course they're different.. Surely that is implied in my post?
I'm saying that Van Gaal calls them the same thing. He just calls a 4-2-3-1 a 4-3-3. He does it all the time.
Any proof if he ever said it's the same?
Oh I know. I was just looking for a way to fit Mata into a system in his preferred position that's not 3-5-2.
Deary me. Are you reading what I am saying?
I'm not saying that he thinks they are the same, but rather that he uses the same term to describe them both. It's really not complicated - he obviously just considers 4-2-3-1 a variant of a 4-3-3 so he uses the same term to describe two different variants.
Again, I would have thought you could have implied this from his distinction on having 'the point' forward or backwards, as in CM/CM/AM vs DM/CM/CM. The former is what most people now call a 4-2-3-1, but Van Gaal does not.
I already gave you examples of when he has used the term 4-3-3 to describe a 4-2-3-1. He has already done in at press conferences concerning United - Van Gaal has said that this United side is used to playing 4-3-3, when in fact we played a 4-2-3-1 with something like Rooney behind Van Persie. We did not play a 4-3-3 but that is what Van Gaal has called it.
He does the same thing with his Munich side which he calls a 4-3-3 instead of a 4-2-3-1. In the Champions League final for example with Ribery injured they lined up like this,
---------- Olic ----
Altintop - Muller - Robben
Did you not watch the United vs Bayern games?
-------- Olic --------
Ribery - Muller - Robben
This is what people would typically call a 4-2-3-1, but Van Gaal has referred to them as 4-3-3. As I told you at the beginning he clearly just considers 4-2-3-1 a variant of a 4-3-3 so uses the same term to describe it.
Well when in the PDF Louis van Gaal talks about a number 10 capable of functioning as a second striker, it's quite obvious that his number 10 is not a central midfielder. So yes, it is primary school stuff, perhaps not for you but for most people.
We did need a 4th center back for injury reasons, anyways, at the rate that our guys miss time. Blackett isn't near ready yet defensively and if we weren't playing 3 at the back he'd be a perfect candidate for a Champo loan and 40 games playing against decent strikers every week (that league may not be great, but the strikers aren't terrible and there's a good variety of them).
You are just trying to mock me by saying it as a primary school stuff. I can't see a formation, number 10 role, 433 as a primary school stuff. Primary school never learn diagram like this. What kind of primary of school you are talking about jeezz.
LVG put a number for every single triangle in diagram. Just because he put number 10 doesn't mean it's called as a number 10 role. The reason why they called it 433 because the three midfields play their role more as central role. One of the central mid could go forward further when we are attacking like Kroos, and the other centre midfield could stay deeper like Alonso. But the point is they can't stay front too long. While number 10 role is rarely to drop back that much to help the defenders.
You are just come here for telling me that LVG used the same term to describe both of them. They are indeed a similar formation. But LVG still thinks it's different.
Clearly LVG has no clue about what formation we used before he came, I reckon he got it wrong. With RVP is here, we used to play with 442 or 4411 or even 4231. LVG thought we used the real 433 but that doesn't mean he was talking 4231.
I only watch that game and I didn't watch the press conference match or interview that he called it as a 433. And may be LVG switched the formation
You're impossible to talk to, but believe what you want man. Maintain the delusion that you always know best.
And of course he had a clue on what system the team he manages used to play. Van Gaal is paid millions a year to process and understand that information - he is not incompetent.
And in addition - as I've told you three times now - it's not just with United that he has called a 4-2-3-1 a 4-3-3. I've seen him do it with United, Munich and Holland.
It's not difficult and it's not complicated - he clearly considers the specifics of where the 'point' is in a midfield three as being variants of the same system and consequently applies the same term to both variants.
It's not even a controversial thing to do considering the relative infancy of 4-2-3-1 as a descriptive term. As a system it was only at the turn of the century that it really took hold, which is far after Van Gaal first entered coaching and management.
3-5-2 can be just as good as 4-3-3 with the right players, it just needs very competant defenders who are comfortable with the ball and midfielders with astute tactical awareness. I feel Januzaj would love playing off of the main striker like Robben did in the world cup, popping up on the left and right whilst defenders need to deal with RVP/Rooney would be very dangerous, pretty much what Welbeck was doing in pre season.
I think I'm wasting my time here. You keep saying what you believe without any strong proof or link to judge what you said is correct or wrong. Van Gaal saw us using 433 when we against his Bayern, not a big surprise why he thought we always use 433.
Embarrassing. Genuinely embarrassing and everything that's wrong with the forum recently. You just can't admit anything.
For the fourth time - Van Gaal does this all the time. Whether he's talking about United, Munich, Holland or Rivaldo's Barcelona. He quite clearly considers a 4-2-3-1 a variant of 4-3-3. He's shown this consistently, and has already done so in United conferences you have admitted to not watching. Incredible.
Absolutely hilarious that you try and get round the incompetency critique by suggesting it would be perfectly reasonable for the extent of Van Gaal's assessment to consistent of analysing two games which took place well over four years ago. It's insane, but genuinely interesting to see the depths to which you'll plunge to come up with justifications for your viewpoint.
As I told you before, he is not incompetent which such an analysis would be. I mean seriously, give him the slightest bit of credit. Give United as an organisation some credit and take comfort in the assertion that it's not run the way you portray it as being run. Its a £Billion+ organisation and football management is a professional occupation with Van Gaal earning more in a year than you'll earn in your lifetime.
The extent of his research was more that two games four years ago. He knows how we played last year and watched some of the games. He's not completely incompetent.
Before you called me embarrassing, try to use a better evidence because it's so embarrassing if you only try to take a guess what LVG said.
Alright, just believe with what you think it's right. Because I don't wanna waste my time too long with you.
I think we should leave this because it's blatantly clear that we are not getting anywhere.
You seem genuinely incapable of listening and taking on board what people say. It's everything that's wrong with the Caf recently. You aren't discussing things, you're a child sticking your fingers in your ears and scratching around for any semblance of a point with which to advance your view.
As for evidence - listen to his damn interviews. He does it all the time. All the time for crying out loud. Even a slight knowledge on this topic would disprove what you're saying. And for the fifth time - it is not just United, I can't make this any more clear yet you never take it on board. Van Gaal has consistently used these terms for a host of different teams over long period of time.. Barcelona, Munich, Holland, United.
And once again you're severely underestimating Van Gaal and more importantly demonstrating a gross misunderstanding on how an organisation like this is run. He absolutely is not making his assessments and basing his views solely on games from four years ago. It's completely absurd, negligent, not fit for purpose.. And would be incompetent. He knows what system we played last year. It is far, far below the absolute minimum someone in his position should know.
Yes I'm done with you.
I've given you the evidence, you choose not to read it or you are not capable of understanding it.
This forum is a nice place, we like helping people so we can help you overcome your problems too, persistence is important my friend so please try again.
http://www.ncsoccer.org/docs/education/coaches/u19_objective_creates_exercise.pdf
Read it and understand 4-3-3 with the point forward differs from 4-3-3 with the point backwards. They are not the same thing, the former utilises a more typical number 10 and then read the text where Louis van Gaal says it is up to the coach whether he functions as a second striker etc.
You say Louis van Gaal plays three midfielders and they play their role more central but actually when Louis van Gaal says this in that PDF:
So when Louis van Gaal says this it shows how advanced the number 10 is. I know you have difficulty processing this so take the time to learn the difference between a central midfielder and a second striker, primary school students won't have difficulty understanding the difference between a second striker and central midfielder so perhaps you are yet to progress to that level, this is ok just keep trying and you will get there.
Always remember a turtle might move slowly but he gets there in the end and you will too!
LvG moved to a 4-2-3-1 against Swansea.
I really hope we get a winger(Di Maria will be great) and play a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3
Rooney can be a narrow Left forward. With Shaw providing the width on that side.
I really hope we get a winger(Di Maria will be great) and play a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3
Rooney can be a narrow Left forward. With Shaw providing the width on that side.
I think the 3-5-2 is going to work really nicely away in the league and the cup games, it's a formation that is designed to be steady and controlling while solid at the back.
At home though its a little easy to pin down centrally, Swansea just showed us wide and allowed the centre backs to have all the ball. I do feel that width will be required against teams like that. There is no harm being good in 2 different formations.
3-5-2 against the top sides, and when at home against the minnows go 4-4-2 with overlapping fullbacks.
At home though its a little easy to pin down centrally, Swansea just showed us wide and allowed the centre backs to have all the ball. I do feel that width will be required against teams like that. There is no harm being good in 2 different formations.
3-5-2 against the top sides, and when at home against the minnows go 4-4-2 with overlapping fullbacks.
The only problem is we don't have really have 2 top quality wingers which are needed to create in that system I feel. I thought the idea behind the 3-5-2 would allow us not to reply on the wide areas (but could stretch the play and create space) but instead play through the middle with the likes of Mata, Rooney and RvP. Unfortunately that didn't seem to be the
I also found it interesting that LvG said we don't have top quality wingers for the 'specialist' position but I feel a wing back is also a specialist position and yet we played Lingard and Young there. Injuries probably played a part to be fair mind.
Valencia and Januzaj can do a job good enough. We've seen that Rafael and Valencia can have a good partnership down 1 side, and I feel Januzaj and Shaw could work nicely on the other. Obviously things are not ideal, but if worked upon properly, width and quick passing is the only way to open a stubborn defence apart from going route 1.
Curious what everyone's thought of our players (signed as of right now) and where they would play in this formation if all were healthy?
De Gea
Jones -- Evans -- Rojo
Rafael ----------------- Shaw
Herrera -- Carrick
Mata
van Persie -- Rooney
Jones -- Evans -- Rojo
Rafael ----------------- Shaw
Herrera -- Carrick
Mata
van Persie -- Rooney
possibly the strongest formation we can line-up but Id drop Rooney for Januzaj/Welbeck
pretty much.
having some actual defenders as the wingbacks will go a long way to helping us out defensively. Young and Lingard are just not wingbacks. a formation that was meant to help us defensively actually made us worse when you have these converted wingers trying to do defensive work.
perhaps once the players are used to the formation and things are clicking, and perhaps once we have a more sold defensive midfielder (i.e. Strootman) in place, can we then play with a bit more attack on the wings, against the easier teams.
I think Rooney has been quite lethal lately, for me I would drop Mata and Kagawa and try out Januzaj in the hole. Add a bit of pace and trickery there which we are missing. It also allows him and Rooney to switch throughout the match.
WHat stinks is that if this team had lined up against Swansea Saturday, I don't think it would have even been a contest.
You add in Strootman instead of Carrick and we have one of the best teams in the league.
Don't troll!! It's not good. You don't even understand what I just said and I doubt you even read it.
And I thought I already told you, I read the point forwards, and I still can't find the number 10 role word at all. And instead you told me to look at the diagram. And I said number 10 on the diagram doesn't mean it plays as a number 10 role.
I already said one of the midfield can go deeper like Alonso did while the other midfield can go a bit more advanced like what Kroos did. Which the same thing like what I just said in the pdf 2 things point backward or forward.
My point is number 10 role always stay closer to the striker more than the midfield. And drop deeper to ask the midfield for the ball if he needs to.
While the 433 centre mid even the one with point forward, the advanced centre midfield is closer to the midfield more than the striker. And move forward to support the striker.
Second striker is even different than what you think. Second striker always play next to the finisher. But will drop deeper to get the ball easier.
Just figured I'd say you're obviously in the right here, JMSHE is being extremely awkward. I share your bewilderment and frustration.
I'm guessing you are agree with him about LVG has used the term 4-3-3 to describe a 4-2-3-1 since in press conference he has said that this United side is used to playing 4-3-3. Not so sure if he just take a guess what LVG said or LVG is wrong here.
I'm trolling? That's a good one, you just said Louis van Gaal is wrong in your response to Rowem.
This is laughable, you can't find it? I've quoted it, let me quote it again:
I mean if that isn't obvious that his number 10 is not a central midfielder then may god help you.
You didn't even know what we are talking about LVG. Theon talked about LVG's press conference where he said we used to play with 433. Which is wrong right? since most of the time we used 442 or 4411.
I thought I already told you before, "number 10" means nothing but a number. LVG isn't referring it as number 10 role. He's referring the number 10 on the diagram.
If we were prepared to drop one of Rooney/Van Persie, I doubt we'd even be using this system though.
He calls it the 1-4-3-3 with the point forward.
I also think Theon is correct here. LvG just refers to the 4-2-3-1 system he used at Bayern as a 4-3-3. In the Dutch pre-World Cup interview, van Gaal also states his three man midfield points up; he doesn't play with two players 'stirring the pot'. One DM, one #8/B2B, and one attacking, creative midfielder/#10. That can explain why he sees the the '3' in a 4-3-3 as the same as in a 4-2-3-1.
Exactly someone posted an indepth tactical interview with van Gaal a few pages back where it was pretty much shown that the formation he calls a "1-4-3-3 with the point forward" is what most people would refer to as a 4-2-3-1.
The 4231, the wide players supposed to drop deeper than the 433. It doesn't make any sense to me why he's trying to referring as the same. And they aren't exactly wingers too. I did heard before world cup about his interview about Bayern system. But I think he uses 433 as his main system. But also he changed his formation 4231 in some of games.
Since more people think so then alright. @Theon
Louis van Gaal said SAF has played 4-3-3 too with Manchester United, he was just emphasising it is the best formation in his view.
You said the 10 in Louis van Gaal's preferred 4-3-3 system is a central midfielder so I showed you evidence actually he is either a central attacking midfielder or second striker. Why is this so difficult for you to actually understand?
Everybody in this thread has told you that you are wrong and even Louis van Gaal has told you that you are wrong but yet you insist you are right. You need to stop living on cloud cuckoo land.
You might need to read it again. I was the one who told Theon that LVG is referring that SAF played 433 with us and SAF did 433 against LVG Bayern. Theon thought he was referring 4231.
No, you needlessly wasted our time.
But what's done is done, at least it's over. Now let's never talk to each other again, I wish you well in life.