at the reaction to a meaningless pre-season friendly, in which he were one of our better players in the first half.
2 seasons in, 28 years old and barely anything good from it.
Smashley Young
- Thread starter Red Defence
- Start date
2 seasons in, 28 years old and barely anything good from it.
Are you a bit special?
I'm saying that the reaction in the thread isn't based on a meaningless friendly like you said, he's been here for two years - posters are basing their comments on that.
It would make absolutely no sense to sell Young now. In his first season he proved his worth as a good member of our squad. We'd not get enough of money for him for a sale to be tempting, as we would probably need to replace him in the squad with another winger.
And our priorities in the transfers department lies in the midfield conoundrum. Not in flogging off Young.
And our priorities in the transfers department lies in the midfield conoundrum. Not in flogging off Young.
Young is a good squad player. We've had players like him for years and they have all contributed to our success. There's no point in selling him at this stage.
If you can't see how he is being a bottleneck in the build up play then I request you to watch all the goals that Lingard has scored just these past few games and compare that with Young's movement off the ball and involvement. It's quite obvious really and Lingard is just a kid who is stepping up from reserves.
That was enlightening. Thank you sir.
Well has Young been a good signing?
I don't know? Has he?..
If we sold Rooney we would probably need to get a winger in anyway, if Kagawa takes Rooney's spot then that leaves us light on the wings considering how poor our wingers were last season. Young would need to play loads of games on the left if it's just him and Nani as first teamers competing for that spot.
Obviously the priority rests with centre mid, but after that the most pressing need in the team is a top tier winger.
Disagree on it not being for value either, he is on a 5 year contract at around £130,000 per week (according to the papers), so with three years left than is £20million we're paying him.. He's not close to justifying that wage. If we shifted him for £8-10million then that would free up £30m across the next three years to reinvest more wisely, maybe in a replacement.
Zaha can play as a left winger as well as Welbeck, Kagawa and Giggs. We've got a lot of options, and if Young is deemed to be the best of them at any given time by Moyes, he'll have done well.
I'm hopeful we'll see the good old Tony V this season, and I'm hopeful Nani can recapture some of his best form. No way will all three of Nani, Valencia and Young enjoy as horrible seasons as the last time around.
I think Zaha is more of a right winger, though I am no expert on him. If I watched his highlights at Palace he always seemed to be on the right, so I put him down as being competing with Valencia for the RW spot
Giggs is a fair shout though and I could see Kagawa getting played there when Moyes wants to play Welbeck or Chich, but I don't think Danny will be out on the left too much himself this season.
When I think about it, the problem isn't even really the numbers but the quality. When you have versatile players like Welbeck then you always have 'options' in a certain position, but he's not a natural or top class winger. Basically I just don't think our options out wide are as great as they normally are, and that Young for me is the one I wouldn't mind selling to bring in a better replacement - he's on a huge wage, 28 year old so won't improve, the worst of the Val/Nani/Young etc.
Nani and Valencia have proven to be great wingers IMO and I agree with you they won't have a season like last year again. If we could get one more of that calibre (which Young isn't) then that would be great, it would allow us to introduce Zaha and move Kagawa infield whislt still posing a threat out wide.
Giggs is a fair shout though and I could see Kagawa getting played there when Moyes wants to play Welbeck or Chich, but I don't think Danny will be out on the left too much himself this season.
When I think about it, the problem isn't even really the numbers but the quality. When you have versatile players like Welbeck then you always have 'options' in a certain position, but he's not a natural or top class winger. Basically I just don't think our options out wide are as great as they normally are, and that Young for me is the one I wouldn't mind selling to bring in a better replacement - he's on a huge wage, 28 year old so won't improve, the worst of the Val/Nani/Young etc.
Nani and Valencia have proven to be great wingers IMO and I agree with you they won't have a season like last year again. If we could get one more of that calibre (which Young isn't) then that would be great, it would allow us to introduce Zaha and move Kagawa infield whislt still posing a threat out wide.
As I see it:
First choice when in form: Valencia and Nani.
Backups: Zaha, Young.
Other options depending on form, fitness and tactical solutions: Kagawa, Welbeck, Giggs.
Then you've got players like Rooney able to put in a shift. Behind him you've got players like Januzaj and Lingard.
IMO that's as good options on the wing as any team have, both in numbers and in quality. I think Young is a depandable winger who works hard, has good delivery and is a clever passer. We can count on him in the big matches.
First choice when in form: Valencia and Nani.
Backups: Zaha, Young.
Other options depending on form, fitness and tactical solutions: Kagawa, Welbeck, Giggs.
Then you've got players like Rooney able to put in a shift. Behind him you've got players like Januzaj and Lingard.
IMO that's as good options on the wing as any team have, both in numbers and in quality. I think Young is a depandable winger who works hard, has good delivery and is a clever passer. We can count on him in the big matches.
Zaha played a lot on the left last year, with Bolasie starting on the right but they did swap wings throughout the games. He is very comfortable on either side.
It's funny to see people being satisfied with Ashley Young being a back up because he seems a hard working player.
We have one of the best acadamies in the country and we will have no problem filling up the squad. Last thing we need is a player whom we signed for over 15 million during last years of a contract and who is seemingly earning a lot every week to be satisfied with himself being a backup and our fans accepting it as a fact.
It does not makes financial sense and only encourages mediocrity. We are not talking about someone like Park or O'shea or Silvestere here. He is easily replaceable with a talent who is a lot less younger with a lot more potential even if not it will atleast free up space for the lads waiting in the line in the reserves.
We have one of the best acadamies in the country and we will have no problem filling up the squad. Last thing we need is a player whom we signed for over 15 million during last years of a contract and who is seemingly earning a lot every week to be satisfied with himself being a backup and our fans accepting it as a fact.
It does not makes financial sense and only encourages mediocrity. We are not talking about someone like Park or O'shea or Silvestere here. He is easily replaceable with a talent who is a lot less younger with a lot more potential even if not it will atleast free up space for the lads waiting in the line in the reserves.
Young will be challenging Nani and Zaha for the left wing position in the coming season (with those pair also challenging Valencia on the right). Those who think Young is nothing but a backup player will soon be forced to change their tune. He's an important first team squad member.
We've essentially got four wingers who all cost the club around about the same in transfer fees (£15m-18m). I don't see how that isn't economically viable or why Ashley Young is being singled out in particular.
Because Valencia and Nani are better players than him who were bought when younger (and didn't have a year left on their contract) and have achieved more at the club? Because Zaha is only 20 (and cost £10m by the way) and it's pointless judging him?
Either way, that's an odd stance to take, "they cost the same so let's treat them the same."
Yeah, why not treat them the same?
Honestly, the four of them are pretty much on equal footing right now with the wings up for grabs; they all have the potential to impress Moyes, they all have their pros and cons and if you think Young is out of the running by default then personally I just think you're wrong. Same with Zaha; he's only 20 years of age but there's nothing stopping him going on to be our best winger next season, he's certainly not lacking in talent or confidence. Good luck to all four of them I say, I'll judge them as equals over the next nine months or so.
That's a very biased thing to say. Leaving aside Zaha who is only a young player who has years ahead of him to reach his potential, would you say Young has contributed as much to the team as the other two ?
Are you comfortable with a player who in peak of his career struggles to cement a place in first team to cost the club the same as one who was voted player of the season and one who clearly falls among the best players in the league when on form ?
I'm not at all biased towards Ashley Young; I really like every one of our wingers.
Yeah I'm comfortable with Young's position in the team. He's suffered an awful twelve months of injuries but I'm confident he'll make his doubters eat their words in the coming season.
I don't think that's the case. What I disagree with is the idea that they should all be judged as equals based purely on their cost. There's far more to it than that, past achievements, ability as footballers.
Anyone who knows anything will see that Nani and Valencia are quite clearly better footballers than Young is. They may be on level footing right now but I'm pretty sure that will shine through as the season goes on (if Nani is still here).
One thing I've always hated about him (the diving not included) is how weak he's on the ball. I mean a shoulder from almost anyone can make him lose the ball.
I'm not judging them based purely on their cost
My reference to their cost was in direct response to somebody else trying to judge Young by his cost; I'm simply pointing out that they all cost around about the same and are currently on equal footing in regards to their position in the squad.
You can look back to Nani and Valencia in their prime and say they were great footballers, but they've not been in their prime for the while now and have it all too prove again as far as I'm concerned. Young and Zaha also, they're certainly quite capable of being our best two wingers in the coming season; I don't think there's anything to suggest that Young isn't capable of producing they goods for United if he can stay fit or that Zaha isn't fully prepared for the step up.
Why should we judge Nani and Valencia by their prime form but not grant Ashley Young the same benefit? When on top of their games there's very little daylight between the three of them; admittedly Young's top form has been demonstrated only briefly for us, but nevertheless it certainly exists and impresses.
This is key and it's a huge hindrance. It can suck the life and drive out of the left hand side of our team having him there. I would love to see him improve and become an important first team player, but at no point has he shown himself to be on the same level as Valencia or Nani. Not even close.
I'm not judging them based purely on their cost
My reference to their cost was in direct response to somebody else trying to judge Young by his cost; I'm simply pointing out that they all cost around about the same and are currently on equal footing in regards to their position in the squad.
You can look back to Nani and Valencia in their prime and say they were great footballers, but they've not been in their prime for the while now and have it all too prove again as far as I'm concerned. Young and Zaha also, they're certainly quite capable of being our best two wingers in the coming season; I don't think there's anything to suggest that Young isn't capable of producing they goods for United if he can stay fit or that Zaha isn't fully prepared for the step up.
Why should we judge Nani and Valencia by their prime form but not grant Ashley Young the same benefit? When on top of their games there's very little daylight between the three of them; admittedly Young's top form has been demonstrated only briefly for us, but nevertheless it certainly exists and impresses.
They do have it all to prove, I'm not disputing that, both are off the back of disappointing seasons but the fact is that in their prime there's a world of difference between them and Young, hence I expect that if they do get back to their best for us, it'll be a no contest. I think the bolded part is crazy really, there's such a big gulf in quality.
At their best, Nani and Valencia are among the best players in the league. Young not so much even if he can be good.
I don't understand what Nani and Valencia are supposedly able to offer when in their prime which Ashley Young in his prime cannot.
Young movement is simple, its either try to control the ball with his back to goal if he achieves that without falling over he will then do a spin and run towards the touchline. He hasnt the greatest movement, he has decent delivery, he cant beat his man for pace or strength, he cant dribble, he has an average shot. Yet we plonked £18m on him. A ridiculous amount for a decent albeit underwhelming footballer. Even Walcott has more to his game than Young.
In 10/11 most of our attacking play went through Nani for a lot of games, likewise for Valencia in the second half of 11/12. I've never seen Ashley Young at the forefront of our attack like either of them. He may be good for goals/assists (sometimes, but Brwned did sort of destroy you on that whole argument a while back) but he's never, ever influenced our play like the two of them have.
They've been here a lot longer and he's suffered injury after injury in the two years since we signed him. It doesn't mean he isn't capable. I think he quite clearly is capable of being the dangerman when fit.
I dint know to what you're referring with Brwned.
Typical of how underestimated he is on here.
You said what do Val and nani have over him in his prime and they both have those skills over Young. You are about as deluded as they come cider when it comes to Young. The only criminal under rating on this forum is of Carrick.
That busted comment wasn't in relation to Brwned's post!
What Brwned neglects to mention is that Young picked up a knock at the end of September 2011 which later manifested itself as his persistent ankle injury which he's plagued him for nearly two years now.
If Young continues to struggle for fitness as he has done then no doubt it will affect his performance; like Saha, Hargreaves and currently Anderson, he needs to get fit to stand a chance and if he cannot that'll be the end of him as a United player. That doesn't equate to him not being a good enough player when fit though. When fit he's every bit as capable of producing the goods as our other winger are.
What Brwned neglects to mention is that Young picked up a knock at the end of September 2011 which later manifested itself as his persistent ankle injury which he's plagued him for nearly two years now.
If Young continues to struggle for fitness as he has done then no doubt it will affect his performance; like Saha, Hargreaves and currently Anderson, he needs to get fit to stand a chance and if he cannot that'll be the end of him as a United player. That doesn't equate to him not being a good enough player when fit though. When fit he's every bit as capable of producing the goods as our other winger are.
it may as well have been, you couldn't muster a response to it anyway.
I went out to get drunk IIRC.
I'm not judging them based purely on their cost
My reference to their cost was in direct response to somebody else trying to judge Young by his cost; I'm simply pointing out that they all cost around about the same and are currently on equal footing in regards to their position in the squad.
You can look back to Nani and Valencia in their prime and say they were great footballers, but they've not been in their prime for the while now and have it all too prove again as far as I'm concerned. Young and Zaha also, they're certainly quite capable of being our best two wingers in the coming season; I don't think there's anything to suggest that Young isn't capable of producing they goods for United if he can stay fit or that Zaha isn't fully prepared for the step up.
Why should we judge Nani and Valencia by their prime form but not grant Ashley Young the same benefit? When on top of their games there's very little daylight between the three of them; admittedly Young's top form has been demonstrated only briefly for us, but nevertheless it certainly exists and impresses.
Difficult to agree with this. Nani and Valencia have at varying points put in season's worth of performances that have put them up there with the very best wingers in Europe. Nani may even have been the best briefly given that Messi at this point had made his move into more central areas. Both players were far more threatening with their dribbling than Young has ever been, more creative in general (without just statistics, this can be seen in the threat of short passing, off the ball movement, dribbling, speed of countering, etc), more likely to start moves deep in their own half and better at linking up with others around them. They were the driving force of the team at the time basically, and the players we'd look to if we were struggling. At no point in Young's career has he ever been this standard of footballer, and at no point has he put in a performance of the quality of some of Nani or Valencia's best. There was one performance against Everton for Villa a fair few years back that was sort of getting there, but with Nani and Valencia we're talking about 9 and 10 out of 10 performances. This is the thing; this isn't something that's just being based on what he's been like for United - he was virtually unbreakable at Aston Villa and never looked top class. I'm sure it happened, but I can't ever remember him missing a game for Villa. He may have improved here with better injury luck, but then again he may just have been exposed like many other decent midtable players do when they make the step up (Barry, Milner, Henderson, etc...).
Regardless, it can become a bit complicated using such a small percentage of games in evidence when trying to compare players. Every player can have top performances, and I think everyone must accept by now that nearly all footballers are considerably better, more skilful and able than how they seem to be amidst the pressure of top level football. Given this, consistency itself probably becomes a better mark of ability rather than a top level that is very rarely reached. You could pick out so many individual performances from players over the years and say that this level of performance indicates there is little between them and another player on their day, but it becomes somewhat irrelevant ultimately. Brown has genuinely put in some of the best defensive performances I've seen for example - far better than any equivalent performances from Ashley Young - yet using those performances in a comparison with Javier Zanetti or Cafu wouldn't really tell the full story. It's the same premise with Young; occasionally he has reached the 8/10 standard of performance, but it's a jump from that to assume he's capable of becoming an 8/10 winger. Valencia and Nani on the other have already been that player, whilst never actually having the sort of luck with injury that Ashley Young had at Villa.
I think the comparisons up there with Anderson and Saha are good ones to make. They have both had quite ridiculous misfortune with injury throughout their career, but their talent has stood out far more amongst these injuries than Ashley Young's. Anderson has put in absolutely outstanding performances against Chelsea and Arsenal for example (again, almost as good as it gets), where as Saha grasped the 12 month spell he was fit and, alongside Didier Drogba, became the top striker in the league.
You were going great there til you mentioned Anderson KE7.
I must admit that I no longer hold hope for Anderson, but it's fair to say that we've seen the top class player in him already in strings of games, which is why so many of us have been strung along all these years thinking he might just get there. I draw the comparison because he has put in the sort of performances which would make you think it could've been very different had he not been injured so much, where as with Young it's not only unclear, but also unlikely in my opinion given his fitness with Aston Villa. The difference also is in his age and the sort of impact he had on games. That being said, the better comparison is obviously Saha.
Still maintain that Anderson's performance against Arsenal in the FA Cup is one of the best performances I've seen live. I've seen some bloody good ones too.
