Smashley Young

Cina said:
Not "rate" as a footballer, I meant it towards judging his overall contribution here vs what he cost us. I think that's pretty standard when it comes to footballers, isn't it?
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I think his first season was good and had he stayed injury free I think his second would've been as well.

Had our club been in severe financial trouble I would've been upset about the price I guess. But giving we're a pretty well run business I really can't be bothered too much about a £20M signing or whatever the price thrown around is, unless it's quite clearly a completely stupid signing in terms of what the player can contribute (e.g. Carroll to Liverpool, Torres to Chelsea).
 
MoneyMay said:
:lol: No, it doesn't - especially if this winger you speak about is "quality" and "excellent". You're pushing your perception further, but it's already been exposed by the fact he's played more than you alluded to. He did well last season, but it was nothing special and he need to improve certain aspects of his skill set to make more fans praise him.
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'Excellent when fully fit' I believe is what I said. If you think a player fully fit immediately after returning from a serious injury then you're dreaming and I'd question how much football you've watched in your lifetime and how closely you've paid attention to it.

Obviously Young's ability to achieve and maintain full fitness is an issue. I don't think I could have been more clear on that.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
'Excellent when fully fit' I believe is what I said.

Obviously his ability to achieve and maintain full fitness is an issue. I don't think I could have been more clear on that.
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Ok, Young is an excellent winger when fully fit. You have converted my opinion...
 
The point is Cider no-one else considers him excellent in any form no matter what the circumstances. I reckon most people would say he wasn't even that when he was the key man for Villa. His injuries obviously haven't helped him establish himself here properly but they aren't what's preventing people from sharing that opinion on him. I think most consider him a good player, if he'd been fully fit and in form throughout both seasons then he'd probably be considered a very good player and one that's well capable of starting every week for us (in the way Valencia was). At the end of the day though he's never looked as good as Nani did in 10/11 and throughout his time here he's generally been performed worse than Nani. That has nothing to do with injuries preventing him from reaching top form because he's actually played more in the league in the past two years than Nani and they've both struggled to play at their best because of a variety of injuries.
 
Brwned said:
The point is Cider no-one else considers him excellent in any form no matter what the circumstances. I reckon most people would say he wasn't even that when he was the key man for Villa.
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I'm not talking from general consensus or attempting to reiterate popular opinion here. My point is that many of you are blind to the facts about Young; as you can imagine then it's not unfeasible that many are yet to accept the truth as I present it to you.
 
Might be a bit harsh, but I think he's shite. For £18m and a wage that is widely reported to be around £90k a week he's not good enough. He has no confidence to take on a man and I think his end product is just as inconsistent as Nani's and Valencia, which means that he doesn't really offer us anything different to what we have, and is just a squad player. He might be a decent option, but not for the money he cost. I reckon we could've done a lot better.
 
Maagge said:
I think his first season was good and had he stayed injury free I think his second would've been as well.

Had our club been in severe financial trouble I would've been upset about the price I guess. But giving we're a pretty well run business I really can't be bothered too much about a £20M signing or whatever the price thrown around is, unless it's quite clearly a completely stupid signing in terms of what the player can contribute (e.g. Carroll to Liverpool, Torres to Chelsea).
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The top paragraph may well be true.

Anyway, I just agreed with what Brwned said, which he himself said wasn't really a fair basis for judging Young, but as fans we can't really help ourselves can we? It's very difficult to get the cost, the length he had on his contract with Villa, and his supposed wages out of your head when judging him as a footballer. Is it fair to do? Probably not, because he's not the one responsible for it, but I did find it a quite bizarre signing at the time and nothing has really swayed me on that since. He's certainly a good footballer when fit but I would just expect more when a club like ours spends fees like that on players.
 
Baxter said:
Might be a bit harsh, but I think he's shite. For £18m and a wage that is widely reported to be around £90k a week he's not good enough. He has no confidence to take on a man and I think his end product is just as inconsistent as Nani's and Valencia, which means that he doesn't really offer us anything different to what we have, and is just a squad player. He might be a decent option, but not for the money he cost. I reckon we could've done a lot better.
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At least

Most I've read have it around £120k-130k :eek:
 
No one questions whether Young is a good enough to be a squad man. He's good enough to come on in the second half for a tired or poorly performing Nani or Valencia and get in the occasional start.

What statistics can't lie about is his his inordinate frequency of failing to beat his marker and pulling the ball back for a short pass to Evra. If he's ever going to justify the high praise some here insist on giving him he's got to be braver and beat his defender more often.

Squad man, check. Better than Nani and Valencia in what we know has been their top form, no chance.
 
Nani thread

MoneyMay said:
In 10/11, he was our most consistent attacker, and finished the season with 10 goals and 18 assists. In 11/12, he finished the season off with 10 goals and 17 assists....
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Young thread

MoneyMay said:
People can keep convincing themselves he's a quality winger by using stats - it's very entertaining and highlights their agenda perfectly.
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ciderman9000000 said:
I'm not talking from general consensus or attempting to reiterate popular opinion here. My point is that many of you are blind to the facts about Young; as you can imagine then it's not unfeasible that many are yet to accept the truth as I demonstrate it for you.
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Facts like what, exactly? Like these?

When Young has managed periods of full fitness for United he's been excellent for us, creating and scoring goals at a rate that would easily put him amongst the top wingers in the league. Unfortunately he's only enjoyed three such periods of full fitness since his transfer from Aston Villa (August 2011 - September 2011, February 2012 - May 2012 and December 2012).
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They're oddly manipulative interpretations of facts, I'd say. It seems to me you're mentioning up until September in his first season just because it suits your argument. He played in 13 of the first 16 league games right up until the 21st of December and was on the bench for another. Did he miss those two games because of injury? If so, is that really an excuse? Very few wingers have seasons where they go without niggly injuries for a game or two here and there. Using stuff like his long-term injuries is completely reasonable. I don't think missing a couple of games is quite the same. He then went on to play 15 of the last 19 games after coming back from injury. You can argue that he wasn't fully fit then, sure, but he got 2 goals and 2 assists in his first four games back from injury, it's the 11 games after that where he managed just two goals (and little else in open play) that people are judging him on. I can't really be arsed looking into the other periods you're talking about but I'll take it as a given that you've been just a little misleading in your presentation of these "facts".
 
Cina said:
The top paragraph may well be true.

Anyway, I just agreed with what Brwned said, which he himself said wasn't really a fair basis for judging Young, but as fans we can't really help ourselves can we? It's very difficult to get the cost, the length he had on his contract with Villa, and his supposed wages out of your head when judging him as a footballer. Is it fair to do? Probably not, because he's not the one responsible for it, but I did find it a quite bizarre signing at the time and nothing has really swayed me on that since. He's certainly a good footballer when fit but I would just expect more when a club like ours spends fees like that on players.
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And that's what got me involved in this, the fact you both basically admitted to it being irrational reasons for disliking (or whatever you want to call it) Young.
 
Ruud10 said:
No one questions whether Young is a good enough to be a squad man. He's good enough to come on in the second half for a tired or poorly performing Nani or Valencia and get in the occasional start.

What statistics can't lie about is his his inordinate frequency of failing to beat his marker and pulling the ball back for a short pass to Evra. If he's ever going to justify the high praise some here insist on giving him he's got to be braver and beat his defender more often.

Squad man, check. Better than Nani and Valencia in what we know has been their top form, no chance.
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Pretty much this, yes. He looks a bit too timid a little too often. Matter of confidence, of course, as always. He has the ability to challenge more directly, as he has shown in glimpses, so it's not that.

The terms being used here vary to an amusing degree, by the way. I wouldn't call him an "excellent" player myself, but everything is relative. It isn't outlandish, I think, to claim that he is excellent when on song - though you could say that about most players who are good enough to be in our squad. Someone above, however, denied that he is a "quality" player, but maintained at the same time that he is a good one - which to me is as contradictory as it gets.
 
Stickles said:
Nani thread



Young thread
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Oh, silly me. I actually mention performances and stats together, providing a good argument, whereas you decide to take stats and compare Young, Nani, and Valencia and formulate such a great opinion, without actually taking the skill set and abilities of said wingers into full consideration.
 
Brwned said:
Facts like what, exactly? Like these?



They're oddly manipulative interpretations of facts, I'd say. It seems to me you're mentioning up until September in his first season just because it suits your argument. He played in 13 of the first 16 league games right up until the 21st of December and was on the bench for another. Did he miss those two games because of injury? If so, is that really an excuse? Very few wingers have seasons where they go without niggly injuries for a game or two here and there. Using stuff like his long-term injuries is completely reasonable. I don't think missing a couple of games is quite the same. He then went on to play 15 of the last 19 games after coming back from injury. You can argue that he wasn't fully fit then, sure, but he got 2 goals and 2 assists in his first four games back from injury, it's the 11 games after that where he managed just two goals (and little else in open play) that people are judging him on. I can't really be arsed looking into the other periods you're talking about but I'll take it as a given that you've been just a little misleading in your presentation of these "facts".
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That's exactly what he's been doing, but it doesn't even matter because it's a waste of time.
 
Maagge said:
And that's what got me involved in this, the fact you both basically admitted to it being irrational reasons for disliking (or whatever you want to call it) Young.
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Is there something wrong with having an irrational dislike for players? Should we be rational about every single aspect about football?
 
MoneyMay said:
Oh, silly me. I actually mention performances and stats together, providing a good argument, whereas you decide to take stats and compare Young, Nani, and Valencia and formulate such a great opinion, without actually taking the skill set and abilities of said wingers into full consideration.
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Not at all, it's just that you can go to the Nani thread and see no end of arguments for his worth using assists and goals and indeed no end of people saying that judging him on last season isn't fair because of injuries.

Somehow in the Young thread that turns to people insisting the same statistics are meaningless and citing his injury problems is just a convenient excuse. Just an interesting juxtaposition.
 
Brwned said:
Is there something wrong with having an irrational dislike for players? Should we be rational about every single aspect about football?
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It does look like that's what I'm saying, doesn't it?
Well, I just don't get it when it's about our own players. Players already at the club, who just want to do as good a job as possible. I at least can't hold their wages (or a two year old transfer fee) against them.
 
Stickles said:
Not at all, it's just that you can go to the Nani thread and see no end of arguments for his worth using assists and goals and indeed no end of people saying that judging him on last season isn't fair because of injuries.

Somehow in the Young thread that turns to people insisting the same statistics are meaningless and citing his injury problems is just a convenient excuse. Just an interesting juxtaposition.
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Yes others have done that, but I haven't. I find it absurd and futile to compare stats of one player to another for the sole purpose of formulating an opinion like this: player x is better than player y because he has more goals/assists. There's a reason why Nani is appreciated more than Young and that has to do with his current skill set. Ability goes a long, long way (as does mentality) in winning fans over.
 
Stickles said:
Not at all, it's just that you can go to the Nani thread and see no end of arguments for his worth using assists and goals and indeed no end of people saying that judging him on last season isn't fair because of injuries.

Somehow in the Young thread that turns to people insisting the same statistics are meaningless and citing his injury problems is just a convenient excuse. Just an interesting juxtaposition.
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You know, for once in this forum, I agree with you. It's easy enough to do it in the Nani thread with stats comparison, but is deemed obsolete when you come here.

There's so much here to agree and disagree with this thread so I thought I'd just place my opinion onto the latest post
 
You seem to be ignoring the context involved in both arguments. People are saying that injuries are a valid excuse for Nani because we've already seen that he's capable of being one of our best players when fully fit. He's also shown that he can be a very influential player in attack even when he's not producing goals or assists. Young has neither going for him, he just has those stats and those excuses on their own with nothing supporting them. You've already established that build-up play is something that you don't appreciate and/or care for in the slightest in the Welbeck thread though, so that's basically why your opinions are at odds with the majority. Your perception of technique and build-up play and/or the importance of them are distinctly different to most others', that's never going to change, that's why you don't understand how people can have such wildly differing views based on the same "evidence".
 
I don't get all the dislike for Young, I think that he's a terrific squad player to have. Productive as well.
 
Brwned said:
Is there something wrong with having an irrational dislike for players? Should we be rational about every single aspect about football?
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Absolutely not. Being a fan is deeply irrational to begin with.

Stating that you don't really like a player, for whatever reason or non-reason, is as fair as it gets. Some fans take the rational approach so far that they'd welcome Suarez to Old Trafford: He's a top player, after all.

What I find somewhat harder to swallow is when someone tries to rationalize their dislike of a player, often by using criteria which the same person gladly uses to defend and praise other players. And that wasn't directed at anyone in this thread - it's just a general observation.
 
SirAF said:
I don't get all the dislike for Young, I think that he's a terrific squad player to have. Productive as well.
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I think some of the frustration partly stems from the fact that he is not really used as a squad player when fit. That's not his fault obviously, but it will have some bearing on how he is perceived in terms of what is expected.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Absolutely not. Being a fan is deeply irrational to begin with.

Stating that you don't really like a player, for whatever reason or non-reason, is as fair as it gets. Some fans take the rational approach so far that they'd welcome Suarez to Old Trafford: He's a top player, after all.

What I find somewhat harder to swallow is when someone tries to rationalize their dislike of a player, often by using criteria which the same person gladly uses to defend and praise other players. And that wasn't directed at anyone in this thread - it's just a general observation.
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I do agree with that. As long as people acknowledge that their irrational dislike of a player is one of the reasons they find it so easy to criticise a player than there's no issue, but that's not always the case.
 
Young is good enough to be a back up in our squad. I think he is at the same level as Valencia and he is English, so I see no reason to sell him or even try to better on a player that is a third option.
 
Fully fit or not he's a 1 in 5 player. He'll have 1 really good game for every 4 poor-mediocre ones.

He was exactly like this for Villa for 4 full seasons. People often think he was consistent at Aston Villa, they are probably obscured by the fact he usually scored around 8-10 and assisted around 10-15 a season. The fact that half of these came from him taking every single set piece in a team almost solely ]geared towards scoring from set pieces; and also many penalties gets forgotten. I remember being humoured by the posts when we signed him stating "we'll finally have a great set piece taker" and "we finally have a great corner taker". We've found out he's not particularly any of these things, it was merely a numbers game (like Gibson with his shooting).

Most of my friends are Villa fans (which is why I watched him very often) and they were very surprised that they got such a transfer fee for him, given his contract situation. He was never Villa's best player. He was behind the likes of Milner, Barry, Dunne, Petrov, Friedel, Collins in terms of importance to their team in his time there.

He'll always be a great backup winger, particularly if his 1 great game coincides with a tricky fixture, but he's an upper mid table winger.
 
ciderman9000000 said:
Yeah, feck his goalscoring and chance creation stats; he's never gonna score goals or create anything because he's shit!
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:lol:
MoneyMay said:
Because you take away facts. I see you have manipulate his injury to suit your argument, but no one has said anything different. It's a laughable excuse - take a look at this. In fact, I urge every member to take a look at that link. It shows how many minutes Young played.
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I'm looking at it.. Yeah, the dates. Yep.......... But it just seems you've galvanized his point that when Young has a good run of form that he generally is above an average player for us? I mean look at all those 7+ performance's when he's played 90 minutes and got a good head of steam up?

I mean they are your stats and all but I think you've gone and reiterated that his side of the argument stands up pretty well.. ?

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Oh shit, I forgot. Stats mean nothing... Carry on then.. I am going to the magical princess castle to watch football on candy cane television.
 
Cina said:
It's not a dive, he's just such a puff that even the slightest breeze knocks him over.
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That was a clear dive though. You can tell by the completely unnatural movement. Clear dive, and quite frankly embarassing.
 
He needs to go. I'm sick of watching him and his disgraceful fecking diving.
 
Tooni said:
If a decent offer comes up I see no reason why we should hold on to him.
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Ayee, I think we would need to bring someone else in though if we were to sell Young.

Especially if Rooney leaves that will leave us pretty light on the flanks if Kagawa moves into the number 10 role. So we would need Young as a squad player.

I would rather we sold him though and brought in someone else, he's not good enough
 
:lol: at the reaction to a meaningless pre-season friendly, in which he were one of our better players in the first half.
 
marjen said:
:lol: at the reaction to a meaningless pre-season friendly, in which he were one of our better players in the first half.
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Yeah that is what everyone is basing their opinion on, he has never dived before :rolleyes:
 
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