That happened out of delusion and idiocy in a team in complete disarray and clearly wasn't the best decision for the club at all. Van Gaal not only dropped him from the first team without a suitable replacement available, he forced him out of the club, so that we let him go on a free during the winterbreak. And the following weeks everything went from bad to worse. It was in no way a tough decision for the benefit of the team, it was mostly a personal one in between van Gaal's countless fights with players and club officials. I wouldn't use it as a positive example for van Gaal making tough decisions for the benefit of the team.
Should we change to a 4-3-3 if we get Di Maria?
- Thread starter DeMono
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
I think it does need to change and it does mean that Mata, Rooney and Van Persie won't play together that often but I think you have to do whats best for the team. They should be picked on merit and form or for tactical reasons. I believe LvG has the balls to do it things like this so lets hope he hasn't lost them on his way to Manchester.
If Di Maria does indeed sign then it does open up possibilities for a change in system so we can get away from the in my eyes restrictive/defensive 3-5-2.
As long as we don't see Di Maria as a wingback eh?
If Di Maria does indeed sign then it does open up possibilities for a change in system so we can get away from the in my eyes restrictive/defensive 3-5-2.
- De Gea -
- Rafa - Evans - Jones - Shaw
- Carrick -
- Herrera - Di Maria -
- Januzaj - Rooney/RvP - Welbeck
or
- De Gea -
- Rafa - Evans - Jones - Shaw
- Carrick - Herrera -
- Di Maria - Mata - Januzaj -
- Rooney/RvP -
This is without any other signings (other than Di Maria) so more players arriving could change the possibilities.- Rafa - Evans - Jones - Shaw
- Carrick -
- Herrera - Di Maria -
- Januzaj - Rooney/RvP - Welbeck
or
- De Gea -
- Rafa - Evans - Jones - Shaw
- Carrick - Herrera -
- Di Maria - Mata - Januzaj -
- Rooney/RvP -
As long as we don't see Di Maria as a wingback eh?
Whether it was good or not is neither here nor there. It shows that he's prepared to make such decisions.
The reason for those decisions is quite important though, don't you think? As long as van Persie and Rooney don't fall out with him behind the scenes, I doubt that he'll stop trying to build a team with both in it.
Not sure you can extrapolate one from the other there. You're saying he fell out with Van Bommell so dropped him - that doesn't mean he'll refuse to drop a player unless he falls out with him.
That's just my opinion, it's not drawn from the fact that van Bommel was dropped for different reasons.
If Rooney would play a holding CM and Fletcher down (or just switch him with an actual defender) it COULD work, but not very likely to be a success due to imbalance.There was a time when we actually had no midfielders, and now we have a flurry on No 10s.
Ogden says that we will change to a 4-3-3. Great.
I thought Gary Neville's version of the 3-5-2 on Monday Night Football was very interesting, especially given that he only sat down with Van Gaal last week and they clearly talked tactics from the photos.
In Gary's version Di Maria played as the left centre midfielder, like he did for Ancelotti last season, with Herrera as the right centre midfielder and Carrick holding. Mata was the #10, Van Persie the #9.
Wouldn't be shocked to see us go 4-3-3 but equally wouldn't be surprised if Gary's version of the 3-5-2 emerges in the near future.
It doesn't have to be fancy to look good:
--Rafael--Evans--Rojo---Shaw--
Di Maria--Carrick--Herrera---Mata
-------van Persie--Rooney------
Rooney-RVP can work alright if you just don't depend on either of them to be massively creative, which you don't with Di Maria, Herrera and Mata in the side.
--Rafael--Evans--Rojo---Shaw--
Di Maria--Carrick--Herrera---Mata
-------van Persie--Rooney------
Rooney-RVP can work alright if you just don't depend on either of them to be massively creative, which you don't with Di Maria, Herrera and Mata in the side.
We can easily shift from 3-5-2 to 4-3-3/4-2-3-1, which actually is a good thing to have.
But how is Ogden so sure about this?
I would not mind switching to a 1-4-2-1-3 in the distant future, but at the moment, the best system to use is the 1-4-2-2-2 that is capable of alternating to a 1-4-2-3-1..
Ogden was speculating about a possible shift to a 4-3-3 I think. Not saying it will definitely happen.
Why the 1 for the goalkeeper. I think everyone knows we'll play with a goalie!
Anyway, all the speculation regarding switching to a 4-3-3 is because LvG has said that's his preferred system only he couldn't do that at Utd due to the players on the books. Lets hope this is a start to changing from 3-5-2.
The issue we have now, is that the squad is kinda split two ways. There's a very tasty 4-3-3 open to us now, which is
DG
Rafael-Jones-Rojo-Shaw
Carrick-Fletch
Herrera
Di Maria-RvP-Januzaj
Rafael-Jones-Rojo-Shaw
Carrick-Fletch
Herrera
Di Maria-RvP-Januzaj
However, even if we ignore who gets dropped in that formation, the problem comes whenever one of Di Maria or Januzaj need to be rested or get injured. Who do we replace them with? Not many decent options there. You could play Welbeck, but he might go this week. Rooney? Not that impressive out wide, though he works hard. Valencia? Young? Hardly compelling options in that attack-cum-striker role.
So now we have a new problem, which is that we might need to switch back to a 3-4-3 whenever Di Maria or Januzaj aren't available. My guess is that we'll stick with 3-4-3 for a bit while we all get used to it, then we'll switch back and forth through the season according to need. Then next summer we'll get the players we need to make it a long term thing.
I would go with
De Gea
Rafael Smalling Evans Shaw
Carrick Herrera
Mata
Di Maria RvP Rooney
Obviously in the bigger games or tough away ties, we can drop Mata back and replace him with a more defensive minded option, or even Carrick for someone like Blind if he were too come in.
Januzaj will still get plenty of games rotating with Di Maria, Mata, RvP and Rooney. Welbeck can also slot into the wide positions. The only personnel that wouldn't see a great amount of football is Valencia and Young but even then they can still play on the wide positions of the 3 in more defensive minded games.
De Gea
Rafael Smalling Evans Shaw
Carrick Herrera
Mata
Di Maria RvP Rooney
Obviously in the bigger games or tough away ties, we can drop Mata back and replace him with a more defensive minded option, or even Carrick for someone like Blind if he were too come in.
Januzaj will still get plenty of games rotating with Di Maria, Mata, RvP and Rooney. Welbeck can also slot into the wide positions. The only personnel that wouldn't see a great amount of football is Valencia and Young but even then they can still play on the wide positions of the 3 in more defensive minded games.
As we have only squad players or players with potential at the back someone could argue we should keep playing 3 at the back plus wingbacks. I think it depends on the quality Rojo brings to the squad. Can he form a CB partnership with Evans? Could be enough then to return to 4th But with this backline and CM we must be very lucky to return to the CL no matter how good we are up front.
Independent from the players we have, I still prefer a back 4 four covered by a DM
Independent from the players we have, I still prefer a back 4 four covered by a DM
Still better than playing fletcher and cleverley in midfield
Trying to pick our best XI is a conundrum, wrapped up in a mystery, incased in an enigma.
Gary Neville does not seem to have a clue and looks as confused as most United fans. First, he said that Blind will play on as a left sided defender, which makes absolutely no sense as we have several players who could play their. Blind will most likely become our number 6 or auxiliary defender when Rojo, Evans, Shaw and/or even Blackett are out.
Next he said that Mata will benefit from having a player like Di Maria, then he drops Mata from his team in place of Di Maria. He looks as confused as most people on here. I still remain with my opinion that a variation of the 1-4-2-2-2/1-4-2-3-1 is the best system to play with Di Maria, alongside Mata, Rooney, Januzaj, Welbeck kagawa, and/or Van Persie.
Assuming everyone is fit, I would be expecting 4-3-3.
I think we should switch to a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 and rotate our attacking players rather than unbalancing the team to try and fit them in. Competition is healthy and all the top teams have strength in depth.
If one of Mata, Rooney and Van Persie has to fight for their place then so be it. They'll get plenty of games anyway and we'll look better for it.
If one of Mata, Rooney and Van Persie has to fight for their place then so be it. They'll get plenty of games anyway and we'll look better for it.
First. Look at LvG previous teams and how he use his players. No more square pegs in round holes.
Secondly. We don't buy expensive players to have them on the bench, for obvious reasons. Expect Mata, Herrera, Rojo and ADM to play if they are fit and on form. If we buy another midfielder I expect him to be an automatic starter.
Third. I can't see LvG use another formation then 4-3-3 (or 4-2-2-2, 4-3-1-2 whatever we call it) if everybody is available.
Fourth. IMO we desperately need one more quality midfielder.
Fifth. As far as I can see the players who have to improve and make a statement is Mata, Rooney and RVP, otherwise Wellz and Januzaj will sooner or later take their places. I don't count Fletch and Clev because the train has left the station for those two.
Sixth. No more injuries!! No club survive with five six starters always injured our unfit.
My favorite line up is;
-------------DDG-------------
Rafael - Jones - Rojo - Shaw
------Carrick/(Vidal)---------
----Herrera -------ADM------
------------- Mata------------
---Wellz/Januzaj - Roo/RVP
Wellz/Januzaj and ADM give us pace and dribbling skills.
Jones, Rojo, Shaw, Carrick/(Vidal), and Roo/RVP adds steal and muscles.
Mata and Herrera will deliver creativity and direct balls/scoring chances.
If we get Vidal we have three b2b players, last time we had that quality in midfield was when Nokia and Kodak was still popular.
Secondly. We don't buy expensive players to have them on the bench, for obvious reasons. Expect Mata, Herrera, Rojo and ADM to play if they are fit and on form. If we buy another midfielder I expect him to be an automatic starter.
Third. I can't see LvG use another formation then 4-3-3 (or 4-2-2-2, 4-3-1-2 whatever we call it) if everybody is available.
Fourth. IMO we desperately need one more quality midfielder.
Fifth. As far as I can see the players who have to improve and make a statement is Mata, Rooney and RVP, otherwise Wellz and Januzaj will sooner or later take their places. I don't count Fletch and Clev because the train has left the station for those two.
Sixth. No more injuries!! No club survive with five six starters always injured our unfit.
My favorite line up is;
-------------DDG-------------
Rafael - Jones - Rojo - Shaw
------Carrick/(Vidal)---------
----Herrera -------ADM------
------------- Mata------------
---Wellz/Januzaj - Roo/RVP
Wellz/Januzaj and ADM give us pace and dribbling skills.
Jones, Rojo, Shaw, Carrick/(Vidal), and Roo/RVP adds steal and muscles.
Mata and Herrera will deliver creativity and direct balls/scoring chances.
If we get Vidal we have three b2b players, last time we had that quality in midfield was when Nokia and Kodak was still popular.
Januzaj and Di Maria out wide would be any defender's worst nightmare.
Going for this 4-3-3:
De Gea
Jones Evans/Smalling Rojo Shaw
Herrera Mata New
Januzaj Rooney Di Maria
4 actual defenders at the back. Mata to play ahead of the other 2 midfielders. Lindegaard, Welbeck, RVP, Carrick, Kagawa, Smalling/Evans, Rafael/Valencia/Young make a strong bench. Hope Lindegaard and Welbeck are not leaving.
De Gea
Jones Evans/Smalling Rojo Shaw
Herrera Mata New
Januzaj Rooney Di Maria
4 actual defenders at the back. Mata to play ahead of the other 2 midfielders. Lindegaard, Welbeck, RVP, Carrick, Kagawa, Smalling/Evans, Rafael/Valencia/Young make a strong bench. Hope Lindegaard and Welbeck are not leaving.
I think its clear that we'll be playing a 4-3-1-2. Think about it, 3-5-2 only came about because LVG wanted to fit in two strikers and a number 10 (two positions we're well stocked in) and because we didn't have any good option for the wings. Now with Di Maria (), we can play:
-----------De Gea---------
Rafael--Evans---Smalling--Shaw
------Herrera--Jones--Angel--
-------------Mata---------
--------Rooney---RVP-----
Jones (till Carrick gets back) can drop back and make it a three man defence while Rafa and Shaw bomb forward or he can sit and let Herrera and Di Maria do the running and attacking. Di Maria is not your traditional winger IMO.
), we can play:-----------De Gea---------
Rafael--Evans---Smalling--Shaw
------Herrera--Jones--Angel--
-------------Mata---------
--------Rooney---RVP-----
Jones (till Carrick gets back) can drop back and make it a three man defence while Rafa and Shaw bomb forward or he can sit and let Herrera and Di Maria do the running and attacking. Di Maria is not your traditional winger IMO.
We still don't have the wingers to play 4-3-3. There is even question marks regarding if it's really Di Maria's best position. And other than him we have Januzaj, Welbeck.... Valencia, Young . Really don't want to see Kagawa / Rooney / Mata play there anymore.
. Really don't want to see Kagawa / Rooney / Mata play there anymore.We still don't have the wingers to play 4-3-3. There is even question marks regarding if it's really Di Maria's best position. And other than him we have Januzaj, Welbeck.... Valencia, Young
Januzaj right now is perfect for one side of a 433 and Di Maria is proven on the other side. If we have injuries and the players we have available don't look like they can step in than could move to a 352 again etc. But mata, januzaj and di maria of rooney/RVP has got a lot going for it imo
-----------DDG--------------
RAFAEL ROJO EVANS SHAW
DI MARIA CARRICK JANUZAI
------MATA ROONEY--------
-----------RVP--------------
RAFAEL ROJO EVANS SHAW
DI MARIA CARRICK JANUZAI
------MATA ROONEY--------
-----------RVP--------------
We have to change it, there is NO need to keep it just to make one of Rooney/RVP happy. It is killing our team because we do not have the right players to play this formation.
If we don't, we might as well return him straight away. He's one of the world's best wingers, but knowing us we will have him out of position to accommodate Wayne fecking Rooney.
To me it seems like this would be the most balanced way of playing 4-3-3 (as a system not with regards to who's starting or not, signings etc):
Welbeck-Rooney-Januzaj--
---Di Maria---Herrera------
--------Carrick------------
Shaw--Rojo-Jones--Rafael-
A touch more offensive version of how Liverpool started against City yesterday for instance. Of course, this would have us leave out two out of Rooney/RVP and Mata/Herrera which seems like a waste currently. But it seems like this would perfectly fit Di Maria as this has been how he's been used for Argentina and Real with Welbeck driving centrally like Messi / Ronaldo and him taking up the wide position on the left side. I would like another winger for this to work.
I don't really trust our midfield and defense to cope with playing gung-ho 4-3-3 like this, it doesn't look very balanced to me:
Di Maria-Rooney-Januzaj
---------Mata----------
-----Carrick-Herrera----
Shaw-Rojo-Jones-Rafael
Anyhow, it will be very very interesting to see where LVG plans to use Di Maria. He mentioned him once as being a top winger, but now mentioned him as a midfielder. Might just be a language thing though. But I would not be surprised if long term, if we're going 4-3-3 long term that he is looking to create the first formation in this post, rather than the second one.
Really? I think the latter is perfectly balanced. Carrick for me will look a lot better next to players who are actually good enough for us. Herrera has shown he's happy to get stuck in and help and Di Maria is a hard worker. Plus we can actually make something of the possession we have now. Only problem is I can't see LVG dropping one of rooney and RVP just yet.
For the big games we might want to change it but for most games that second can work fine. Welbeck gives you more defensive coverage but doesn't have the same attacking output at all where as mata and di maria are ideal for each other.
We'll have to see I guess but I'm not sure we'll see a 433 straight away although I think it's what we should be aiming for with the players we now have.
It is happening. I hate tell you, but I told you so!
He can but it doesn't mean he will. Di Maria is a player who would fit his system in the same way Robben does for Holland. For him to change is system after getting Di Maria would surprise me.
I don't think he intended to change it after signing Di Maria, I'm not sure why he would have played it tonight for instance if he has no intention of keeping it as the teams system.
However the result tonight could well change his mind, as we look nervous and not comfortable playing this way at all. Confidence seems shot right now, so it's probably not the right time to learn such a specialist system.
I don't think this particular match will considering what the personnel were on the pitch. A hammering by Burnley on Saturday on the other hand...
Please fecking do. Just go back to playing 4-3-3 and if it means one of RVP/Mata/Rooney/Januzaj on the bench then so be it.