A 1-3-5-1-1?
Should we change to a 4-3-3 if we get Di Maria?
- Thread starter DeMono
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
A 1-3-5-1-1?
I think LvG will be playing with a No 10 otherwise he would have got rid off one of Kagawa/Mata. But while there were no rumours at all about Mata leaving since LvG's arrival, the latest reports also suggested he wanted to keep Kagawa.
Anyway, if we despite this don't play with a No 10, but rather a 433 like Spain, will LvG then consider Mata on the "wing" if Di Maria is playing behind him in a three men midfield? A winger in a 433 is not comparable to one in 442 and Mata has played there before for Chelsea and Valencia.
So could we use him the way Spain used Iniesta and Silva (they had a midfield of Busquets, Xavi and Xabi Alonso behind them). That had no pace either but worked well for 6 years because of the extraordinary technical abilities of their players. Ours' are not comparable, but Di Maria would bring both, ability and pace. I think LvG will try it at least.
Anyway, if we despite this don't play with a No 10, but rather a 433 like Spain, will LvG then consider Mata on the "wing" if Di Maria is playing behind him in a three men midfield? A winger in a 433 is not comparable to one in 442 and Mata has played there before for Chelsea and Valencia.
So could we use him the way Spain used Iniesta and Silva (they had a midfield of Busquets, Xavi and Xabi Alonso behind them). That had no pace either but worked well for 6 years because of the extraordinary technical abilities of their players. Ours' are not comparable, but Di Maria would bring both, ability and pace. I think LvG will try it at least.
I don't know if Di Maria will add enough balance to the squad again. I think we are still short a quality right footed wide player and at least one central/defensive midfielder to go back to the 4-3-3. If Strootman comes in January and maybe we can get Reus next season we will definitely be ready to go with the van Gaal's 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 I think.
For me we have to go back to a four man back-line now. We've seen how a lack of pace and dynamism up front have been limiting us so far this season (admittedly partly because of a serious injury crisis). Returning to a 4231 lets us get both Di Maria and Januzaj, the players who offer those qualities, on the pitch in their preferred position. Rooney and RVP are too similar to work as a partnership; far better to just let them compete for the one position.
That side has width and pace, a core that can keep the ball, individuality to break down difficult defences, a solid but technically capable back line with fullbacks who love to burst forward, and two of the league's best strikers competing for position. How can that be anything other than our best option?
De Gea
Rafa - Evans - Rojo - Shaw
Herrera - Carrick
Januzaj - Mata - Di Maria
Roo/RVP
Rafa - Evans - Rojo - Shaw
Herrera - Carrick
Januzaj - Mata - Di Maria
Roo/RVP
That side has width and pace, a core that can keep the ball, individuality to break down difficult defences, a solid but technically capable back line with fullbacks who love to burst forward, and two of the league's best strikers competing for position. How can that be anything other than our best option?
What's wrong with Di maria and Januzaj on the wings?
I think he'll be too stubborn to change it for now. He's invested a lot of time and effort into this new system to drop it like that. Where Di Maria fits in I've no idea, I've a horrible feeling we'll see him at wing back to begin with.
I still stick with saying that a diamond type of 4-3-1-2 is the best way to go for now, and then gradually switch Januzaj in for RvP and switch to a 4-3-3.
De Gea
Rafael - Evans - Rojo - Shaw
Carrick
Herrera - Di maria
Mata
Rooney - Van Persie
Rafael - Evans - Rojo - Shaw
Carrick
Herrera - Di maria
Mata
Rooney - Van Persie
I can sort of see your reasoning, but he did literally say that to move back to 433 we would need to add a world class winger 'like Ronaldo or Di Maria'.
I see your point. It seems like all recent interviews suggest he's fully set on sticking with it though, he's said he doesn't want to choose between RVP and Rooney and he seems pretty set on it in Neville interview in the telegraph. We'll have to see.
Lets face it. If he plays on the wing he is our best winger in the team. If he plays a CM he is the best CM in the team.
If we are to keep three at the back then maybe we could go something like this?
---------------De Gea----------------
------Jones-----Evans-----Rojo------
Rafael----------Carrick----------Shaw
----------Herrera----Di Maria--------
-----------------Mata---------------
----------------Rooney--------------
Essentially what we have but sacrificing that extra striker for an extra midfielder. Might help us control the game a bit better.
If we are to keep three at the back then maybe we could go something like this?
---------------De Gea----------------
------Jones-----Evans-----Rojo------
Rafael----------Carrick----------Shaw
----------Herrera----Di Maria--------
-----------------Mata---------------
----------------Rooney--------------
Essentially what we have but sacrificing that extra striker for an extra midfielder. Might help us control the game a bit better.
In his pressers in the USA Van Gaal said it didn't matter what formation he played as all formations use the same philosophy so i don't see any issues switching formations.
That is my biggest fear.
------------------DDG----------------
Rafael---Jones---------Rojo---Shaw
------------Vidal----Herrera---------
----------------Rooney---------------
Mata---------Van Persie-----Di Maria
That is tasty.
Also leaves room for Januzaj and Kagawa to get plenty of playing time
Rafael---Jones---------Rojo---Shaw
------------Vidal----Herrera---------
----------------Rooney---------------
Mata---------Van Persie-----Di Maria
That is tasty.
Also leaves room for Januzaj and Kagawa to get plenty of playing time
Rooney back in midfield again?
--------------RVP
Di Maria-----Mata---Januzaj
-------Herrera--Rooney
Shaw--Jones---Evans-Rafael
-------------DDG
--------------RVP
Di Maria-----Mata---Januzaj
-------Herrera--Rooney
Shaw--Jones---Evans-Rafael
-------------DDG
Isn't that supposedly the reason he wanted to leave the club?
I think Rooney's better in behind the main striker now. As a club ambassador and someone who earns over 200k per week, I think he'd be more than happy to play where it suits the team best.
That or something similar to what City has been playing today.
4-2-2-2
If we wanna shoehorn all our best players near to their best positions.
I'd like to see us play with more winger type options and the fullbacks overlapping. In that scenario a defender then has a decision to make. Currently our wing backs are the only wide players which make it much easier to defend. Also want to see players on the outside that are able to take on their man and then get a ball in the box or be able to stride into the area and pick out a pass. Currently, it's similar to last year, lots of passion but no penetration and I really believe it's down to us not having those types of players on the outside. In the first match of the season when we changed formations we started getting that penetration through Januzaj and it was causing their defence to struggle. Need more of that.
I'd like to see a 4-2-3-1
Rafael
Smalling
Evans
Shaw
Carrick
Herrera
Januzaj
Rooney
Di Maria
RVP
Obviously this would be the lineup with a fully fit squad. It still looks weak at the back but can go forward and attack. When I look at the schedule, we have to win matches especially against the "smaller" sides to compete. This side will attack and put people under pressure. I feel the current system is too easy to defend and isn't as cut throat to go for wins in matches, which we need.
LVG seems pretty persistent so I don't expect much to change and have to give him credit, he obviously knows a lot more than I do
Will trust the man as he appears an evil genius at times, just hope we start attacking and creating opportunities.
I'd like to see a 4-2-3-1
Rafael
Smalling
Evans
Shaw
Carrick
Herrera
Januzaj
Rooney
Di Maria
RVP
Obviously this would be the lineup with a fully fit squad. It still looks weak at the back but can go forward and attack. When I look at the schedule, we have to win matches especially against the "smaller" sides to compete. This side will attack and put people under pressure. I feel the current system is too easy to defend and isn't as cut throat to go for wins in matches, which we need.
LVG seems pretty persistent so I don't expect much to change and have to give him credit, he obviously knows a lot more than I do
Will trust the man as he appears an evil genius at times, just hope we start attacking and creating opportunities.I reckon the formation will vary from game to game. Di Maria gives us the OPTION of deploying more tradition wingers/wide forwards as we have him and Januzaj, however it wouldn't surprise me to see LVG use him centrally or at WB as well.
Agreed that Di Maria and Januzaj provide a lot of flexibility and quality. Hopefully it won't take too long to figure out the right system. I sincerely wonder if one of Van Persie or Rooney will have to make way. With Di Maria and Januzaj (plus only one of Rooney or Van Persie), we'd start looking more mobile and dangerous in attack (especially on the break).
Honestly given what LVG said about the squad being unbalanced, it wouldn't surprise me if we did see ADM used as a wingback.
LVG clearly wants to try to play Rooney, RVP and Mata wherever possible (and rightly so). ADM is a guaranteed starter and we all know what Januzaj can do - the only way to try to fit these players in will be in a 3-5-2 with Januzaj and Di Maria at Wingback
LVG clearly wants to try to play Rooney, RVP and Mata wherever possible (and rightly so). ADM is a guaranteed starter and we all know what Januzaj can do - the only way to try to fit these players in will be in a 3-5-2 with Januzaj and Di Maria at Wingback
Rooney/Mata---RVP/Kagawa--Januzaj
------------Di Maria-----Herrera--
-------------------Holder------------
Shaw-----Evans------Jones-------Rafael
with Carrick, Fletcher or a signing as the holder. Give Di Maria and Herrera freedom to play 2-way football, Januzaj on the right to stretch play and whichever 2 of Rooney/RVP/Kagawa/Mata/Hernandez/Chicharito are in form can be the 2 attackers.
Right now, the most important thing is that we have to start playing decent football again. That requires quick passing and movement. If we're playing well and not scoring, we can make changes, but we have to start looking like a functioning pass and move outfit. We're miles behind a team like Everton for that right now, never mind Citeh or Liverpool.
------------Di Maria-----Herrera--
-------------------Holder------------
Shaw-----Evans------Jones-------Rafael
with Carrick, Fletcher or a signing as the holder. Give Di Maria and Herrera freedom to play 2-way football, Januzaj on the right to stretch play and whichever 2 of Rooney/RVP/Kagawa/Mata/Hernandez/Chicharito are in form can be the 2 attackers.
Right now, the most important thing is that we have to start playing decent football again. That requires quick passing and movement. If we're playing well and not scoring, we can make changes, but we have to start looking like a functioning pass and move outfit. We're miles behind a team like Everton for that right now, never mind Citeh or Liverpool.
IF we get Vidal, I would go with a 1-4-1-2-1-2 with a rotation of RvP/Rooney up front and Di Maria given full offensive liberty to drift out in an inside forward position and cut inside the box, similar to how LvG played Robben in the World Cup. And IF we get Vidal, Blind would be an amazing signing for us, simply because then we'd have 3 midfielders who aren't afraid to go to ground and tackle. I've seen Blind be an amazing tackler in Ajax, Herrera has the willingness to be, but just needs some ironing out overtime and Vidal is one of the best destroyer midfielders in the world. Something similar to...
------------------------ De Gea ------------------------
--- Rafael ------- Rojo ---------- Jones -------- Shaw---
------------------------- Blind -------------------------
----------------- Herrera ------ Vidal -----------------
------------------------- Mata ------------------------
---------- Di Maria --------------- Rooney --------------
... would absolutely terrify our opposition, especially in the second half of the season, when there's some cohesion between those 3. The reason our midfield, especially on a defensive note is so garbage is because our players are way too soft on tackle. Which we should thank our lucky stars for, because they're absolute shite and would get a red in every game. But a midfield that can go to ground and make a player bite the grass without conceding a foul? That'd make pacey opposition forwards soil their pants
Right now, we're so easy to get past because fast and technical players, the likes of Sterling and Oscar especially, will just pick up speed from their own half and charge through our midfield, because they know players the likes of Fletcher and Cleverley would much rather contain than tackle, while Fellaini is just too slow to even get to them, which gives them all the time in the world to pick a pass or worse, take a shot on goal. Most good midfields in the world force you to slow down and pay attention to them out of fear for your own shins. That's the idea of a midfield. Look at Bayern, Barca, et cetera. Every time a team attacks them, they lose speed in midfield because they have to think of ways to get around the likes of Schweinsteiger and Xavi, otherwise they will get completely obliterated if they just try to run past them. And if you noticed, even the likes of Sunderland didn't feel intimidated by our presence at midfield. They ran at full throttle and our CMs did nothing to stop them, which gave our defence all sorts of problems. Any top table team would have won that match simply by telling their players to run and disregard Cleverley and Fletch.
I drifted wayyyy off topic on that one, but I believe it's something to think about. Old school hard tacklers who aren't afraid of the occasional yellow and leave players dead in their tracks is what we need.
------------------------ De Gea ------------------------
--- Rafael ------- Rojo ---------- Jones -------- Shaw---
------------------------- Blind -------------------------
----------------- Herrera ------ Vidal -----------------
------------------------- Mata ------------------------
---------- Di Maria --------------- Rooney --------------
... would absolutely terrify our opposition, especially in the second half of the season, when there's some cohesion between those 3. The reason our midfield, especially on a defensive note is so garbage is because our players are way too soft on tackle. Which we should thank our lucky stars for, because they're absolute shite and would get a red in every game. But a midfield that can go to ground and make a player bite the grass without conceding a foul? That'd make pacey opposition forwards soil their pants
Right now, we're so easy to get past because fast and technical players, the likes of Sterling and Oscar especially, will just pick up speed from their own half and charge through our midfield, because they know players the likes of Fletcher and Cleverley would much rather contain than tackle, while Fellaini is just too slow to even get to them, which gives them all the time in the world to pick a pass or worse, take a shot on goal. Most good midfields in the world force you to slow down and pay attention to them out of fear for your own shins. That's the idea of a midfield. Look at Bayern, Barca, et cetera. Every time a team attacks them, they lose speed in midfield because they have to think of ways to get around the likes of Schweinsteiger and Xavi, otherwise they will get completely obliterated if they just try to run past them. And if you noticed, even the likes of Sunderland didn't feel intimidated by our presence at midfield. They ran at full throttle and our CMs did nothing to stop them, which gave our defence all sorts of problems. Any top table team would have won that match simply by telling their players to run and disregard Cleverley and Fletch.
I drifted wayyyy off topic on that one, but I believe it's something to think about. Old school hard tacklers who aren't afraid of the occasional yellow and leave players dead in their tracks is what we need.
2-6-2 imo
DDG
Jones-Rojo
Dimaria-Mata-Fletcher-Ander-Kagawa-Adnan
Rooney-RVP.
DDG
Jones-Rojo
Dimaria-Mata-Fletcher-Ander-Kagawa-Adnan
Rooney-RVP.
There was a time when we actually had no midfielders, and now we have a flurry on No 10s.
I think once all players are back fit and healthy, a fluid 4-3-3 will be the best to go.
We need a better central midfield though, somebody who will chip in with 10+ goals a season.
I think with Di Maria and Januzaj flanking either Rooney or RVP will score goals for fun.
If we have Rafael and Shaw overlapping too, with Carrick deep, Herrera and say Vidal box 2 box it would be very exciting.
We need a better central midfield though, somebody who will chip in with 10+ goals a season.
I think with Di Maria and Januzaj flanking either Rooney or RVP will score goals for fun.
If we have Rafael and Shaw overlapping too, with Carrick deep, Herrera and say Vidal box 2 box it would be very exciting.
@shaggy That's exactly how he was used in previous season for Madrid, he was sensational and IMO that's where he would be the best for us.
RM switched to 4-4-2 at times, with Ronaldo becoming a striker and Di Maria left winger.
That’s how I would play him, load of energy in midfield but can also contribute offensively.
----------------De Gea----------------
Rafael - Smalling - Evans - Shaw
----------------Carrick----------------
----------Herrera -- Di Maria---------
--Januzaj -- Van Persie – Welbeck--
Rooney for Van Persie or Welbeck, Mata or Lingard for Januzaj. I prefer this setup as it’s much more flexible, can play counter attacking or possession football. We should abandon the idea of putting all the players who provide the largest number of goals on the pitch at the same time, for the sake of balance in the team.
Last edited:
How is that tasty? Rooney is not a #10 and Mata is one of the best and most productive players in that position in the game, yet you've got him out wide. The choice is between Rooney and Van Persie, it has been for over a year now.
Rooney can play fine behind the striker and MAta's good on the wing. I was just trying to fit in all our stars without having to bench them
He's not fine behind the striker at all. He scores goals, yet is predictable, obvious and lacks the finesse or ingenuity to work the ball in tight spots. Wayne is a brilliant striker, nothing more.
Mata can play 'out wide' quite well but it depends on the system. His kind of wing play doesn't lend itself to the way Van Gaal likes to utilise his wingers. It's Rooney or Van Persie, but again, I fear we have another manager that just won't choose between them. And I like Van Gaal very much, but permanently benching his captain or his Dutch son is a decision he has never had to make. He'll not do it, and if he doesn't we'll only continue to suffer.
Can't be much harder than dropping Van Bommel, who was not only a compatriot, but Bayern's Captain and one of their best players in double winning season. Dropped him without much worry.
I honestly think it will be a 4-3-3. We shall see. If he buys a top central midfielder on top of ADM then I think its certain to be 4-3-3.
It will mean one of Rooney, RVP, or Mata not being an automatic pick.
It will mean one of Rooney, RVP, or Mata not being an automatic pick.
I think it'll mean two of those three not being picked.
Could be right. Depends if he sees Mata able to play in a midfield 3.
----------Vidal (Hopefully)---------
--Herrera------Mata-------
Lvg needs to change things. Rooney and LVG don't work as neither has pace and both want the ball so they tend to come in to the midfield area. Welbeck injected pace as soon as he came on and ran past defender's shoulders.
I didn't know that. I suppose it's slightly comforting. Then again, Robin Van Persie he isn't. Van Gaal will try to make Rooney and Van Persie work as best he can. I can't blame him too much for that either, I just can't see it coming off.
At the moment though, its a particularly tough decision. You're not only dropping RvP or Mata, you're dropping them for Valencia, Young, Hernandez, etc.
Its a hell of a lot easier dropping RvP for someone like Di Maria.
I think it might be time to accept the law of Highlander with regards to playing both Rooney and RVP...
For me we should play in 4-3-3, and to prevent any conflicts, we should propose RVP in an offer for Vidal.