How many people did City interview when Pellegrini got the job?
Should the FA implement the Rooney Rule ?
- Thread starter Raoul
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I think we need more Northern Irish people in management jobs. Only one I know of in England at the moment. We should throw that one in too. I wouldn't mind a wee interview for a job in the premier league.
Exactly. That's the point people are missing. It's giving black managers the chance to impress in an interview that they otherwise might not be considered for. You only have to look at the current managers in the Championship and League One and wonder what the hell some of them are doing there. Dougie Freedman is a prime example. A mediocre playing career and he has had unsuccessful stints as manager at Palace and Bolton. How many black players will he have played with who haven't been given the same opportunities as him for whatever reason? Paul Ince had to start at Macclesfield Town and his playing career dwarves Freedman's.
How would I know that? But you can guarantee that Pellegrini had to have an interview before he was offered the job.
The whole idea of racially profiling candidates is wrong. Race shouldn't come into play at all. I like the attitude of Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He is one of the most famous astrophysicists and is black (for the people who don't know who he is). He has stated that it was very difficult to achieve what he has, in part because the field is dominated by other races, but he absolutely refuses to bring race up in any interview or other I apperience. He would accept only interviews that seek his opinion on astrophysics and refuse interviews asking his perspective from a position of being black. This is the way it should be. I don't think we should be even talking about the race of players or managers, all that matters is ability.
Also nowadays there are more and more clubs owned by people from other minorities. It's ridiculous to suggest that clubs like City, QPR or Cardiff have hired white managers because of discrimination.
Also nowadays there are more and more clubs owned by people from other minorities. It's ridiculous to suggest that clubs like City, QPR or Cardiff have hired white managers because of discrimination.
Are there other industries/jobs with similar 'rule'?
In an ideal word, of course. But do you genuinely believe the lack of black managers in the game is simply because of a lack of ability on their part? I think it's ridiculously naive to think so.
That's the whole point I'm trying to make - it doesn't matter how many black managers are out there, because race doesn't matter. All that matters is how many good managers are out there. On individual basis, if someone was denied a job because of his race, that should be looked into and the guilty party should be punished. But to say "we need more black managers, because we don't have enough of them" is just meaningless. Race shouldn't matter at all.
Also how do you draw the line? We could say we had a black manager last year, because Giggs has a black father. Some might agree that qualifies him as a minority, others would disagree, because he doesn't look black enough.
If it included every ethnicity then I'd consider it but a rule which only promotes one ethnic minority over the others, not for me thanks.
That's not how discrimination works. No one says "I'm not giving you the job because you're black/a woman/gay", they just trot out some excuse about them not being the right candidate for the role.
Good thing it doesn't do that.
Why would people be overlooking black candidates though? Its an ad hoc debate because the arguement is that anyone who says that its not racism why black managers are being overlooked are called naive, as though it must secretly deep down be some form of racism somewhere. How can you actually fight that debate because its unprovable?
There shouldnt be a rule that means anyone HAS to be interviewed they should just apply and get an interview like everyone else does.
Besides the same people getting the jobs isnt because they are not black, this happens all the time in the workplace, its who you know.
There shouldnt be a rule that means anyone HAS to be interviewed they should just apply and get an interview like everyone else does.
Besides the same people getting the jobs isnt because they are not black, this happens all the time in the workplace, its who you know.
The Rooney Rule does include every ethnic minority to be fair. As an example the head coach of the Carolina Panthers - Ron Rivera is hispanic and a beneficiary of the rule. It's not perfect but it has been quite effective so far in the NFL.
Not aimed at your post, but I struggle to understand why so many people are against it. It doesn't even stipulate a club to appoint black or minority managers. It just mandates for them to interview a minority candidate among several who go through the pre-appointment process. Interview him/ her. If they're compatible then fine. If not, you can always select someone else. Simples. What they're striving for is to bring a broader range of people into the mix, many of whom would have otherwise been overlooked. It just gives a lot of coaches exposure, not necessarily promote them or ask you to be partisan. It's just not possible to accomplish that with the current status quo.
For this to be fully effective then a mandatory interview process needs to be implemented, and the evaluation of each candidate needs to be documented. I'm not sure how realistic this is at the highest levels of the business/sports world, where positions are filled based on "who you know" or a lazy evaluation of one's qualities. For example, if Mourinho was selected as the manager of any club in world football, it probably would be done without a serious interview I.e. he would be guaranteed to get any job he wanted. Any black coach interviewed would be a formality to check the box. I think.
That being said, if I was a minority manager I would welcome the opportunity to go through a formal evaluation of my qualities. Such knowledge of what I need to have to excell at the top is indispensable. And surely there exist minority coaches at the lower levels who would be hired in league 2, 1, the conference, etc, if they were interviewed. So I'm for this rule, as long as the final decision is based on merit alone.
The sensible, long term solution would be to make badges more accessible to people of minority origin. Building from the grassroots. But that is too much logic for this short term generation.
The sensible, long term solution would be to make badges more accessible to people of minority origin. Building from the grassroots. But that is too much logic for this short term generation.
The best people for the job should always get the interviews regardless of colour.
I just struggle to understand how it works.
Say Newcastle sack Pardew.
They draw up a shortlist.
Well, Moysie and Brucie are on the list, and I wonder if Martin O Neill fancies a crack.
But hang on, we have to have a black guy on there too...sh!t, say Chris Powell.
Why are they going to hire the forced Rooney rule option?
Because he happens to interview better than the others?
Just can't see it.
It's only discrimination if someone gets hired based on a criteria other than merit, no? If the interview slots are unlimited, how is it discrimination? Best man wins, we're just making sure we are covering everyone.
How can it not be? You're simply giving someone an interview slot on their skin colour!
A.) Its doing nothing to address the actual problem.
B.) No decision should be based on the colour of someone's skin. Rightly or wrongly this only fuels racism.
C.) Where do you stop? Why not have a requirement to interview: white, black, Asian, women, the disabled, over 50s, under 50s, ex cons.
I'm not picking on you... I swear lol
But seriously, what criteria are they using to draw up the shortlist? Why is Pardew and Moyes on it, and Powell (I have no idea who the feck he is by the way) isn't? Most jobs work through an initial screening, then the pool is filtered through experience, skills, etc. Give everyone a chance to present their CV.
The way people have been speaking about such a rule being implemented in England, they seem to have been implying it was all about the promotion of Black coaches. If you read the link below - literally is all about African American's but anyway seeing as it seeks to promote all ethnic minorities - I have no particular issues with such a rule.. there are plenty of clueless managers out there that have got roles purely down to their playing career, if this rule means ex players of an ethnic minority have to get interviewed and have a chance of nailing a job - might not be such a bad idea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule
Surely you've seen the press, Moyes is already being linked to it, before Pardew has gone. Brucie is obviously a Geordie and is always bandied around for that job, he's been on record saying he'd like it but the timing was wrong before.
Chris Powell, ex England left back, one of perhaps 2 Black managers currently in the 4 divisions?
Well evidently it does matter, hence the lack of black managers in the game. You're effectively saying the only reason there aren't any black managers is solely because the ones available aren't good enough, which is nothing short of utter bollocks.
And Giggs? Giggs is not a black manager, and even if he was, that would have been one more black manager to add to a still paltry list.
Exactly this.
When do we start insisting a woman has to be on each list? And like you say, how deep do we go...
Why do we need to start artificially engineering races of managers? We have a sh!tload of foreign managers in the English leagues, which we didn't have 20 years ago, which I think is a natural progression from the massive increase of foreign players over the last 10 years.
I'm sure there will be a natural progression, as some of the top black players retire these days.
To be honest I'm not too fussed. I didn't mind a foreigner as England manager, I couldn't give too much of a sh!T about "local" players playing for Man Utd, I'd just want the best available.
You can't guarantee that at all. Also if somebody is head hunted any interview would normally be a formality. Utd didn't seem to need an interview to appoint Moyes and no doubt countless other jobs have been given on a similar basis.
Does Giggs count? How about Edgar Davids?
I think what needs to be monitored is who is coming up in the ranks and whether that can be adjusted. Not the head coaches but the assistant coaches. That is where a Rooney rule would be more effective, by creating a better pool of minority candidates via the assistants. It seems more managers wind up bringing their own staff, which is usually their good ole boys & those they are most familiar with. How many managers get hired & bring in the usual suspects for their staff? If they were forced to interview a few black candidates, they might find a gem or two and even freshen up the coaching tree.
The NFL was lucky in that they helped create a good pool of black candidates through their assistants.
Exactly, we have had an influx of foreign managers but not ones from ethnic minorities. Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink was a great player yet his only job so far has been at Royal Antwerp. Personally, I feel a black manager has a lot more work to do to land a top job whereas a white player seems to be able to step into a more high profile job based on their playing career alone.
Rather than the Rooney rule, there should be rules that:
a) Every managerial vacancy must initiate a process where at least 5 potential managers are interviewed.
b) Clubs have to explain their choices/reasoning, including opting not to interview any potential ethnic managers... to an overseeing body.
a) Every managerial vacancy must initiate a process where at least 5 potential managers are interviewed.
b) Clubs have to explain their choices/reasoning, including opting not to interview any potential ethnic managers... to an overseeing body.
Randomly, as you mention old Jimmy. I work with his wife's sister down in High Wycombe. He was coaching at Middlesborough as well down the line, but I appreciate you mean as an actual manager in your point.
Is there any evidence to back that up?
I resent the de facto notion 'Oh, there are few minority managers, so there must be racial discrinimation' mindset. One, they are 'minorities' which means the overall population of them will be lesser as compared to the 'majority'. Secondly of the minority people who make the cut would be even less.
Unless there are any stats to indicate on how many minority staff have applied and who they are, the whole point of implementing the Rooney Rule seems to just be an excercise in political correctness.
How would this even work? Don't most clubs approach the manager they want to employ, rather than waiting to see who send their CV in?
If this came in, I can see a situation where a lot of black, would-be managers have their time wasted by clubs paying lip service to the new rule.
If this came in, I can see a situation where a lot of black, would-be managers have their time wasted by clubs paying lip service to the new rule.
More so affirmative action than political correctness, but as you said, the overall population of minority managers is well below the population ratio of minority players, which is why there's a discussion in the first place. Two black managers in all 4 top flights of football and who knows however many other minorities are managing. It would be good to know whether there are any black managers who have actually interviewed for positions recently.
Even if it is the case that ethnic minority managers aren't applying for jobs, there must be a reason behind that, and therefore a problem still exists. Again, unless you are simply claiming ethnic minority players currently aren't interested in becoming managers.
I've not seen the press to be honest.
Let's cut the bs. Football at the highest level is not a meritocracy. If it was, would Moyes be our ex manager (as much as I was patient with him, Crom knows I was)? The status quo is not acceptable. Especially in English football. The Rooney rule does not fix the problem, but it widens the selection pool a little bit. The best solution would be to
1. Make the hiring process transparent. Put ads in the paper. Etc.
2. Select managers based on pre determined metrics and the interview process. Document all relevant information to ensure decisions are made based on merit.
3. Subsidize the cost of coaching badges, enabling a greater proportion of the population to enter the system, and let the cream rise to the top.
Your asking two questions here;
Is there any statistical evidence to suggest that minorities are being discriminated against? Yes, obviously.
Is there any other evidence to suggest minorities are being discriminated against? Maybe not.
Let's go back to point number 1:
Obviously, but compared to the overall population at large, the number of black Football League and Premier League managers is disproportionately lower. Compared to the makeup of the football league and premier league players, the number of black Football League and Premier League managers is hugely disproportionately lower.
Also "Secondly of the minority people who make the cut would be even less." is absurd, or just not a properly formed sentence.
Point Number 2:
Unless there are any stats to indicate on how many minority staff have applied and who they are, the whole point of implementing the Rooney Rule seems to just be an excercise in political correctness.
Indeed. Which should be the first point of call really. To force Premier League and Football League clubs to release this data.
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What is with the referees? Any minorities represented there?
That is the problem. It is unfair that coaches are selected just because they are the hottest name on the block. It is unfair that coaches get to select their assistants just because. If the coach comes with the assistants, then evaluate them on a whole.
It is not a meritocracy right now. That needs to be changed. The likes of Mourinho (who started as an interpreter) need to be increased in the system, at the expense of those who get positions just because they were ex-players (looking at you Giggs
. Butt seems to be more qualified cause of his work with the youth team but I may be wrong)