Another Rooney thread...
Should the FA implement the Rooney Rule ?
- Thread starter Raoul
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I always dislike these type of positive discrimination type of rules. It doesn’t actually solve a whole lot and in the end just forces employers and managers to look waste time interviewing people that they have no intention of actually hiring. If there is actually a culture of racism against black managers, forcing clubs to tick a box isn’t going to solve that (I don’t think there actually is) as they will still select the person they want anyway.
The issue isn’t racism in my opinion, it is a simple numbers game. Ten/twenty years ago there were not that many english black players knocking about compared to the number currently. As a result the overseas players generally go back to their home countries to manage/live, making the number of black players that want to manage in England very small. Even smaller when you consider the percentage of coaches that are actually good enough to do it at the top level as well. This is the reason there is so few in my mind. In the future, when you have all the current black players retiring is when we will really see an influx of black coaches/managers at the top level.
The issue isn’t racism in my opinion, it is a simple numbers game. Ten/twenty years ago there were not that many english black players knocking about compared to the number currently. As a result the overseas players generally go back to their home countries to manage/live, making the number of black players that want to manage in England very small. Even smaller when you consider the percentage of coaches that are actually good enough to do it at the top level as well. This is the reason there is so few in my mind. In the future, when you have all the current black players retiring is when we will really see an influx of black coaches/managers at the top level.
I am not sure Rooney Law will work in soccer, clubs usually know who they want as the new manager and have a couple of options in case their first choice is unavailable. it doesn't seem to be an open interview with 5 or 6 candidates vying for the job. Unfortunately it is based on reputation, what you have accomplished elsewhere, so it's difficult to get any new blood in.
The big problem I believe is the lack of black players that have all their coaching badges and are qualified to manage . Other than Chris Hughton, Paul Ince and Chris Hutchings who else is there?
Rooney rule in the premier league is a tricky issue. At lower divisions, i see how it could work but i dont think its a good idea in the PL
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I'm all for equality, but is this a suggestion that black managers are not even getting interviews or being considered because of the colour of there skin.
If this is implemented, it's a reversal. Are they getting the job because of a rule? because of a quota? rather than the actual skills and knowledge they possess.
If this is implemented, it's a reversal. Are they getting the job because of a rule? because of a quota? rather than the actual skills and knowledge they possess.
Yes. I'm not black.
Maybe it could be applied in the lower leagues but there are such huge differences between the Premier League and the NFL that I can't see it having much practical effect in the PL. For one thing, unlike the largely all American NFL (with a large majority of black players), the PL is the most cosmopolitan domestic competition of the most globally popular sport in which even the smaller clubs can increasingly attract decent international coaches - in other words, the potential recruiting pool is enormous, with British managers of whatever colour increasingly struggling to get a look in. Secondly, even if the PL clubs are required to invite one black candidate, the risks of getting wrong are so high (relegation, massive fall in revenues, doing a Leeds etc) that the chances of them taking a punt on the black candidate are little to none (unless he has the sort of established reputation which means he would probably be considered anyway). The risk profile is totally different to the franchise system in the NFL where there is no relegation and a bad season at least gets you compensation through priority draft picks.
No. Horrible idea.
Honorable intentions, but it would be unworkable.
Honorable intentions, but it would be unworkable.
This basically sums it up.
Ridiculous rule, its silly to compare it to the NFL, different country, different game, different genetic makeup that plays the game.
I bet you would struggle to name 10 suitable black candidates for top flight jobs, the reason why isn't because the colour of their skin.
The problem is there isn't enough black and Asian ex players going down the coaching route and getting their badges. There is also an ethnic culture for minorities in any country that was originally predominantly white. There's very few middle eastern and south Asians playing football because their cultural background has absolutely no interest in it, you'll find far more people of Indian/Pakistani origin playing Cricket, because that's what their recent ancestry played. Once that culture has been fully integrated into our society then it will begin to dilute.
On a side note I just can't wait for the moron Sold Campbell to put his point across.
I bet you would struggle to name 10 suitable black candidates for top flight jobs, the reason why isn't because the colour of their skin.
The problem is there isn't enough black and Asian ex players going down the coaching route and getting their badges. There is also an ethnic culture for minorities in any country that was originally predominantly white. There's very few middle eastern and south Asians playing football because their cultural background has absolutely no interest in it, you'll find far more people of Indian/Pakistani origin playing Cricket, because that's what their recent ancestry played. Once that culture has been fully integrated into our society then it will begin to dilute.
On a side note I just can't wait for the moron Sold Campbell to put his point across.
No you won't.
Yeh, you will. To name a few
Adil Rashid
Amjad khan
Monty panesar
Samit Patel
Ajmal shahzad
Ravi bopara
Moeen ali
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Definitely. Every time minorities in football are talked about and Asians are discussed this stereotype is always mentioned. I grew up in a very diverse school and everyone played football. This is only anecdotal evidence but the number of Asian teenagers I knew of who played cricket was massively dwarfed by those playing football. And that's just those playing casual cricket at the park. I'd never heard of any who were part of any cricket clubs but there were plenty of Asians who were part of amateur football clubs.
Check my edited post, now name the top 5 english born players with the same ethic background playing football.
If people argue that Asians don't get given a proper chance in football then how will naming the top 5 prove them wrong?
Because that's bollocks, there seems to be no real argument suggesting footballers are excluded because of their ethnicity, the gripe seems to be with the lack of ethnic managers and you know that, its because you can't do it.
The one and only Englishman of Asian decent to earn full caps for England is Frank Soo in 1933.
I used to think this was a bit of a pointless idea but at the end of the day, what have you got to lose?
Surely interviewing a black man isn't going to mean you can't interview a white man. You can interview as many as you like as long as there's a minority on the list. Of course, if the minority doesn't get onto the initial list because the chairman is an actual racist then its not going to help anyway.
Surely interviewing a black man isn't going to mean you can't interview a white man. You can interview as many as you like as long as there's a minority on the list. Of course, if the minority doesn't get onto the initial list because the chairman is an actual racist then its not going to help anyway.
I think it would encourage more black managers to get their coaching badges which can only be a good thing surely?
Generally speaking I'm in favour of having what is now called affirmative action (though the term has a negative connotation of course).
The reason I'm in favour is because systems that have discrimination built into them are self-fulfilling, not self-correcting. That's their very nature. If there is discrimination in a system, it doesn't simply go away, even if the parties that are discriminated against increase in number. Bear in mind that can be a systematic problem, not a problem of racism in individuals within that system.
Whether the Rooney rule is the answer I couldn't say, I haven't looked into it enough. I don't specifically know why the number of black managers is so low so its hard to diagnose the problem. Though the idea that they're not good enough is ridiculous. Being a shite manager does not stop you getting a job in the football league.
The reason I'm in favour is because systems that have discrimination built into them are self-fulfilling, not self-correcting. That's their very nature. If there is discrimination in a system, it doesn't simply go away, even if the parties that are discriminated against increase in number. Bear in mind that can be a systematic problem, not a problem of racism in individuals within that system.
Whether the Rooney rule is the answer I couldn't say, I haven't looked into it enough. I don't specifically know why the number of black managers is so low so its hard to diagnose the problem. Though the idea that they're not good enough is ridiculous. Being a shite manager does not stop you getting a job in the football league.
The.funny thing is that white people are acutally a minority in this world.
Of course. In 20 Premier League there should be 5 White managers, 5 Black, 5 Asian and 5 Martians.
Oh, 10 of them has to be women.
Imagine that your team gets promoted to Premier League, but you're white man so they have to sack you for that.
Oh, 10 of them has to be women.
Imagine that your team gets promoted to Premier League, but you're white man so they have to sack you for that.
I believe such quotas are much more discriminating than lack of them.
They are discriminating, that's the point. Namely positive discrimination.
What?
The Rooney Rule isn't a quota. It's a way of encouraging teams to take into consideration more than white men.Of course. In 20 Premier League there should be 5 White managers, 5 Black, 5 Asian and 5 Martians.
Oh, 10 of them has to be women.
Imagine that your team gets promoted to Premier League, but you're white man so they have to sack you for that.
It's worked quite well in the NFL. And in every other scenario similar things have been done to diversify the field.
Against any kind of forcing.
I don't really know, most people don't, but logic would dictate that peoples ability isn't going to have much to do with the color of their skin, so there must be something going wrong that's causing a disproportionate amount of white managers. There's no reason to think every potential black manager is Paul Ince, just like there is no reason to think every white manager is Alan Shearer. But the point of this would be to give them an opportunities in the field in the first place.If that is the case, then forcing clubs to interview people for reasons unrelated to anything other than the colour of their skin seems the wrong approach to me; and more likely to cause resentment rather than change such very outdated opinions. Particularly if they already know the way they are going to go in terms of replacing their manager, but have to jump through an extra hoop on the way.
Is the problem maybe more to do with there not being many black candidates? In which case the solution would seem to me to have to start earlier than the interview stage for managerial jobs. Now when the issue of black managers comes-up, then Paul fecking Ince is usually mentioned. Now for me, I wouldn't want to interview Paul Ince for a managerial job, and the reasons why have nothing to do with his race. But more candidates who aren't fecking idiots - I'd be open to talking to them; am I naive in my view of the recruitment attitude of clubs in 2014?
Or is it a catch 22 situation: there aren't many black managers, therefore potential black managers don't think it is worth going down that avenue?
I realise I'm asking more questions than giving answers
Read the previous messages.
I did. Are you arguing that ethnicity has something to do with how good someone will be at something?
No, I'm arguing that cultural background does (though ethnicity does effect how good someone is at something). When there is little to no involvement in a sport surrounding a young person they are far less likely to pick it up. Its only when you start to get 2nd and 3rd generations do you see this cultural impact dilute.
I cited Asians and the differences between football and cricket as an example.
Voted yes. I studied a lot of this at university, ended up writing a 3/4000 words report about it. There is a huge institutional racism problem in football. Old, white chairmen who are happy with black players because they can run fast etc and he will be given direction by another white guy in charge. THey aren't gonna trust a black man to actually use his brain and make decisions on his own however. There have been a lot of reports of covert racism on FA coaching courses as well. As an example, its far easier to imagine someone like John Terry as a manager than someone like Rio due to Rio's involvement in "black" culture such as his love of rap music, and baseball caps. Black coaches on coaching courses have spoken about having to "act" white in order to pass the course and fit in.
And the system works well in the NFL. Mike Tomlin seriously impressed in his interview for the Steelers job, and ended up getting it, something which wouldn't have happened otherwise (and he has been a huge success in the role). Obviously, it would need tweaking here, as there is a huge difference between the size of the jobs here, Manchester United to Hartlepool for example, and there are no black coaches currently qualified enough to take over at Utd due to lack of experience. NFL only has 32 teams, and it is common for offensive or defensive coaches to be offered jobs.
And the system works well in the NFL. Mike Tomlin seriously impressed in his interview for the Steelers job, and ended up getting it, something which wouldn't have happened otherwise (and he has been a huge success in the role). Obviously, it would need tweaking here, as there is a huge difference between the size of the jobs here, Manchester United to Hartlepool for example, and there are no black coaches currently qualified enough to take over at Utd due to lack of experience. NFL only has 32 teams, and it is common for offensive or defensive coaches to be offered jobs.
This world is getting ridiculous, you're actually better off in a minority ethnicity due to you as a single person being a higher % than if you were in another group, meaning that more "Average Joe's" from lesser minorities will be more to the fore... I'm not explaining myself very well, but to give a very simplistic analogy:
1 job, 5000 people who are Ethnicity A, 2000 people apply who are Ethnicity B and only 50 people from Ethnicity C.
Surely, if they are filling ethnicity quota's, and had to have 2 from each ethnicity, the people in Ethnicity A have a 1 in 2500 chance, whereas Ethnicity C, will have a 1 in 25 chance.
This doesn't make any sense to me, unless I've misunderstood everything
1 job, 5000 people who are Ethnicity A, 2000 people apply who are Ethnicity B and only 50 people from Ethnicity C.
Surely, if they are filling ethnicity quota's, and had to have 2 from each ethnicity, the people in Ethnicity A have a 1 in 2500 chance, whereas Ethnicity C, will have a 1 in 25 chance.
This doesn't make any sense to me, unless I've misunderstood everything
Black people play a lot of football though, so why would the questionable example of Asians playing cricket mean anything here?
Ethnicity isn't going to effect how good someone is at managing a football team. Genes might make someones muscles stronger or make someone faster, but those things have feck all to do with football management.
I think you have gone wrong somewhere. The person who is best suited to a job will get it, the drive for equal opportunities doesn't mean that an ethnicity of 2500 people will get the same amount of jobs as an ethnicity of 50 people, it means that you should aim to have 50 of second minority for every 2500 of the other.This world is getting ridiculous, you're actually better off in a minority ethnicity due to you as a single person being a higher % than if you were in another group, meaning that more "Average Joe's" from lesser minorities will be more to the fore... I'm not explaining myself very well, but to give a very simplistic analogy:
1 job, 5000 people who are Ethnicity A, 2000 people apply who are Ethnicity B and only 50 people from Ethnicity C.
Surely, if they are filling ethnicity quota's, and had to have 2 from each ethnicity, the people in Ethnicity A have a 1 in 2500 chance, whereas Ethnicity C, will have a 1 in 25 chance.
This doesn't make any sense to me, unless I've misunderstood everything
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Rooney Rule, it doesn't force clubs to hire anyone. It's a mechanism by which clubs are encouraged to overcome their own ingrained prejudices and consider non-white candidates which can only be a good thing. If they're not convinced by that candidate they don't have to hire them, no harm no foul.
The fact is that a lot of the time they are convinced and a black manager who otherwise would have been overlooked gets the job they deserve. This has been borne out in America where, when given there has been a rise in the number of black head coaches in the NFL, not because teams are being forced to hire them, but because when they get a chance to prove themselves in an interview they, surprise surprise, occasionally turn out to be the best candidate for the role.
edit - i actually think the use of the term 'quota system' in the title is confusing people here. The Rooney Rule isn't a quota system in terms of who gets the final job, only in the interview. And even then it's not really a quota because if you want you could interview 100 white guys and 1 black guy and still have stuck to the rules.
The fact is that a lot of the time they are convinced and a black manager who otherwise would have been overlooked gets the job they deserve. This has been borne out in America where, when given there has been a rise in the number of black head coaches in the NFL, not because teams are being forced to hire them, but because when they get a chance to prove themselves in an interview they, surprise surprise, occasionally turn out to be the best candidate for the role.
edit - i actually think the use of the term 'quota system' in the title is confusing people here. The Rooney Rule isn't a quota system in terms of who gets the final job, only in the interview. And even then it's not really a quota because if you want you could interview 100 white guys and 1 black guy and still have stuck to the rules.
In terms of absolute numbers maybe, but certainly not in terms of power.
I don't think that's the point because there are very few black managers with any real experience. I imagine the issue probably lies more in coaching and lower league management.
Ah, Okay, so it's relative... meaning if a job in England is advertised, the quote for Enligsh candidates would be bigger than that of other ethnicities or?
I don't think there's a rigid quota, unless the company itself imposes it, but English candidates will get the bulk of the opportunities.
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Makes more sense, thank you, I didn't understand clearly