Should the FA implement the Rooney Rule ?

[Red_toad]

Why is everyone pretending as if the system is perfectly fine, and the managers are selected because they are in all actuality the best people for the job?

You'd need proof that clubs select potential Managers based on their colour. Barca have had a black manager, United recently had a mixed race manager. There are black managers in the game, as yet only 1 has been relatively successful.
For me the system is geared for successful Managers at the top level, has nothing to do with the colour of their skin.

 

[ivaldo]

No, I mean that you believe there is some signficant genetic difference between a man who plays NFL football and a man who plays EPL football?

If we took a genetically English John Terry at birth, and placed him with a Texas family, then the usual course of youth -> high school -> college football, plus a bunch of steriods and growth hormones, he would probably be a punter for the Kansas City Chiefs right now.

But would that make him black? As almost 3 quarters of NFL players are, opposed to under a 3rd of EPL players.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The rule would be too hard to implement but, I am surprised that some think that the process of hiring Football managers is purely meritocratic.

It clearly isn't. But it's an unusual job in many ways. For some clubs hiring an ex player or a former assistant who knows the club, the staff, the community - who has, perhaps, a particular appeal to the major sponsors - will be more important than hiring someone whose credentials or trophy collection are more impressive.

In short, it would be hard in many cases to prove that discrimination in any meaningful sense of the word has taken place. When you hire a manager you don't put an ad in the local paper and interview X random applicants, choosing the one most suited * - it's not how it works.

* Or rather, you do choose the one you deem most suited - which may or may not be the one who is objectively speaking best qualified for the job. Moyes was clearly less qualified than Maureen - but the board deemed Moyes more suited. If Giggs gets the job when LVG leaves, he won't be anywhere near the most qualified, but he may be deemed the most suited still. And so forth.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

You'd need proof that clubs select potential Managers based on their colour. Barca have had a black manager, United recently had a mixed race manager. There are black managers in the game, as yet only 1 has been relatively successful.
For me the system is geared for successful Managers at the top level, has nothing to do with the colour of their skin.

Very hard to prove. And some forms of institutional racism aren't even a question of conscious choices made by those in power - they're basically too ingrained for that.

Anyway, the fact that there have been black managers here and there arguably only drives the point home. The ratio between top level players and top level managers when it comes to ethnicity is impossible to ignore - and the same is true across the board (on all levels, I mean).

There may be all sorts of reasons for this discrepancy - and part of it has to do with the age of the average manager in professional football, no doubt - but it merits further investigation regardless. As others have said, several former players have voiced concern over the issue - I doubt they're all paranoid, to put it like that.

 

[Blackwidow]

Not in the premiership currently. I think we've only had 1 top level ref (Uriah Rennie) ever.

At the shitty, grass roots level, I've played a various terrible standards for more than 20 years and have never, ever had a black ref.

Actually - that is more embarrassing for me than not having enough managers being black in a country in which just a small percentage of people born in the country are black.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_United_Kingdom#Ethnic_Groups_-_2011_Census_data

According to Wikipedia only 3 % of the ethnic groups in Great Britain are black or Black British. It is more with the active footballers even if you take the not british footballers away from it - but that is the actual generation of players who often are kids of immigrants. There is much less in the generation of 35 to 55 year olds that would qualify for being managers.

When we talk about the Rooney rule in the US we talk about a country with a higher percentage of blacks who are US citizens for "centuries" and a sports with a high percentage of black players. It is just not comparable.

 

[duffer]

Are there many black managers in Germany, Spain or Italy?

 

[Walrus]

So what I would like to know are the demographics on how many minority men/women take (or have got) all their FA coaching badges, comparatively to whites. There seems to be this underlying assumption that there are thousands of brilliantly talented minority candidates who have got their badges and are simply being denied job opportunities. I am not convinced that this is the case.

There do also seem to be certain black ex-players who just expect to be handed a management job in the PL just like that, even though they do not have the record or experience to merit such a position.


I see the Rooney Rule as purely reverse racism and really do not want to see it implemented.

 

[R0nald0]

i hate positive discrimination of every form - it is discrimination!

Somebody else mentioned that the reason is that most managers in the leagues now were players in the 80's and early 90's.... there wasn't many black players playing then and so as the influx of black players came into football in the mid 90's, you'd expect the same rise in black managers in the next 5-10 years.

As a general point, I believe that the best person for the job should get it, and that is through the application and interview process. I don't believe a football club owner would go for a lesser qualified and skilled white manager, over a black manager - be interesting to see what % of applications for a football manager role were from black people...... I'd imagine that it would be significantly less than white people.

As a magnified view on positive discrimination, there aren't ANY women managers in professional football, should we do a similar thing for them?

 

[jojojo]

A Rooney Rule or similar might have no impact, but I can't imagine what harm it would do.

It's not a demand to put a black or ethnic minority candidate in the job because you're the fifth club to pick a manager that year or something. It's a way of placing someone who might not even have been considered for a job, face to face with the decision makers.

So what if it doesn't make any practical difference to the actual hiring decision at Chelsea or United or whoever, they can practice their interview technique. It might well make a difference at a smaller club where the "friend of a friend" system drew up the shortlist. Maybe he'll even stick in the memory of someone at that big club when they're chatting to the directors of another club that's recruiting, but isn't recruiting by headhunting from the top European management shelf.

Take a look at this article about Valencia's assistant manager, a white Scottish coach who met Nuno Santos on a coaching course. Not directly relevant to the Rooney Rule issue of course but a demonstration of how much personal contact can matter in a football coaching career. http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29463560

 

[ItsEssexRob]

i hate positive discrimination of every form - it is discrimination!

Somebody else mentioned that the reason is that most managers in the leagues now were players in the 80's and early 90's.... there wasn't many black players playing then and so as the influx of black players came into football in the mid 90's, you'd expect the same rise in black managers in the next 5-10 years.

As a general point, I believe that the best person for the job should get it, and that is through the application and interview process. I don't believe a football club owner would go for a lesser qualified and skilled white manager, over a black manager - be interesting to see what % of applications for a football manager role were from black people...... I'd imagine that it would be significantly less than white people.

As a magnified view on positive discrimination, there aren't ANY women managers in professional football, should we do a similar thing for them?

Or Asian, or Indian either yet wheres the clamour?

 

[duffer]

Are there many black managers in Germany, Spain or Italy?

Anyone?

 

[jojojo]

Anyone?

There aren't many black Spanish players and most Liga managers are Spanish, so it's not the best or easiest comparison, especially as Spanish football has a reputation for racism.

Rijkaard is the only obvious example I can think of. Maturana managed Atletico in the 90s, but not for long. Maybe I'm forgetting some with smaller clubs, South Americans perhaps.

Seedorf in Italy. Not sure who else.

 

[Raoul]

More rumblings about minority interview problems and the Rooney rule....

Racism in English football overt, says FIFA VP Jeffrey Webb

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/barclays-pr...n-english-football-overt-fifa-vp-jeffrey-webb

Racism in English football is overt and highlighted by the struggles of Chelsea youth coach Eddie Newton to secure a managerial job, FIFA's anti-discrimination chief has claimed.

Jeffrey Webb, who is also a FIFA vice-president and head of the confederation covering the Caribbean, North and Central America (CONCACAF), said the experience of former Chelsea assistant manager Newton had hammered home to him the depth of the problem.

Newton was assistant manager under Roberto Di Matteo when Chelsea won the Champions League in 2012, but Webb said he is now struggling even to get an interview as a manager.

Newton, also former assistant manager at West Brom, is still employed by Chelsea as a technical coach on their youth development programme.

Webb told the Leaders in Sport conference in London: "I don't know how it could be hidden. You have 92 clubs, you have two coaches of colour.

"How many board members or executives are in various club positions or at the FA, in UEFA? So, it's not hidden.

"I hosted a dinner a few months ago, last time I was here. I met a young guy coaching at Chelsea, who was assistant coach and won a Champions League final, doing well.

"He can't even get an interview, Eddie Newton. I'm not talking about getting a job, getting an interview. That's not hidden. That's right in front of your face.''

Webb said the time had come for English football to embrace affirmative action such as the NFL's Rooney rule, which obliges clubs to include an ethnic minority candidate on shortlists for all coaching positions.

Webb added: "In this day and time, in this era, in this century, should we really be having to mandate opportunities for qualified individuals? Sadly, the answer is yes.''

PFA chief executive Gordon Taylor said last week the lack of black coaches underlined "hidden'' racism within the game.

Webb said American owners of English clubs could help push through change.

He said: "It's hidden from a discussion standpoint. No one wants to deal with it. No one wants to deal with it from a commercial standpoint.

"It has to come within. It has to come from the clubs. It has to start with clubs. It has to start with ownership.

"How many American owners do we have from English Premier League clubs in the U.K.?

"So, why have certain standards here and then, of course, in the U.S., in the NFL leagues, where you live, where you conduct business, you live by different standards? Why?

"If it's good there, why wouldn't it be good here?''

Webb added that there was a "huge challenge'' with the next World Cup taking place in Russia, which has been the scene for numerous incidents of racism in football. UEFA last week ordered CSKA Moscow to play three European matches behind closed doors after racist incidents involving fans.

The PFA and Kick It Out have both pressed for the Rooney rule to be introduced in English football, but the authorities have so far resisted the move.

Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho said there was "no racism in football'' when asked for his view of the Rooney rule last week.

 

[vanthaman]

More rumblings about minority interview problems and the Rooney rule....

Racism in English football overt, says FIFA VP Jeffrey Webb

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/barclays-pr...n-english-football-overt-fifa-vp-jeffrey-webb

Mike Phelan has won more than Eddie Newton yet can't get a job either

It's got nothing to do with race.

I wish they would list what jobs Newton applied for, probably championship and above, bet if he applied for league 2 he'd probably get one, same with phelan

 

[Raoul]

Mike Phelan has won more than Eddie Newton yet can't get a job either

It's got nothing to do with race.

I wish they would list what jobs Newton applied for, probably championship and above, bet if he applied for league 2 he'd probably get one, same with phelan

If it has nothing to do with race, then why the disproportionate lack of minority managers ?

 

[Kallech33]

Anyone?

There were 2 mixed race coaches in Germany in the 80's and 90's. Jimmy Hartwig and Erwin Kostedde.

Spoiler

Jimmy Hartwig

Erwin Kostedde

They both played for the German national team in the 70's. Their coaching spells were very short and they never coached a professional team (which were only the top 2 leagues at the time I think).

At the moment there is Otto Addo a former international for Ghana who lived his whole life in Germany and got his coaching licence last year. He's coaching the U19 in Hamburg since 2010 and was the interim coach for Hamburg in the Bundesliga in 2013 together with the Argentinian Rodolfo Cardoso who's also a youth coach at Hamburg. Neither had a professional coaching license at the time and they needed a exception ruling from the German FA to coach in the Bundesliga for a limited time.

Spoiler

Otto Addo

The only black coach of a professional team is Babacar N’Diaye (I'm not sure if he has a professional coaching license yet). He is the assistant coach of 3rd league club Preußen Münster.
He came from Senegal to Germany when he was 19 and played his whole career for various clubs in Germany from the Bundesliga down to the 6th league.

Spoiler

Babacar N’Diaye

So in short, no, there are no black coaches in the Bundesliga.
But there also are and were not as many black German players (or black population overall) as in Britain.

The bigger question is rather why there aren't more Turkish/Germans of Turkish ancestry coaches in the Bundesliga when you consider that Turkish people or Germans of Turkish ancestry make up a considerable proportion of the population.

There is only Tayfun Korkut I think. He was born in Germany, spent the most of his career in Turkey and Spain and was a Turkish international.
Then he started his coaching career in Spain as a youth coach (3 years at Real Sociedad U19).
He was a youth coach for 3 years at Hoffenheim and Stuttgart while he made his professional coaching license.
He was the assistant coach of the Turkish NT for a year and is now the head coach of Hannover 96 in the Bundesliga since December 2013.

Spoiler

Tayfun Korkut

 

[vanthaman]

If it has nothing to do with race, then why the disproportionate lack of minority managers ?

I was talking about Eddie Newton. The article implied he should get jobs because "he's won the champions league" he was at Chelsea for like 3 months. It's taken di Matteo 2 years to get a managers job since. Eddie newtons experience is managing a kids team and being assistant at west brom for a bit then a few months at Chelsea, hardly worthy of being given a decent managers job is it.

If more minority people took their coaching badges maybe more would get jobs, currently about 7% of uefa pro coaching badge holders are non white, that is the problem. If the chairmen are supposedly racist the rooney rule won't do feck all anyway as they would interview them and just give someone else the job.

You shouldn't have to give someone an interview because of their ethnicity, everyone in the world should be treated equally no matter who they are or where they are from

What next? Every team has to interview a man, a woman, a transgender, a pensioner and a disabled person?

 

[Raoul]

I was talking about Eddie Newton. The article implied he should get jobs because "he's won the champions league" he was at Chelsea for like 3 months. It's taken di Matteo 2 years to get a managers job since. Eddie newtons experience is managing a kids team and being assistant at west brom for a bit then a few months at Chelsea, hardly worthy of being given a decent managers job is it.

If more minority people took their coaching badges maybe more would get jobs, currently about 7% of uefa pro coaching badge holders are non white, that is the problem. If the chairmen are supposedly racist the rooney rule won't do feck all anyway as they would interview them and just give someone else the job.

You shouldn't have to give someone an interview because of their ethnicity, everyone in the world should be treated equally no matter who they are or where they are from

What next? Every team has to interview a man, a woman, a transgender, a pensioner and a disabled person?

I suppose a good starting point would be whether or not employment discrimination based on race exists in society. If No then all arguments stop here and we move on. If yes, then it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest it exists in Football, just as it would in many other areas, in which case the discussion would go forward in terms of how best to alleviate it, which is generally what this thread is about.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

There aren't many black Spanish players and most Liga managers are Spanish, so it's not the best or easiest comparison, especially as Spanish football has a reputation for racism.

Rijkaard is the only obvious example I can think of. Maturana managed Atletico in the 90s, but not for long. Maybe I'm forgetting some with smaller clubs, South Americans perhaps.

Seedorf in Italy. Not sure who else.

Be interesting what it is like in France, who through their African ties, appear to have a large black population and have many black players. How many black managers/coaches have they?

 

[MPTutd]

I find it a little ridiculous to be honest. Surely the best manager will get the job regardless of their skin colour.

I have been saying for years that as a white, middle-class, straight, married, middle-earning Male I get nothing in the UK.

 

[Eboue]

Must be hard.

 

[Revan]

Anyone?

Nope, there aren't. However, I think that also the percentage of black people (and by default, black players) are way more lower on those states. Balotelli might be the only Italian player who is black. So obviously, you can't expect black managers in Italy, especially considering that almost always clubs go for an Italian manager. I guess the situation is (almost) the same in Germany/Spain and as jojojo mentioned the only 2 black managers I remember are Riijkard and Seedorf.

Personally I don't think that this rule will bring anything. Clubs will do the formality but they will go for the manager they want. And until we have better black managers, they won't get those jobs. In fact, it would be very interesting how many black coaches in England have done their badges and are actually eligible to coach.

 

[lysglimt]

I don't have access to such stats, but the main reason for bringing up this issue is the fact that there is a discrepancy between the percentage of black players (20-30%) and black managers (1% or less). I think the main reason for that is historical. Most managers are 50-60 years old. They played their football 30-40 years ago. At that time there was a very small number of back players, so logically there is a small number of black managers now. In the future this will change, I expect in 20-30 years to have a much bigger percentage of black managers due to natural processes that will filter the current players into management
I think forcing the Rooney rule will be counter productive. Next time a black manager is hired everyone will question if he was hired on merit, or because of the rule.

Well actually you are wrong about the age stuff - it's a myth that the majority of football managers are 50-60 years old.

Born 1970 or later -30 managers in the league
Born 1965-1969 - 18 managers in the League

So about 50% of all managers are yet to turn 50.

 

[saivet]

Are there many black managers in Germany, Spain or Italy?

How about France? Plenty of black and minority players for the national team and in Ligue 1.

 

[Kallech33]

Nope, there aren't. However, I think that also the percentage of black people (and by default, black players) are way more lower on those states. Balotelli might be the only Italian player who is black. So obviously, you can't expect black managers in Italy, especially considering that almost always clubs go for an Italian manager. I guess the situation is (almost) the same in Germany/Spain and as jojojo mentioned the only 2 black managers I remember are Riijkard and Seedorf.

Personally I don't think that this rule will bring anything. Clubs will do the formality but they will go for the manager they want. And until we have better black managers, they won't get those jobs. In fact, it would be very interesting how many black coaches in England have done their badges and are actually eligible to coach.

I'd add Ruud Gullit to those 2. I think he won the FA cup with Chelsea in the 90's as their manager.

 

[BobbyManc]

Or Asian, or Indian either yet wheres the clamour?

What percentage of professional players in England are Asian? Therein lies the answer to your question.

 

[R0nald0]

Everyone seems to have missed the point made above that only 7% of pro licence badge holders are non-white. Why does anybody expect more than 7% of managers to be non-white in that case?

 

[gormless]

Well Dave Whelan is a living, breathing example of why it should be considered