I think, despite so much awfulness, my biggest problem was......where was the fun? It was just such a massively depressingly dour 90 minutes of TV really, maybe except the sappy ending part, but by that point you've given up anyway. I haven't rewatched any of this show, but at least while at times the ridiculous was there, I was having fun in the earlier seasons watching, the first and third episodes did absolutely nothing for me this year.
Sherlock
- Thread starter CheadleBeagle
- Start date
Absolutely. Failing to properly acknowledge the importance of their own cliffhanger (shit as it was) just cheapens the show. I mean, why should we care, if the writing is so trite?
Also does anyone hate the villains for being annoying rather than evil? I know we are supposed to hate them for being bad but Moriarty and Eurus just came across as irritating to me.
There's never any tension, because you know they'll never let the characters get in any real trouble. Or make any real decisions with consequence.
Yeah, they're like Doctor Evil without the satire. "Why are you killing all these people?!" "Because I am *pauses, raises little finger* evil."
Thought it was really good until the ending.
I enjoyed Eurus' torturing of Sherlock & was hoping it would have a more intense ending with John drowning, Mycroft dead & Sherlock's life in tatters. Instead they went the easy route & now Eurus is locked up & everyone is happy & safe. Not sure if Moffat wrote this but he has a habit of having a soft/weak/lovey ending every year on Dr Who so I'm not completely surprised this went the same way.
Also, why can't Mary just fecking stay dead? What's with her & Moriarty recording all these videos? And how did Eurus get them transported to their old home so easily?
I feel this show has run its course. Was absolutely amazing for the first 2 seasons but the quality has dropped & the long wait times between each season aren't great. Seems the right time to end it.
I enjoyed Eurus' torturing of Sherlock & was hoping it would have a more intense ending with John drowning, Mycroft dead & Sherlock's life in tatters. Instead they went the easy route & now Eurus is locked up & everyone is happy & safe. Not sure if Moffat wrote this but he has a habit of having a soft/weak/lovey ending every year on Dr Who so I'm not completely surprised this went the same way.
Also, why can't Mary just fecking stay dead? What's with her & Moriarty recording all these videos? And how did Eurus get them transported to their old home so easily?
I feel this show has run its course. Was absolutely amazing for the first 2 seasons but the quality has dropped & the long wait times between each season aren't great. Seems the right time to end it.
Eurus was such a terrible villain. Saying she was over-powered is a quite an understatement. She might as well been Thanos from the Marvel universe. Conclusion to her arc in the episode was garbage as well. Ending montage was obviously tagged on to turn this into a series finale (little chance of another episode very soon given the non-availability of the actors) and felt horribly out of place after such an episode.
The show has been pretty poor for me since the first episode of season 3. Writers ruined it in an attempt to one up themselves with twists at every turn.
The show has been pretty poor for me since the first episode of season 3. Writers ruined it in an attempt to one up themselves with twists at every turn.
I don't get it, where were Captain America and Hawkeye?
Saw this as a top comment on that review
Eurus: I have a master plan to finally break Sherlock!
Moriarty: Ah, wonderful! What's my part of the plan?
Eurus: Well first you, of your own accord, have to come up with a series of impossible mysteries for Sherlock to solve.
Moriarty: Okay...sounds like I'm doing a lot of the work...
Eurus: And then you have to let Sherlock outsmart you, and pretend to be so upset that you kill yourself.
Moriarty: So I *pretend* to kill myself?
Eurus: No, actually kill yourself.
Moriarty: So just...okay...once again, sounds like I'm doing *a lot* of the--
Eurus: Now, before you die, I need you to record some close-ups of yourself saying the following phrases...
*She hands Moriarty a script which he leafs through*
Moriarty: Most of this is train noises! Are you going to be doing ANY of the work?
Eurus: Oh of course! I'm going to dress up as Zoe Dechanel on a bus and seduce Watson.
Moriarty: Oh, that's clever! Wait, why?
Eurus: For...uh...to be a sort of mysterious and foreboding presence in Sherlock's life.
Moriarty: Right, in *Sherlock's* life. So why torture Watson?
Eurus: So I can shoot him.
Moriarty: Ah! Brilliant! Killing Watson will--
Eurus: No, no. Just with a tranquilizer gun.
Moriarty: But...why?
Eurus: To announce that I'm Sherlock's sister! And then he'll tell Sherlock!
Moriarty: So you're going to tell him you're Sherlock's sister and then shoot Watson...on the bus?
Eurus: Oh! No. I'm also going to pretend to be Watson's therapist, who will *not* be Zoe Dechanel.
Moriarty: So you can pointlessly shoot Watson with a tranq?
Eurus: Precisely! AND, to *really* be a nuisance, or something, I'm also going to pretend to be a girl that Sherlock will be investigating on an unrelated case that I'll have no idea he'll be investigating in 5 years because it would be literally impossible for me to anticipate that. But rest assured I'll dress up as *someone* related to *some* case, and that someone will leave Sherlock a note with "Miss me?" written in invisible ink!
Moriarty: Miss me...that's on the script you handed me.
Eurus: Exactly! I'm going to play a video of you saying "Miss me?" to Sherlock so he thinks you're still alive!
Moriarty: But I won't be...Ohhhh! So we're going to set up an elaborate mystery *before* I die so that it will appear to Sherlock that I've set it up *after* my death! He'll think I'm still alive, and it'll drive him craz--
Eurus: Right, right, but no. No, there won't be an elaborate mystery under your guise. Just little notes that say "Miss me?" Because in actuality it'll be *me* he's missed! Not you! Then once I've revealed myself as his sister, I'll make him go through a gauntlet of deduction! And *thennn* use those fun train sounds which you're going to record for dramatic effect!
Moriarty: But then...excuse me, madam, why do you need me for your plot at all?
Eurus: To confuse the audience!
Moriarty: Ah, wonderful! What's my part of the plan?
Eurus: Well first you, of your own accord, have to come up with a series of impossible mysteries for Sherlock to solve.
Moriarty: Okay...sounds like I'm doing a lot of the work...
Eurus: And then you have to let Sherlock outsmart you, and pretend to be so upset that you kill yourself.
Moriarty: So I *pretend* to kill myself?
Eurus: No, actually kill yourself.
Moriarty: So just...okay...once again, sounds like I'm doing *a lot* of the--
Eurus: Now, before you die, I need you to record some close-ups of yourself saying the following phrases...
*She hands Moriarty a script which he leafs through*
Moriarty: Most of this is train noises! Are you going to be doing ANY of the work?
Eurus: Oh of course! I'm going to dress up as Zoe Dechanel on a bus and seduce Watson.
Moriarty: Oh, that's clever! Wait, why?
Eurus: For...uh...to be a sort of mysterious and foreboding presence in Sherlock's life.
Moriarty: Right, in *Sherlock's* life. So why torture Watson?
Eurus: So I can shoot him.
Moriarty: Ah! Brilliant! Killing Watson will--
Eurus: No, no. Just with a tranquilizer gun.
Moriarty: But...why?
Eurus: To announce that I'm Sherlock's sister! And then he'll tell Sherlock!
Moriarty: So you're going to tell him you're Sherlock's sister and then shoot Watson...on the bus?
Eurus: Oh! No. I'm also going to pretend to be Watson's therapist, who will *not* be Zoe Dechanel.
Moriarty: So you can pointlessly shoot Watson with a tranq?
Eurus: Precisely! AND, to *really* be a nuisance, or something, I'm also going to pretend to be a girl that Sherlock will be investigating on an unrelated case that I'll have no idea he'll be investigating in 5 years because it would be literally impossible for me to anticipate that. But rest assured I'll dress up as *someone* related to *some* case, and that someone will leave Sherlock a note with "Miss me?" written in invisible ink!
Moriarty: Miss me...that's on the script you handed me.
Eurus: Exactly! I'm going to play a video of you saying "Miss me?" to Sherlock so he thinks you're still alive!
Moriarty: But I won't be...Ohhhh! So we're going to set up an elaborate mystery *before* I die so that it will appear to Sherlock that I've set it up *after* my death! He'll think I'm still alive, and it'll drive him craz--
Eurus: Right, right, but no. No, there won't be an elaborate mystery under your guise. Just little notes that say "Miss me?" Because in actuality it'll be *me* he's missed! Not you! Then once I've revealed myself as his sister, I'll make him go through a gauntlet of deduction! And *thennn* use those fun train sounds which you're going to record for dramatic effect!
Moriarty: But then...excuse me, madam, why do you need me for your plot at all?
Eurus: To confuse the audience!
seriously what was that? Saw with Doctor Who in it?
I dont understand what happened in the end. Eurus was evil but then it turned out that was all a ruse to ask sherlock for help? Thats so complicatedly stupid. Plus Mycroft is this genius rivalling sherlock yet most of season 4 has him down like a village idiot following sherlock and watson and existing just to authorise their way into things
i liked 2 things though. The Mycroft disguise which I had thought was sherlock and the glass thing with eurus.
i actually thought the ending would be something like it was sherlock who actually killed the dog and not her but mycroft and her parents thought it was her and locked her up.
I dont understand what happened in the end. Eurus was evil but then it turned out that was all a ruse to ask sherlock for help? Thats so complicatedly stupid. Plus Mycroft is this genius rivalling sherlock yet most of season 4 has him down like a village idiot following sherlock and watson and existing just to authorise their way into things
i liked 2 things though. The Mycroft disguise which I had thought was sherlock and the glass thing with eurus.
i actually thought the ending would be something like it was sherlock who actually killed the dog and not her but mycroft and her parents thought it was her and locked her up.
Saw this as a top comment on that review
Eurus: I have a master plan to finally break Sherlock!
Moriarty: Ah, wonderful! What's my part of the plan?
Eurus: Well first you, of your own accord, have to come up with a series of impossible mysteries for Sherlock to solve.
Moriarty: Okay...sounds like I'm doing a lot of the work...
Eurus: And then you have to let Sherlock outsmart you, and pretend to be so upset that you kill yourself.
Moriarty: So I *pretend* to kill myself?
Eurus: No, actually kill yourself.
Moriarty: So just...okay...once again, sounds like I'm doing *a lot* of the--
Eurus: Now, before you die, I need you to record some close-ups of yourself saying the following phrases...
*She hands Moriarty a script which he leafs through*
Moriarty: Most of this is train noises! Are you going to be doing ANY of the work?
Eurus: Oh of course! I'm going to dress up as Zoe Dechanel on a bus and seduce Watson.
Moriarty: Oh, that's clever! Wait, why?
Eurus: For...uh...to be a sort of mysterious and foreboding presence in Sherlock's life.
Moriarty: Right, in *Sherlock's* life. So why torture Watson?
Eurus: So I can shoot him.
Moriarty: Ah! Brilliant! Killing Watson will--
Eurus: No, no. Just with a tranquilizer gun.
Moriarty: But...why?
Eurus: To announce that I'm Sherlock's sister! And then he'll tell Sherlock!
Moriarty: So you're going to tell him you're Sherlock's sister and then shoot Watson...on the bus?
Eurus: Oh! No. I'm also going to pretend to be Watson's therapist, who will *not* be Zoe Dechanel.
Moriarty: So you can pointlessly shoot Watson with a tranq?
Eurus: Precisely! AND, to *really* be a nuisance, or something, I'm also going to pretend to be a girl that Sherlock will be investigating on an unrelated case that I'll have no idea he'll be investigating in 5 years because it would be literally impossible for me to anticipate that. But rest assured I'll dress up as *someone* related to *some* case, and that someone will leave Sherlock a note with "Miss me?" written in invisible ink!
Moriarty: Miss me...that's on the script you handed me.
Eurus: Exactly! I'm going to play a video of you saying "Miss me?" to Sherlock so he thinks you're still alive!
Moriarty: But I won't be...Ohhhh! So we're going to set up an elaborate mystery *before* I die so that it will appear to Sherlock that I've set it up *after* my death! He'll think I'm still alive, and it'll drive him craz--
Eurus: Right, right, but no. No, there won't be an elaborate mystery under your guise. Just little notes that say "Miss me?" Because in actuality it'll be *me* he's missed! Not you! Then once I've revealed myself as his sister, I'll make him go through a gauntlet of deduction! And *thennn* use those fun train sounds which you're going to record for dramatic effect!
Moriarty: But then...excuse me, madam, why do you need me for your plot at all?
Eurus: To confuse the audience!
It's unfortunate they ditched the idea of Sherlock and Moriarty teaming up against the Euro.
gives england a better chance then?
"Most of this is train noises..."Saw this as a top comment on that review
Eurus: I have a master plan to finally break Sherlock!
Moriarty: Ah, wonderful! What's my part of the plan?
Eurus: Well first you, of your own accord, have to come up with a series of impossible mysteries for Sherlock to solve.
Moriarty: Okay...sounds like I'm doing a lot of the work...
Eurus: And then you have to let Sherlock outsmart you, and pretend to be so upset that you kill yourself.
Moriarty: So I *pretend* to kill myself?
Eurus: No, actually kill yourself.
Moriarty: So just...okay...once again, sounds like I'm doing *a lot* of the--
Eurus: Now, before you die, I need you to record some close-ups of yourself saying the following phrases...
*She hands Moriarty a script which he leafs through*
Moriarty: Most of this is train noises! Are you going to be doing ANY of the work?
Eurus: Oh of course! I'm going to dress up as Zoe Dechanel on a bus and seduce Watson.
Moriarty: Oh, that's clever! Wait, why?
Eurus: For...uh...to be a sort of mysterious and foreboding presence in Sherlock's life.
Moriarty: Right, in *Sherlock's* life. So why torture Watson?
Eurus: So I can shoot him.
Moriarty: Ah! Brilliant! Killing Watson will--
Eurus: No, no. Just with a tranquilizer gun.
Moriarty: But...why?
Eurus: To announce that I'm Sherlock's sister! And then he'll tell Sherlock!
Moriarty: So you're going to tell him you're Sherlock's sister and then shoot Watson...on the bus?
Eurus: Oh! No. I'm also going to pretend to be Watson's therapist, who will *not* be Zoe Dechanel.
Moriarty: So you can pointlessly shoot Watson with a tranq?
Eurus: Precisely! AND, to *really* be a nuisance, or something, I'm also going to pretend to be a girl that Sherlock will be investigating on an unrelated case that I'll have no idea he'll be investigating in 5 years because it would be literally impossible for me to anticipate that. But rest assured I'll dress up as *someone* related to *some* case, and that someone will leave Sherlock a note with "Miss me?" written in invisible ink!
Moriarty: Miss me...that's on the script you handed me.
Eurus: Exactly! I'm going to play a video of you saying "Miss me?" to Sherlock so he thinks you're still alive!
Moriarty: But I won't be...Ohhhh! So we're going to set up an elaborate mystery *before* I die so that it will appear to Sherlock that I've set it up *after* my death! He'll think I'm still alive, and it'll drive him craz--
Eurus: Right, right, but no. No, there won't be an elaborate mystery under your guise. Just little notes that say "Miss me?" Because in actuality it'll be *me* he's missed! Not you! Then once I've revealed myself as his sister, I'll make him go through a gauntlet of deduction! And *thennn* use those fun train sounds which you're going to record for dramatic effect!
Moriarty: But then...excuse me, madam, why do you need me for your plot at all?
Eurus: To confuse the audience!
I've seen people suggest they didn't have enough screen time to achieve what they wanted so had to rush. They had three feature length episodes! A trilogy of films!
Ha, get to f*ck.Guardian said:
Saw this as a top comment on that review
Eurus: I have a master plan to finally break Sherlock!
Moriarty: Ah, wonderful! What's my part of the plan?
Eurus: Well first you, of your own accord, have to come up with a series of impossible mysteries for Sherlock to solve.
Moriarty: Okay...sounds like I'm doing a lot of the work...
Eurus: And then you have to let Sherlock outsmart you, and pretend to be so upset that you kill yourself.
Moriarty: So I *pretend* to kill myself?
Eurus: No, actually kill yourself.
Moriarty: So just...okay...once again, sounds like I'm doing *a lot* of the--
Eurus: Now, before you die, I need you to record some close-ups of yourself saying the following phrases...
*She hands Moriarty a script which he leafs through*
Moriarty: Most of this is train noises! Are you going to be doing ANY of the work?
Eurus: Oh of course! I'm going to dress up as Zoe Dechanel on a bus and seduce Watson.
Moriarty: Oh, that's clever! Wait, why?
Eurus: For...uh...to be a sort of mysterious and foreboding presence in Sherlock's life.
Moriarty: Right, in *Sherlock's* life. So why torture Watson?
Eurus: So I can shoot him.
Moriarty: Ah! Brilliant! Killing Watson will--
Eurus: No, no. Just with a tranquilizer gun.
Moriarty: But...why?
Eurus: To announce that I'm Sherlock's sister! And then he'll tell Sherlock!
Moriarty: So you're going to tell him you're Sherlock's sister and then shoot Watson...on the bus?
Eurus: Oh! No. I'm also going to pretend to be Watson's therapist, who will *not* be Zoe Dechanel.
Moriarty: So you can pointlessly shoot Watson with a tranq?
Eurus: Precisely! AND, to *really* be a nuisance, or something, I'm also going to pretend to be a girl that Sherlock will be investigating on an unrelated case that I'll have no idea he'll be investigating in 5 years because it would be literally impossible for me to anticipate that. But rest assured I'll dress up as *someone* related to *some* case, and that someone will leave Sherlock a note with "Miss me?" written in invisible ink!
Moriarty: Miss me...that's on the script you handed me.
Eurus: Exactly! I'm going to play a video of you saying "Miss me?" to Sherlock so he thinks you're still alive!
Moriarty: But I won't be...Ohhhh! So we're going to set up an elaborate mystery *before* I die so that it will appear to Sherlock that I've set it up *after* my death! He'll think I'm still alive, and it'll drive him craz--
Eurus: Right, right, but no. No, there won't be an elaborate mystery under your guise. Just little notes that say "Miss me?" Because in actuality it'll be *me* he's missed! Not you! Then once I've revealed myself as his sister, I'll make him go through a gauntlet of deduction! And *thennn* use those fun train sounds which you're going to record for dramatic effect!
Moriarty: But then...excuse me, madam, why do you need me for your plot at all?
Eurus: To confuse the audience!
From IMDB:
...and, from another poster, some justification for all the twists (using some valid examples and some which are invalid, plain bad & completely unfair to the reader or viewer):
'Yeah man, I'm Sherlock. I'm really good at deducing stuff and things. I've got this really cool trick where I tell someone their life story just by looking at them. Apart from if you ask me to look at their face, can't do faces. And god forbid don't ask me whether or not there is a pane of glass in the window or not.'
I really think this is the issue with Sherlock, and has been since they stopped sticking to the source material closely. Both Gatiss and Moffat can create reasonable dialogue and did a decent job of modernising the story lines, but when tasked with creating interesting stories to tell with their character they just have no idea.
Which leads to these ridiculous stories of Sherlock bumbling around like a massive idiot with absolutely no idea before he pulls some theory out of his arse or his bumbling idiocy is explained away as a convenient device for him to save the day. Basically the only story telling device they seem to have is Sherlock missing things that he should see before conveniently remembering that he's smart in the nick of time.
Oh that and the fact Moffat and Gatiss either don't trust themselves to write a story worthy of in-universe's Sherlock, or simply can't. So they try and obscure the fact the story is almost always an unwieldy mess that doesn't make any sense through a series of incoherent twists and turns intended to leave the viewer confused, and to allow themselves the defence of 'the thicko plebs just didn't get it'.
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Is it still okay if I quite enjoyed it though?
I'm asking for a friend...
I'm asking for a friend...
No denying it was enjoyable. Equally though, at the same time the amount of things they did wrong annoyed me.
I reckon it's the amount of kids TV I have to watch with my 3 year old son that makes me enjoy most adult TV these days, even when it has plot holes the size of Saturn.
Compared to two hours of Peppa Pig, Paw Patrol and Mr Tumble, that Sherlock episode was like watching Pulp Fiction
In fairness to the writers: the Doyle stories are deceptively simple - in style, in prose - but it's no easy thing to get the deductive element just right. Very difficult, in fact.
Comparing Sherlock to Rashomon is abominable. I realise they weren't doing it directly but ffs.
The Jimmy Saville one was good
Yep. It's like comparing The Usual Suspects with Citizen Kane.
Reminded me of Doctor Who really. Story wrecked by writers desperate to make every minute about the end of the universe or equivalent.
All charm lost.
All charm lost.
Just saw this again on reddit, honestly can't sum this show up better than this:
Just saw this again on reddit, honestly can't sum this show up better than this:
This is what I was referring to earlier in the thread.
He wasn't written like that in the early eps, tbf. Back when the character beats spawned naturally from the mysteries, rather than the mysteries spawning from the character beats...
I've had a little rewatch of eps 1,3, 4 & 6 over the last couple of days. 6 - The Reichenbach one - is where it starts to go wrong for me. Where it stops trying to solve cool, semi-plausible Conan Doyle inspired mysteries, and starts getting super pleased with itself and its own mythology. It's also the first truly Moriarty heavy episode, which probably isn't a coincidence, considering he contributes considerably to the tilt into camp comic book world.
I've had a little rewatch of eps 1,3, 4 & 6 over the last couple of days. 6 - The Reichenbach one - is where it starts to go wrong for me. Where it stops trying to solve cool, semi-plausible Conan Doyle inspired mysteries, and starts getting super pleased with itself and its own mythology. It's also the first truly Moriarty heavy episode, which probably isn't a coincidence, considering he contributes considerably to the tilt into camp comic book world.
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You saved me a task there. I was going to rewatch them to figure out if it was as good/different as I remember in the original eps. I might still rewatch to be fair, so I can discuss it with a friend. I have a friend who only started watching from series 3, and he enjoyed it (haven't asked him about series 4 yet) so I sent him series 1 and 2 this week. Will be interesting to find the perspective of somebody who has watched the thing back to front and see if he notices any difference?
Would be. Those eps are still good (the pilot in particular is very tight and impressive) but I left out the middle ones 'cos I remember them being the weakest of the originals. Baskerville in particular was solved because the killer had been wearing a T-shirt with the logo of his super secret organisation on it FFS!...Still, at least that was actually an answer.
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Eurus and her weird mind control shite reminded me of Kilgrave off Jessica Jones. The fact she's more comparable to a Marvel villain with superpowers than anything remotely realistic says it all about the direction this show took.
There's no way she'd be able to pick up those people skills or be that savvy about the modern world by living in the confined space she was locked up in.
I refuse to believe she'd waste her time looking for terrorists on twitter while there's Trump twitting.
Yeah, those funny cat pix are too distracting anyway.
That was so disappointing. For me the problem has been, in first two seasons, the super-human things can be explained with logic, reason and deduction and though there maybe few flaws, they can be overlooked. Season 4 especially though has so much of shit which is not super-human due to superior deduction ability but impossible nonsense along with lot more unexplainable flaws in storyline. A Sherlock punched by John before he visits Irene Adler had more injuries than Sherlock jumping through window when grenade explosion destroys the house more or less ff! A pure evil who controls minds of everyone and lectures on moral code etc is just an emotional wreck in the end and a hug from brother sorts everything out. feck this shit. Hope it is end of it. I will stick to watching seasons 1 and 2 on repeat than hope for a next season.
I actually enjoyed it quite a lot. The criticism made here is probably right, but I was engrossed in the episode from start to finish and felt like it was a good way to finish the series. The past couple of seasons weren't as good as the 2 first ones, but I think it's actually a difficult task, given the format of the show, to come up with something consistently good once the 'element of surprise' around the show is gone and they have to build around character development and relationships. There were still some very good episodes in the last 2 seasons, so it's a show that I'd come back to and not necessarily watch all the episodes but some I would quite fondly, I think.
So...
Why did Eurus shoot Watson with a tranquiliser?
Why did Eurus shoot Watson with a tranquiliser?
They should have just stuck to the original stories and gave them a modern twist. It's become contrived garbage.
Oh well, at least Will Ferrell's version should bring back some much needed sense to the character.