Sheep Draft Final: Enigma/TRV vs 2mufc0

[Moby]

I can conduct a football quiz of five random questions. Whoever replies to the PMs the fastest (all 5 times combined) wins.

 

[Ecstatic]

I will look at the game tomorrow and comment it for sure

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm fine with whatever @Skizzo and @Pat_Mustard decide. Even sharing it, or extending the poll with 3-4 hrs or something for new voters to decide it.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I can conduct a football quiz of five random questions. Whoever replies to the PMs the fastest (all 5 times combined) wins.

Do you have to be one of the finalists to participate and win the draft?

 

[Don Alfredo]

Do you have to be one of the finalists to participate and win the draft?

Shared winners sounds like a great solution tbf. You only need pens to decide who advances, but you don't have to do that here.

 

[Enigma_87]

Shared winners sounds like a great solution tbf. You only need pens to decide who advances, but you don't have to do that here.

Yeah, penos are really crap way to decide, doesn’t add up anything.

The only downside is not enjoying another Pat hosted penos

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I have an idea to eliminate future draws.

After the drafting is finished, a committee of neutrals ranks the drafted teams in order of the quality of each team and gives points to each (1 to 16). Only to be revealed when draws are settled.

In the case of a draw, we add up the ranks of all the opponents (including the current round that ended in a draw) that each team faced.

The total would give you an idea of the quality of opponents each team faced en route and whoever faced the better quality of teams wins the game.

Since the draws are luck based, the team that faced tougher opponents should be a little more deserving.

 

[Physiocrat]

I have an idea to eliminate future draws.

After the drafting is finished, a committee of neutrals ranks the drafted teams in order of the quality of each team and gives points to each (1 to 16). Only to be revealed when draws are settled.

In the case of a draw, we add up the ranks of all the opponents (including the current round that ended in a draw) that each team faced.

The total would give you an idea of the quality of opponents each team faced en route and whoever faced the better quality of teams wins the game.

Since the draws are luck based, the team that faced tougher opponents should be a little more deserving.

That's a very interesting idea

 

[Skizzo]

Congratulations @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper @2mufc0

You’re all winners.

Or losers.

Maybe we’re all winners really.

 

[Don Alfredo]

Congrats @2mufc0 @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper , deserved winners

 

[Indnyc]

Congratulations @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper @2mufc0

Wonderful teams and deserved winners

 

[Indnyc]

I have an idea to eliminate future draws.

After the drafting is finished, a committee of neutrals ranks the drafted teams in order of the quality of each team and gives points to each (1 to 16). Only to be revealed when draws are settled.

In the case of a draw, we add up the ranks of all the opponents (including the current round that ended in a draw) that each team faced.

The total would give you an idea of the quality of opponents each team faced en route and whoever faced the better quality of teams wins the game.

Since the draws are luck based, the team that faced tougher opponents should be a little more deserving.

I like!

 

[MJJ]

I have an idea to eliminate future draws.

After the drafting is finished, a committee of neutrals ranks the drafted teams in order of the quality of each team and gives points to each (1 to 16). Only to be revealed when draws are settled.

In the case of a draw, we add up the ranks of all the opponents (including the current round that ended in a draw) that each team faced.

The total would give you an idea of the quality of opponents each team faced en route and whoever faced the better quality of teams wins the game.

Since the draws are luck based, the team that faced tougher opponents should be a little more deserving.

This!

Dont need neutrals though, get the 16 managers, mod, 2/3 neutrals and you have a pool of 20 which should eliminate any bias.

 

[Physiocrat]

I have an idea to eliminate future draws.

After the drafting is finished, a committee of neutrals ranks the drafted teams in order of the quality of each team and gives points to each (1 to 16). Only to be revealed when draws are settled.

In the case of a draw, we add up the ranks of all the opponents (including the current round that ended in a draw) that each team faced.

The total would give you an idea of the quality of opponents each team faced en route and whoever faced the better quality of teams wins the game.

Since the draws are luck based, the team that faced tougher opponents should be a little more deserving.

One problem with this is that whilst a side may have faced an overall superior side they could have had a glaring mismatch in one area which meant they won but would give them lots of points with this method (I suffered that when we did an 80s and 90s draft and my side was I think much better overall but he had Ronaldinho and I had Rafael at right-back). That said I still think it's worthy of consideration, it's just a potential problem.

Edit- it also wouldn't work in R1

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Edit- it also wouldn't work in R1

I did take care of R1.

In the case of a draw, we add up the ranks of all the opponents (including the current round that ended in a draw) that each team faced.

So for R1, whichever team was better rated by the committee loses as it drew against a lower ranked team than themselves

 

[Indnyc]

One problem with this is that whilst a side may have faced an overall superior side they could have had a glaring mismatch in one area which meant they won but would give them lots of points with this method (I suffered that when we did an 80s and 90s draft and my side was I think much better overall but he had Ronaldinho and I had Rafael at right-back). That said I still think it's worthy of consideration, it's just a potential problem.

Edit- it also wouldn't work in R1

You could always just do the ranking and in case of a draw the team with highest rank wins.

It rewards good initial drafting rather than reinforcement which is sometimes more luck based

 

[Physiocrat]

I did take care of R1.

So for R1, whichever team was better rated by the committee loses as it drew against a lower ranked team than themselves

Sorry, missed that bit.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Dont need neutrals though, get the 16 managers, mod, 2/3 neutrals and you have a pool of 20 which should eliminate any bias.

I thought of that too but you lads take forever to make a pick. The draft master would probably have to beg the 16 guys to send something in

 

[MJJ]

I thought of that too but you lads take forever to make a pick. The draft master would probably have to beg the 16 guys to send something in

ahh new junkies.

Make a rule that you have to send in your vote before your match can be played.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Congrats @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper @2mufc0 ! A worthy outcome as it was next to impossible to decide who had the better team here.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Joint winners? What a lame ass ending. This draft would be better off abandoned rather than this ending.

 

[2mufc0]

Congratulations @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper @2mufc0

You’re all winners.

Or losers.

Maybe we’re all winners really.

Congrats @2mufc0 @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper , deserved winners

Congratulations @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper @2mufc0

Wonderful teams and deserved winners

Congrats @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper @2mufc0 ! A worthy outcome as it was next to impossible to decide who had the better team here.

Thanks guys.

 

[Theon]

Joint winners? What a lame ass ending. This draft would be better off abandoned rather than this ending.

Agreed.

Soft as feck this.

 

[Gio]

Joint winners? What a lame ass ending. This draft would be better off abandoned rather than this ending.

Can't imagine Romario and Baggio running around the Rose Bowl jointly holding aloft the World Cup Trophy.

 

[Moby]

Joint winners? What a lame ass ending. This draft would be better off abandoned rather than this ending.

This.

 

[MJJ]

This.

We can be joint winners in round one, combine our teams for qfs.

 

[Moby]

We can be joint winners in round one, combine our teams for qfs.

 

[Ecstatic]

Nice reading!

Amaro is not a household name in drafts but in terms of balance is a great fit for our attack. Also Evra has been suspect defensively against small and skillful wingers who gave him a torrid time (Lennon).

It's because the videos you did post are recent. I was interested in picking him 2 or 3 years ago and only found a single video.

And I was disappointed by what I've watched while the current videos you posted are great.

I have checked again and in fact the very old video I watched when Amaro was 33.

Superb player.

Re Evra, it would always be tough against Best but since he's playing the other side it works in my favour. I also think we tend to under rate our players like Evra and Vidic.

Something also seems off about that CM pairing great on paper but Neeskens peak was as an advanced midfielder and as for Beckenbauer he's the player the team should be built around not shoehorned into a midfield 3. I'm not sure there's even any historical precedence of him playing in a midfield 2? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Then you have Zidane, always had water carriers behind him at his best. Neeskens and Beckenbauer won't be taking the back seat for him. Just seems the opposition has gone down the 'galactico' route with little thought to chemistry.

1) I'd say it's the current players who are 'underrated' by regular followers of these drafts.
2) Germany 66 IIRC but @Šjor Bepo can confirm

The major discussion was about how having Nilton being the sole outlet down the left flank would be an overburden for him. Thats why we got Best in on the left wing, to be that attacking outlet from the left flank and let Nilton handle Garrincha.

But Amancio and Pirri were two players who would have started for any Madrid XI in any era. Amancio was also the best player in the 1964 Euros for Spain.

1) The answer is brilliant The question was "Why didn't you put Best against Evra" Your answer "Because Nilton Santos will handly Garrincga"
2) Any Madrid XI I'm not sure but any Spain X1 yes!

Garrincha and Nilton have a history (of Garrincha humiliating him on a training ground). That's about it.

Nice story

RE: Pele.

this is by his own words and accounts how he used to play at his peak.

of course no one is challenging whether he can play as a false 9 or complete CF, but with Didi here it isn't really the optimal use of him or how he loved to play at his peak.

Powerful pictures.

This is by Ruy Castro, who wrote the Garrincha biography.

"Garrincha arrived in the Botafogo team with the indication of “Mr. Araty” and was soon presented to the team’s trainer, Gentil Cardoso, who put him to train with the main players. Garrincha played well. He returned to Pau Grande as a Botafogo player.

In this passage, Castro (1995) deconstructs the story, constantly recalled by the Brazilian media and in the talks of soccer aficionados, that Garrincha had, in this training, consecutively dribbled Nilton Santos. Castro (1995, p. 58) narrates a balanced fight between both players: “The incredible thing was that it was an equal meeting, considering that, on one hand, there was Nilton Santos, with sixteen games wearing the Brazilian national team jersey; and on the other, an unknown and crooked player, who preferred to play barefooted in his land and only wore soccer boots socially". The author intends to correct distortions and romantic views present in oral memory in favor of presenting the "truth". However, if the confrontation between experience and geniality is a draw, we will have, for the future, with the incorporation
of experience, the triumph of geniality:- therefore, Garrincha is greater."

Garrincha did get the better of Nilton but it wasn't exactly a destruction or anything.

Good post

The team that you have put up seems like team build around Didi, not Pele. Didi in that role clashed with Di Stefano as @GodShaveTheQueen already pointed out. Here Pele seems not the centerpiece of the puzzle but rather Didi is. And not really him that is grabbing the highlight or enjoys most of the ball for your side.

Di Stefano and Pele are 2 different players

Pele was the player out of all the GOAT attackers that could link creative players together, there's no reason why they can't both function together and I disagree with you and GSQ in this respect.

Not his best role but he would work extremely well of cours

Beckenbauer did that in various set ups mate. Never I've seen anyone say something about him or Neeskens failing to shine because they played with great players.

With Didi it's not really the same. He was a dominant playmaker who didn't take crap from anyone - including none other than Don Stefano.

1) Having played against you several times, I'm sure you like to write this kind of comments
2) I'm not sure we know the whole truth and that we can extrapolate from this story

I don’t see how that contradicts how Pele is being used here as a false #9, as he has that freedom to drop deeper and pick the ball up from midfield.

Pele’s point is just that he wasn’t a static number 9 who stood up front, but that he was a complete player who contributed in all phases.

To be honest I think Pele’s role is much more natural than Puskas’s, who was more of a second striker at his best as well - in contrast to Pele I would have some concerns with his mobility and work rate to play a lone striker role. He was not as complete as a player.

I agree

Yeah, I don’t disagree with that much.

My point is I just find it really harsh to say that Pele will stifle Didi based on less than 20 games Didi played in Madrid:

1. In a completely different formation
2. With completely different players (Di Stefano was a legitimate midfielder and far more of a dominant playmaker than Pele was - it’s not a relevant comparison)
3. When Pele has never had that issue before, and in fact is regularly praised for his adaptability and ability to get the best out of his teammates.
4. When Pele isn’t even playing as a #10.

Anyway that’s enough from me on it. Pele looks fantastic to me there, he’s the most complete player in the history of the game and a consummate team player - a false #9 role suits him well and he has a real platform from which to influence the match.

Why makes it simple when you can make it complex ? A better starting point for discussion would be Brazil 58 even if Pele was only 17.

I'll see what I can dig up. But I think the game hinges on more important issues you've brought up Pele conflicting with Didi, but don't you see the overlap between Scirea, Beckenbauer and Zidane? Who's controlling the game and being the main man? Then you have Puskas who's not suited for the lone spearheaded CF role.

The arrow on Scirea is certainly misleading, Scirea is more Sweeper than Libero, he isn't Sammer but rather Koeman

Pele looks perfect to me. Partnered with Garrincha and Didi, they won two World Cups together, while Pele and Garrincha were an unbeaten international partnership over many years. Always loved him as the centrepiece in a front three, I remember when we played against Cal who had him flanked by Messi and Cristiano (IIRC), and just had to hold our hands up and say there was too much sex there to handle.

And you voted against my team comprising Cristiano-Pele-Garrincha strengthened by Platini and my fantastic right-back Camacho

Puskas scored 242 goals in 262 games just in Real in the league and 37 in 41 games in Europe playing for Real Madrid with a dominant #10 in Di Stefano. Puskas really had the qualities to be the complete #9 and is much more a player that should be closed to goal compared to Pele who is really more of a #10.

Di Stefano = false 9 or #10?
Puskas=inside left forward or #9

Naw that was all about personality not roles on the pitch. Even Puskas said he had to adapt at RM. Di stefano was basically just a dick who always had to be the centerpiece.

That is why 2mufc didn't select Di Stefano

Pelé isn't an isolated forward here and I think that he'll benefit from Stoichkov's runs. I don't find it weird that Enigma questions Pelé's role, but I find it weird that he plays Puskás as a pure #9 while doing it.

Typical draft

This is how Real played with Puskas and Di Stefano if someone doubts Puskas in the role of CF:

I also love this website, the opportunity to find 50 pictures to present a team and choose the most suited on to support an argument. I did the same in the past

I disagree mate, but happy to do so. I can definitely see why you think that given his goal record (though Pele’s was just as good, so you’re kinda of criticising your own argument with your Pele comments).

What I’m saying is that based on skill set Puskas is not as suited to a lone striker role as Pele imo, as I don’t think he had the same level of physical attributes which you need in that role. I think Puskas was more reliant on other players making space than Pele was, he’s just not a particularly mobile player whereas Pele will offer much more of a constant threat with his movement and pace.

Puskas typically gets played as a second striker in these things which is the role I think suits him best.

I agree but I still prefer each of them with a closer dedicated partner

For me personally, did both Pele and Garrincha attain peak when playing together or was Garrincha peak during Peles absence?

Good question

I don't think this is true Zico had a decent game imo. It wasn't really admirable either, acting like a thug ripping shirts etc, he wouldn't last 10 minutes under current rules.

Good question: is Gentile overrated?

Wanted to comment on that originally, but forgot. @MJJ's comment especially bugged me — "surely you want best against evra?", like he is some sheep (and I'm not sure if I'd pick Gerets over him in all fairness). Somehow United players in those drafts are either seen as undebatable GOATs or as undeserving frauds who got drafted by mistake, with all their (often uncharacteristic) failures overshadowing whatever good they did during their careers.

Regarding Nilton — it's always going to be a tough task stopping Garrincha, even if you're Maldini. Nilton is arguably the second best choice despite all those training stories — and I like that he finally was moved back to his favourite position.

True. No middle ground

Oh, please do go and watch the highlights. Below is the youtube video.

Your video is embarrassing. To be destroyed is one thing, to be completely destroyed is another one.

That’s it, I don’t know what Gerets did to be rated higher than Evra defensively. His main attributes were his stamina and mentality, he wasn’t a truly elite defender — not all fullbacks are (or even need to be one to be successful). Evra, on the other hand, was an integral part of one of the best defensive set ups of this century, and he wasn’t a gung ho attacking wing back who was a defensive liability, Lennon aside.

People know Evra, not Gerets

You expect Zidane to do the defensive work? You also haven't looked at the other end where it's a similar situation.

I'm not sure to understand your post but Zidane used to defend a lot

This. They're both 9.5s. I'm happy with either as a 9 provided they have the right men around them to make it work. Pele/Garrincha is proven while Stoichkov is the quintessential wing forward who would probably have a higher average position than his CF partner in this system. At the other end, Puskas/Greaves looked like a sound partnership, but kudos to TRV/Enigma for putting Puskas through the middle. My only concern is that Zidane/Puskas axis looks a touch one-paced for me, and even though there is plenty of pace out wide, that makes Nesta and Figueroa's job a tad easier. In comparing the attacks I prefer 2mufc0's both on the cleanness of the system and on the quality of its components.

Yes

I basically just mean he'd be a passenger at this level. Competent at many things but not able to compete against Neeskens and Beckenbauer. That's true of the vast majority of centre mids, not a unique weakness of Seedorf's. The only difference if you can have some worse players that play a more limited, specialised role that might be more of a handful, but I'm not sure that could make any difference. It's just an unbelievably good midfield.

Seedorf was competent defensively but was never someone like Park or Deschamps who could cancel players out with specific instructions. He wasn't a liability but he wasn't a defensive strength. Offensively he was great, but not good enough to trouble those two in any serious way. He wouldn't be redundant but he wouldn't be influential.

I might be overvaluing the midfield but it's the only area on the pitch that I can see a notable difference in quality. He is legitimately not st the same level as the other 5.

It's the role of Voronin to take in charge of Zidane. I don't remember Seedorf at Ajax-Sampdoria-Real Madrid

I do think Don Elias is slightly more likely to stifle that attack than the other two CBs
.

The thing with the midfield for me is something about the Scirea-Beckenbauer together I just don't think reaches the sum of its parts. I'm just not feeling that combo really though I agree Seedorf underwhelms here as well.

Yes

That is because fullbacks generally in drafts get judged almost solely on their defensive ability while going forward they are almost non-factor.

It's because they play against the greatest wingers. A fullback is above all a defender.

BUT you're right, some dynamics are not taken into account by some voters and a brilliant winger has to defend.

Fully agree. I would say there is also a tendency to underrate the more recent full-backs and their critical contribution to the overall flow of the game.

That's why I don't consider a player like Djalma Santos as one of the top 3 greatest right-backs

Full backs are generally always underrated in drafts, especially their defensive responsibility, case in point here as well. It's all about central players. This is mainly the reason they are often picked last..

The most important area in a pitch is the penalty area!

Tough one.

/Thread

 

[harms]

Have you answered every post in the thread?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I got a notification about being quoted, searched a bit, then gave up

 

[Jim Beam]

Have you answered every post in the thread?

 

[MJJ]

Nice reading!



It's because the videos you did post are recent. I was interested in picking him 2 or 3 years ago and only found a single video.

And I was disappointed by what I've watched while the current videos you posted are great.

I have checked again and in fact the very old video I watched when Amaro was 33.

Superb player.



1) I'd say it's the current players who are 'underrated' by regular followers of these drafts.
2) Germany 66 IIRC but @Šjor Bepo can confirm



1) The answer is brilliant The question was "Why didn't you put Best against Evra" Your answer "Because Nilton Santos will handly Garrincga"
2) Any Madrid XI I'm not sure but any Spain X1 yes!



Nice story



Powerful pictures.



Good post



Di Stefano and Pele are 2 different players



Not his best role but he would work extremely well of cours



1) Having played against you several times, I'm sure you like to write this kind of comments
2) I'm not sure we know the whole truth and that we can extrapolate from this story



I agree



Why makes it simple when you can make it complex ? A better starting point for discussion would be Brazil 58 even if Pele was only 17.



The arrow on Scirea is certainly misleading, Scirea is more Sweeper than Libero, he isn't Sammer but rather Koeman



And you voted against my team comprising Cristiano-Pele-Garrincha strengthened by Platini and my fantastic right-back Camacho



Di Stefano = false 9 or #10?
Puskas=inside left forward or #9



That is why 2mufc didn't select Di Stefano



Typical draft



I also love this website, the opportunity to find 50 pictures to present a team and choose the most suited on to support an argument. I did the same in the past



I agree but I still prefer each of them with a closer dedicated partner



Good question



Good question: is Gentile overrated?



True. No middle ground



Your video is embarrassing. To be destroyed is one thing, to be completely destroyed is another one.



People know Evra, not Gerets



I'm not sure to understand your post but Zidane used to defend a lot



Yes



It's the role of Voronin to take in charge of Zidane. I don't remember Seedorf at Ajax-Sampdoria-Real Madrid





Yes



It's because they play against the greatest wingers. A fullback is above all a defender.

BUT you're right, some dynamics are not taken into account by some voters and a brilliant winger has to defend.



That's why I don't consider a player like Djalma Santos as one of the top 3 greatest right-backs



The most important area in a pitch is the penalty area!



/Thread

Let ecstatic vote for the winner!

 

[Ecstatic]

Have you answered every post in the thread?

 

[Ecstatic]

Let ecstatic vote for the winner!

We need a neutral, somebody who has watched live all these players!

 

[Enigma_87]

Wow. Nice work @Ecstatic ! Appreciate the time put in to answer all these.

Who would you have voted for out of interest?

On Puskas and Pele - it wasn't the main selling point of our team but I've always seen Pele more of a midfielder and Puskas more of a striker (complete 9 if you will). Out of the two only Pele you can make a case of being a genuine #10.

 

[2mufc0]

Also @Invictus should get some credit too as he helped out with picks and formation graphics.

 

[Gio]

I got a notification about being quoted, searched a bit, then gave up

Me too.

 

[The Red Viper]

Bit late to this as I've been quite busy off late. But delighted to get my first win in RedCafe football draft, albeit as joint winners.

Ever since Enigma and me teamed up, have been to Semi Finals or Final of almost every draft but never win it. That looked like happening once again and I told Enigma that I guess we will never win ever again.

Congrats @2mufc0 . You had a great team. We contemplated with the idea of picking Pele just to block him because we were worried about that Pele - Garrincha - Didi axis.

 

[The Red Viper]

Congratulations @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper @2mufc0

You’re all winners.

Or losers.

Maybe we’re all winners really.

Congrats @2mufc0 @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper , deserved winners

Congratulations @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper @2mufc0

Wonderful teams and deserved winners

Congrats @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper @2mufc0 ! A worthy outcome as it was next to impossible to decide who had the better team here.

Cheers lads.