Sheep Draft Final: Enigma/TRV vs 2mufc0

Who will win this match based on all the players at their peaks?


  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
4 out of those front 5 played in different zones than Didi's. At least that is what I understand from watching that Madrid play.

The inside forwards would not drop that deep. The wingers would but almost always run outwide even if they collected the ball deep. Di Stefano was the only one who would actually drop too deep. So for me, it was pretty much still a 3 man midfield. The 5 front men influencing the midfield areas is not how their game looked to me.

Yeah, I don’t disagree with that much.

My point is I just find it really harsh to say that Pele will stifle Didi based on less than 20 games Didi played in Madrid:

1. In a completely different formation
2. With completely different players (Di Stefano was a legitimate midfielder and far more of a dominant playmaker than Pele was - it’s not a relevant comparison)
3. When Pele has never had that issue before, and in fact is regularly praised for his adaptability and ability to get the best out of his teammates.
4. When Pele isn’t even playing as a #10.

Anyway that’s enough from me on it. Pele looks fantastic to me there, he’s the most complete player in the history of the game and a consummate team player - a false #9 role suits him well and he has a real platform from which to influence the match.
 
@2mufc0

It would be interesting to see Nilton's domestic record against Garrincha. Probably what my vote hinges on right now. I'll check back tomorrow. Good luck lads.
I'll see what I can dig up. But I think the game hinges on more important issues you've brought up Pele conflicting with Didi, but don't you see the overlap between Scirea, Beckenbauer and Zidane? Who's controlling the game and being the main man? Then you have Puskas who's not suited for the lone spearheaded CF role.
 
Pele looks perfect to me. Partnered with Garrincha and Didi, they won two World Cups together, while Pele and Garrincha were an unbeaten international partnership over many years. Always loved him as the centrepiece in a front three, I remember when we played against Cal who had him flanked by Messi and Cristiano (IIRC), and just had to hold our hands up and say there was too much sex there to handle.
 
I don’t see how that contradicts how Pele is being used here as a false #9, as he has that freedom to drop deeper and pick the ball up from midfield.

Pele’s point is just that he wasn’t a static number 9 who stood up front, but that he was a complete player who contributed in all phases.

To be honest I think Pele’s role is much more natural than Puskas’s, who was more of a second striker at his best as well - in contrast to Pele I would have some concerns with his mobility and work rate to play a lone striker role. He was not as complete as a player.

Re: Pele. He does have the freedom mate, but here he has 3 midfielders behind him. He himself said that he was the third man in attack. It's not really the same if you consider peak Pele. Peak Pele dropped much deeper than just in the hole or where the #10 is. He dropped in his own half and used his strength, skill and pace to glide through players. Here he has Didi, Seedorf and even Voronin in the middle playing as central midfielder occupying a much congested zone.

Puskas scored 242 goals in 262 games just in Real in the league and 37 in 41 games in Europe playing for Real Madrid with a dominant #10 in Di Stefano. Puskas really had the qualities to be the complete #9 and is much more a player that should be closed to goal compared to Pele who is really more of a #10.
 
4 out of those front 5 played in different zones than Didi's. At least that is what I understand from watching that Madrid play.

Naw that was all about personality not roles on the pitch. Even Puskas said he had to adapt at RM. Di stefano was basically just a dick who always had to be the centerpiece.
 
Pelé isn't an isolated forward here and I think that he'll benefit from Stoichkov's runs. I don't find it weird that Enigma questions Pelé's role, but I find it weird that he plays Puskás as a pure #9 while doing it.
 
Going to bed soon, something light hearted to ponder over :devil:

 
Yeah, I don’t disagree with that much.

My point is I just find it really harsh to say that Pele will stifle Didi based on less than 20 games Didi played in Madrid:

1. In a completely different formation
2. With completely different players (Di Stefano was a legitimate midfielder and far more of a dominant playmaker than Pele was - it’s not a relevant comparison)
3. When Pele has never had that issue before, and in fact is regularly praised for his adaptability and ability to get the best out of his teammates.
4. When Pele isn’t even playing as a #10.

Anyway that’s enough from me on it. Pele looks fantastic to me there, he’s the most complete player in the history of the game and a consummate team player - a false #9 role suits him well and he has a real platform from which to influence the match.

Can't have it both ways .He either gets involved enough to be actually counted in the midfield battle (that is where the discussion started when you asked to include Pele in the midfield battle) or he just drops by on occasion in which case it's still a 3 v 3 only.
 
Also this is a final and very few have better credentials than this man in clutch games:

Zinedine Zidane

For a player whose stunning career ended in a shocking act of violence, Zidane was one of the most graceful and poetic players to ever grace a football field. When the ball was at his feet it was almost as if time had momentarily stopped and we were all transfixed by his majesty. The Frenchman is one of the few players to score in two separate World Cup finals, winning the illustrious competition just once in 1998. He was also instrumental in Les Bleus European Championship win two years later and just two years after that scored probably the finest goal in Champions League history. Not bad for a player who is best remembered for a head butt.

A dazzling name. A dazzling player. Zinedine Zidane rolls off the tongue as smoothly as his studs rolled over the ball mid-pirouette time after time to produce that turn christened in his honour.

Everything about Zidane flowed. His elegant style, the multitudinous accolades, the abundant trophies.

Scorer in a World Cup final victory, scorer in a Champions League final victory (and what a goal), Ballon d’Or and World Player of the Year winner.


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On top of the world: Zinedine Zidane (centre), heads his second goal in the 1998 World Cup final


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Greatest hit: Zidane scores the famous volley for Real Madrid in the 2002 Champions League final

There were times when the force of his play and personality alone dragged his club and country from mediocrity to magnificence.

He was called God by Thierry Henry, The Master by Pele, and The King by Michel Platini. You almost get the sense Jesus Christ would be miffed at being left out of comparisons. Mind you, for all his achievements Zidane never played on water.

Zidane always was a man for big moments on big occasions.

He was sent off, after a nudge from officials by the touchline with access to television replays, and France lost the subsequent penalty shootout.

Having pretty much single-handedly got his nation to the final, with goals in the last-16 against Spain and semi-final against Portugal, Zidane, who opened the scoring in the Berlin final with an outrageous Panenka penalty, was pictured walking past the golden trophy, head bowed, on his way to an early bath never to kick a football with meaning again.

A mentor of mine once argued that there are two kinds of people. Those who leave you feeling better after you've been in their company and those who leave you feeling worse. In elite football, the most pertinent distinction is between the players who shrink in the biggest matches and the ones who grow.

After watching Zinedine Zidane in both legs of the Real Madrid-Manchester United Champions League quarter-final it was as if he had been tattooed on one's retinas. It's hard to recall a significant phase of either game in which he failed to play a role.

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It's incredible to think that at Euro 96 some people thought he lacked the stomach for a big occasion. Since then, he has provided the inspiration for France's World Cup (1998) and European Championship (2000) victories and made certain of Real's Champions League win last season with a volley of astonishing prowess.

Zidane is one of the few footballers of the post-Pele generation who can be coupled with the word genius without the language police pounding up the stairs in the dead of night. Johan Cruyff and Diego Maradona are others. It's probably a lot easier to respond to the carpe diem imperative when you open your tool box and see all the necessary equipment. But it still requires character to assert itself in support of natural ability.


"Cometh the Hour" was the great advertising hook that was attached to David Beckham before last summer's World Cup. With his broken metatarsal barely healed and a hamstring strain giving him grief, the England captain was demonstrably unfit to answer that call, though he did manage to cometh with a cathartic, high pressure penalty against Argentina.

He cameth again against Madrid this week when he scored two goals after replacing Juan Sebastian Veron. Wherever he starts next season, the important thing is that Beckham the footballer isn't submerged by Beckham the celebrity.

You can argue all you like about his technical failings: his one-footedness, his lack of natural winger's pace. But nobody has yet dared to assert that he looks for a shadow in which to hide when an opponent turns up the sun. England's World Cup qualifiers at home against Finland and Greece can be cited as prime examples of him dragging a whole team forward by the neck. Beckham will probably never be able to run a game through technical virtuosity alone.

But sometimes in 'ugly' matches force of character can have the same effect. The time to give up on Beckham is if he falls so deeply in love with his image that his testosterone ceases to flow.

However much he grooms himself, he still answers a compulsion to master his opponent - to perform whole-heartedly and to prevail. This week, the pen hovered over a ballot paper from the Football Writers' Association.

It's time for us crows on the wire to nominate our footballer of the year. As the mind lurches this way and that, judgement has one reliable anchor. You can't go far wrong if you stick with the people who maintain or preferably raise their normal standard when the heat is on. The bigger the game, the tighter Zidane's hold on the pattern and rhythm.

Funnily enough, this principle works just as well on Hackney Marshes. The phrase 'big game' is relative. It might be in the Essex Pubs Cup final that one puffing player surpasses himself, wins the game on his own. Sport's highly personal function is to help you find out what you're capable of. And we all know people who took negative self-readings from sport and then turned in on themselves.

Looking inwards at the Premiership, it's safe to bet your house on Alan Shearer and Ruud van Nistelrooy but maybe not, so far, on Thierry Henry, who is sometimes so preoccupied with earning points for artistic merit that he forgets to stick the wretched thing in the net. Sorry. There is no intention here to disparage a genuinely terrific player. But some line has to be drawn between deserving causes. On Wednesday, Zidane burnt that line on the grass with his toes.

Among contemporary giants, Patrick Vieira is another who can piggy-back 10 team-mates through rough waters. Roy Keane used to be able to do it. These days, though, the spirit is more willing than the flesh. Rio Ferdinand is another who's not coping - for entirely separate reasons to Keane.

The beauty of this Premiership title race denouement is that both contenders ought to be capable of winning all their remaining games. So the question becomes: which of them finds the idea of failure most repugnant? Who rises highest on the stick that measures the inner man?

Too romantic, too abstract? Possibly. Maybe luck will have the final call (a deflected shot here, a missed offside there). But this year my pen moved across the Football Writers' ballot paper with unusual conviction. It wrote the name of a big game hunter who responded to United scoring against Real Madrid by seizing the ball and running back to the centre circle, all the while thrusting his fist at the crowd and exhorting them to keep faith. It wrote: Ruud van Nistelrooy.
 
I thought it would be obvious, since all the stories about them are about how Nilton asked his club to sign him.

Yeah, I guess. Probably didn't connect the dots from the stories. Would still have been an interesting metric, if only.
 
This is how Real played with Puskas and Di Stefano if someone doubts Puskas in the role of CF:

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Not much different role than his peak one IMO and he also played with Hidegkuti for Hungary.

I can understand some of the doubts for him stretching the play on the left (although not really what we expected of him on his own), but as a CF is really a moot point from a man that scored 700 goals in as much games for club and country.
 
Puskas scored 242 goals in 262 games just in Real in the league and 37 in 41 games in Europe playing for Real Madrid with a dominant #10 in Di Stefano. Puskas really had the qualities to be the complete #9 and is much more a player that should be closed to goal compared to Pele who is really more of a #10.

I disagree mate, but happy to do so. I can definitely see why you think that given his goal record (though Pele’s was just as good, so you’re kinda of criticising your own argument with your Pele comments).

What I’m saying is that based on skill set Puskas is not as suited to a lone striker role as Pele imo, as I don’t think he had the same level of physical attributes which you need in that role. I think Puskas was more reliant on other players making space than Pele was, he’s just not a particularly mobile player whereas Pele will offer much more of a constant threat with his movement and pace.

Puskas typically gets played as a second striker in these things which is the role I think suits him best.
 
I like both sides and think they will work well in attack. Zero chance that anyone here concedes less than 2 goals:lol: Those setups are super attacking, considering the opposition.

Enigma has no DM and Neeskens has to play a role of an extremely glorified water carrier. Beckenbauer and Zidane will produce the magic together, what does Neeskens even do here except for kicking shins?:D

No DM could work in some matches, but here it is against Pele-Didi partnership in the middle:nervous:

2mufc0 is also very attacking because he has two primarily attacking fullbacks and I don't expect much defensive work from Pele, Stoichkov, Didi, Garrincha...

Seedorf looks out of his depth against those other midfielders on the pitch.

I am very disappointed we didn't get to see the oldschool Brazilian 424 because @2mufc0 has nearly the perfect squad for it. I see why he didn't want to play a 2-men midfield with Didi here, but still would have been great with Sheva as a physical foil for Pele in his best role.
 
I disagree mate, but happy to do so. I can definitely see why you think that given his goal record (though Pele’s was just as good, so you’re kinda of criticising your own argument with your Pele comments).

What I’m saying is that based on skill set Puskas is not as suited to a lone striker role as Pele, as I don’t think he had the same level of physical attributes which you need in that role. I think Puskas was more reliant on other players making space than Pele was, he’s just not a particularly mobile player.
Take a look at the above mate. After Puskas came to Real they played with Canario, Del Sol and Gento - mostly 4 man attacking unit and Di Stefano who was all over the pitch. Here he has Best, Amancio to stretch up the field and none other but Zidane feeding him balls.

Puskas doesn't really need himself to make space for him, that I agree - he has plenty of players playing in natural roles that will provide that space for him.

I've never used Pele as a lone striker and for a reason. Not that he won't do a good job there, but why go against the role he loved himself and how he used to play by his own words?
 
I like both sides and think they will work well in attack. Zero chance that anyone here concedes less than 2 goals:lol: Those setups are super attacking, considering the opposition.

Enigma has no DM and Neeskens has to play a role of an extremely glorified water carrier. Beckenbauer and Zidane will produce the magic together, what does Neeskens even do here except for kicking shins?:D

No DM could work in some matches, but here it is against Pele-Didi partnership in the middle:nervous:

2mufc0 is also very attacking because he has two primarily attacking fullbacks and I don't expect much defensive work from Pele, Stoichkov, Didi, Garrincha...

Seedorf looks out of his depth against those other midfielders on the pitch.

I am very disappointed we didn't get to see the oldschool Brazilian 424 because @2mufc0 has nearly the perfect squad for it. I see why he didn't want to play a 2-men midfield with Didi here, but still would have been great with Sheva as a physical foil for Pele in his best role.

There is also the wings mate. Best and Amancio IMO have definitely the upper hand against the opposition full backs. Also with Garrincha Gerets is receiving zero support. If Voronin goes to cover on consistent basis with Neeskens and Beckenbauer in the middle, well... that's only going one way.

Also you are missing Scirea in the picture. With Scirea, Neeskens and Beckenbauer it's not really a place for a DM. Beckenbauer/Neeskens/ Forster/Scirea is as good spine as it gets - all are fantastic defenders and tactical masters.
 
Naw that was all about personality not roles on the pitch. Even Puskas said he had to adapt at RM. Di stefano was basically just a dick who always had to be the centerpiece.

BTW I think you mentioned yourself Zidane's rating in terms of biggest stage and in finals. I think it's safe to say this is the biggest stage and he was always the one to grab the game when it mattered. :drool:
 
@Indnyc re: Nilton vs Garrincha. That was in training mate without Nilton or any of the seniors even knowing who Garrincha was. A bit like young Ronaldo at Sporting. You can't seriously take that example in a possible matchup here. Many players humiliate each other at training, not really something I'd build a debate on tbh.

It’s exactly what I said in my match as well :)
I don’t think it’s as bad as it is made out to be. I tend to take historical quotes with a pinch of salt

Following the discussions and will vote later
 
It’s exactly what I said in my match as well :)
I don’t think it’s as bad as it is made out to be. I tend to take historical quotes with a pinch of salt

Following the discussions and will vote later
It isn't really historical quotes tbh. People always big up youngsters to build their confidence more than anything. And also the romantic feeling seeing a young player making it through. :)
 
There is also the wings mate. Best and Amancio IMO have definitely the upper hand against the opposition full backs. Also with Garrincha Gerets is receiving zero support. If Voronin goes to cover on consistent basis with Neeskens and Beckenbauer in the middle, well... that's only going one way.

Also you are missing Scirea in the picture. With Scirea, Neeskens and Beckenbauer it's not really a place for a DM. Beckenbauer/Neeskens/ Forster/Scirea is as good spine as it gets - all are fantastic defenders and tactical masters.

I agree that you will score plenty, I didn't expand on it very much because I think it is obvious that Best is gonna roast Gerets, Puskas has an insane amount of service, Beckenbauer will have a big chance to create / score...

You will break through in the middle, on the flanks, everywhere

2mufc0 will break through in the middle, on the flanks, everywhere

You don't want a "ball-playing DM" here to get in the way of Scirea sure, but some water carrier like Deschamps or Makelele could have given the defence more protection with your counter attacking tactics. Generally I have argued before that you don't always need a DM if you have a double pivot with two defensively strong midfielders. It is just that Pele-Didi is playing in exactly that zone here.

You can defend the middle here with your 4 players, but then the flanks are blank. There are just too many threats everywhere with Garrincha and Stoichkov on the flanks.

The same goes for you in attack vs 2mufc0 in defence, he can congest the middle with Nesta, Figueroa, Voronin, Seedorf, but then you are too dangerous from the sides.

This match will produce lots of 1v1 scenes on the wings, lots of opportunities to score and a scoreline which comes straight from the 1954 world cup. I have no idea who will win:lol:
 
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@Don Alfredo I think in those cases it's usually the team that will get upper hand in midfield and control the game. Look no further than Beckenbauer, Neeskens and the man who loved the biggest stage and gave his best at the final step - Zidane(who would also contribute to the midfield battle and is far from passenger) :cool:

Don't think we have any weakness on the pitch. All of our players have genuine claim to be one of the best in their position. Amancio is getting a raw deal, but he was a fantastic winger who scored 1 in 3 for club and country, won the 64 EURO(awarded UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament), 9 La Liga's, 1 EC - scoring in the final and SF against Facchetti's Inter, 2 against Anderlecht and was one of the pivotal figures in that EC win.

On top of that he was regular in Ballon D'or lists and also 3rd in 64.

When you look at Seedorf he really looks out of place in this company in perhaps one of the most pivotal roles. Evra and Gerets aren't really match defensively for our wingers either. Gerets is definitely the better full back, but Garrincha is someone who you don't really put any hope on defending. That's why a tucked in RB like Djalma was perfect for him. Gerets isn't really that type and against Best will be in all sorts of trouble.

or you can go with zee Germans. A final without a single German in the opposition side is a shame 2mufc0 :nono:
 
BTW I think you mentioned yourself Zidane's rating in terms of biggest stage and in finals. I think it's safe to say this is the biggest stage and he was always the one to grab the game when it mattered. :drool:

:lol: fair play to bring that up.

Its definitely a factor for me in balancing the power of the attacks. The proven combo of Pele+Garrincha with Didi added in and a side of Stoichkov is very compelling. But yes with Zidane at his best for me that helps you even out the firepower.

@Don Alfredo I like Neeskens a lot here because I feel he perfectly balances out the Amancio-Gentile flank supporting Amancio in attack and covering for him in the defensive phase. But something about Scirea-Beckenbauer is harder for me to visualize working well
 
or you can go with zee Germans. A final without a single German in the opposition side is a shame 2mufc0 :nono:

This pro-German comment almost made me vote for 2mufc on the spot. That knocked Zidane down to SF level for this one :nono:
 
It's more down to my personal preference than anything mate. Of course said in jest. :)

So my German friend just had a baby. He mumbled something about blah German tracksuit great gift blah. I think his Spanish wife was happy to open the baby's gift and find a Spain shirt fitted for 2 years old so its just going to be waiting 2 years and displayed now ;)
 
So my German friend just had a baby. He mumbled something about blah German tracksuit great gift blah. I think his Spanish wife was happy to open the baby's gift and find a Spain shirt fitted for 2 years old so its just going to be waiting 2 years and displayed now ;)
Interesting couple that. Rarely see combination like that, but can understand going south considering the choice of women there.

This cowardly backing down comment almost made me vote for 2mufc0. That knocked your germans down to frenchmen. :nono:
:lol: touché
 
Interesting couple that. Rarely see combination like that, but can understand going south considering the choice of women there.

:lol: touché

Oh no, this is one of my closest friends. We watch every WC together since 1998 but the German rivalry went up another (friendly) notch in 2014. I should get him a Lothar shirt though as he always gets me Arsenal stuff when he is in London.
 
Oh no, this is one of my closest friends. We watch every WC together since 1998 but the German rivalry went up another (friendly) notch in 2014. I should get him a Lothar shirt though as he always gets me Arsenal stuff when he is in London.
Goes long way then. I'd imagine being the opposite side in 02'.. Hard to believe Germany and Brazil met each other only twice in the entire WC history.
 
@Don Alfredo I like Neeskens a lot here because I feel he perfectly balances out the Amancio-Gentile flank supporting Amancio in attack and covering for him in the defensive phase. But something about Scirea-Beckenbauer is harder for me to visualize working well

Hmm not the biggest fan of Gentile (as RB) myself, but Neeskens supporting that right side sounds good.

@Enigma_87 How about putting Neeskens as RB and Gentile as DM to do the dirty work in midfield? Makes your right side much stronger attacking wise and gives you a dedicated water carrier in midfield:drool:

That‘s what I would have done, but ideas like that make me crash out without warning so what do I know:lol:

@oneniltothearsenal What do you think of Puskas as a CF? I like it here
 
Re: Pele. He does have the freedom mate, but here he has 3 midfielders behind him. He himself said that he was the third man in attack. It's not really the same if you consider peak Pele. Peak Pele dropped much deeper than just in the hole or where the #10 is. He dropped in his own half and used his strength, skill and pace to glide through players. Here he has Didi, Seedorf and even Voronin in the middle playing as central midfielder occupying a much congested zone
Pele yas been played regularly as a CF in a 4-2-3-1 regularly here with a #10 occupying the hold behind him full time and nobody had these reservations. Here with just CMs and no AM he should ideally have more space and imo is in a better fitting position here. I'll buy that more than Puskas in your team tbh.

For me personally, did both Pele and Garrincha attain peak when playing together or was Garrincha peak during Peles absence?
 
Hmm not the biggest fan of Gentile (as RB) myself, but Neeskens supporting that right side sounds good.

@Enigma_87 How about putting Neeskens as RB and Gentile as DM to do the dirty work in midfield? Makes your right side much stronger attacking wise and gives you a dedicated water carrier in midfield:drool:

That‘s what I would have done, but ideas like that make me crash out without warning so what do I know:lol:

@oneniltothearsenal What do you think of Puskas as a CF? I like it here


I think Neeskens at RB will create all sorts of issues mate. And besides, Neeskens could pretty well cover that zone as onenil mentioned. Scirea also will drop in the hole making sure that there aren't many spaces left behind.

Neeskens can still support the attack from that zone and they are all playing natural roles here. Gentile is a tucked in RB who will cover the space when Scirea goes up, it's pretty standard role as well, considering both have done so under zona mista and to a very successful extent.

Pele yas been played regularly as a CF in a 4-2-3-1 regularly here with a #10 occupying the hold behind him full time and nobody had these reservations. Here with just CMs and no AM he should ideally have more space and imo is in a better fitting position here. I'll buy that more than Puskas in your team tbh.

For me personally, did both Pele and Garrincha attain peak when playing together or was Garrincha peak during Peles absence?


I find it surprising how no one really cares how the players themselves described their roles and how they played at their best. Sure they have been fielded in different roles and can play there, but why are we really just disregarding how they actually played at their peak?

Also it's pretty well known that Garrincha hit his best form when Pele was absent in the team. Their peak forms didn't really overlap.

In 1958 he didn't start the first two games due to problems with the coaches due to his free nature. He put his best form when Pele was sidelined and was pretty much done after 65.

After 1962 WC Garrincha played grand total of 13 games for the NT and that was in 65/66 when he was a shadow of the player he was.

In a sense Garrincha elevated his stature when he was given more focal role and without Pele in the team.

They had great results together, but that Brazil team was nothing short of phenomenal at the time and really unbeatable, with some all time GOAT players in every line.
 
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Zidane, Scirea, and Beckenbauer may all operate in similar areas to me. Not sure how well this trio will work together, while I think there isn't any problem with Pele playing as a number 9.
 
with some all time GOAT players in every line
You can even say with some of the greatest GOAT players of all time :p
Tells us how vague this term became if we don't even remember what it means.
 
I don't know how enigma can criticise the work rate of my wingers when his are no better in this respect, same goes with the strange Pele criticism while having Puskas upfront.

Seedorf is absolutely fine here for the job he has, bundles of energy, will put a shift in and link attack with defence. He will sit back and do the graft and let the more talented players do their thing. Don't see how you can call one of the most decorated players of all time out of their depth.
 
Very few could boast of marking Diego Maradona and Zico out of the game like Gentile did. It is impossible not to admire the tenacity and discipline with which he played the game,

I don't think this is true Zico had a decent game imo. It wasn't really admirable either, acting like a thug ripping shirts etc, he wouldn't last 10 minutes under current rules.