Sheep Draft Final: Enigma/TRV vs 2mufc0

Who will win this match based on all the players at their peaks?

  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
Looking into Amancio he looks more like an inside forward than an out and out winger, here is the formation of the 1966 ec final:

300px-Real_Madrid_Partizan_1966-05-11.svg.png


In an already congested central area can see some even more overlaps. Also further issues with Puskas also being a natural inside forward.
 
Tough one. Went for 2mufc0 as his team dynamics look more in tune and in general the team looks more balanced imho.

Not so sold on Neeskens, Beckenbauer duo behind Zidane and Scirea surching forward also leaves some question marks. To cut it short, despite greater individual quality I think 2mufc0 has a bit better team with each player absolutely comfortable in his position. Yes, even Seedorf in this case.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I do have some Arsenal fan bias though I also dislike Cashley so maybe that balances out but I feel Cole was just a level better defensively though Evra was better offensively. Where I personally think Evra is being underestimated here is his passing and cross. If Neeskens scampers off to cover Didi leaving Evra open, Evra can feed Pele and Garrincha with long rangers that could be the difference maker.
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Nah, that's fair and probably the consensus opinion. It just bothers me that Cole seems to be in that exclusive club who appear in all-time drafts no questions asked, whereas Evra is invariably seen as a weakness, when they were so close overall as players. In fairness, Evra's absolute peak as a defender was relatively abbreviated in comparison. Brilliant for about 2-3 seasons after his dodgy settling in period at Utd, then he gradually began showing less urgency or ability to get back into position after his attacking forays.
 
2mufc0 said:
Looking into Amancio he looks more like an inside forward than an out and out winger, here is the formation of the 1966 ec final:

300px-Real_Madrid_Partizan_1966-05-11.svg.png


In an already congested central area can see some even more overlaps. Also further issues with Puskas also being a natural inside forward.
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Amancio was a very versatile player. You would also see him starting games on the left wing as well.

But, he made a name for himself as a RW. Thats where he played when he finished 3rd in Ballon D'or.

As for overlapping with Puskas, I just don't see how. Puskas operates in a completely different zone than Amancio.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I do have some Arsenal fan bias though I also dislike Cashley so maybe that balances out but I feel Cole was just a level better defensively though Evra was better offensively. Where I personally think Evra is being underestimated here is his passing and cross. If Neeskens scampers off to cover Didi leaving Evra open, Evra can feed Pele and Garrincha with long rangers that could be the difference maker.
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Evra had everything apart from crossing(except when he faced Lennon, then he had nothing) as that part of his game was pretty poor terrible compared to other segments.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
The thing with the midfield for me is something about the Scirea-Beckenbauer together I just don't think reaches the sum of its parts. I'm just not feeling that combo really though I agree Seedorf underwhelms here as well.
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Don't you think having someone like Beckenbauer is actually perfect in the sense, you have a player who is comfortable filling that position Scirea marches forward, thereby keeping our shape intact? I mean its not like you have couple of David Luizs out there who would forget about defensive shape and would go out of position constantly.

And even then, I still think the midfield is superior because you have players who can come up with that defense splitting pass or that final ball which would give us that win.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Nah, that's fair and probably the consensus opinion. It just bothers me that Cole seems to be in that exclusive club who appear in all-time drafts no questions asked, whereas Evra is invariably seen as a weakness, when they were so close overall as players. In fairness, Evra's absolute peak as a defender was relatively abbreviated in comparison. Brilliant for about 2-3 seasons after his dodgy settling in period at Utd, then he gradually began showing less urgency or ability to get back into position after his attacking forays.
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That is because fullbacks generally in drafts get judged almost solely on their defensive ability while going forward they are almost non-factor.

A bit ridiculous considering their importance as the football evolved.
 
Jim Beam said:
That is because fullbacks generally in drafts get judged almost solely on their defensive ability while going forward they are almost non-factor.

A bit ridiculous considering their importance as the football evolved.
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It's not completely ridiculous. Drafts are probably the only places where teams face two great wingers from both ends. Something you don't see even in the biggest games of the calendar. Sure you could add their attacking output to the equation, but expecting the likes of Garrincha and Best who required multiple markers in their peak to be still contained is a bit as you say, ridiculous.
 
GodShaveTheQueen said:
It's not completely ridiculous. Drafts are probably the only places where teams face two great wingers from both ends. Something you don't see even in the biggest games of the calendar. Sure you could add their attacking output to the equation, but expecting the likes of Garrincha and Best who required multiple markers in their peak to be still contained is a bit as you say, ridiculous.
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Those wingers still have to go through GOAT defenders with one of fullbacks staying behind making it compact and usually extra midfielder keeping one eye at the back. If they are going forward that is usually because there are some good openings and much more often they will provide a dangerous situation or a cross then making a problem for their defence.

But nope, he has to be stuck 90 minutes with Garrincha and we will judge him only by his defensive qualities. That's not how it works. Especially nowadays, world-class winger or not.
 
Brwned said:
Seedorf was competent defensively but was never someone like Park or Deschamps who could cancel players out with specific instructions. He wasn't a liability but he wasn't a defensive strength. Offensively he was great, but not good enough to trouble those two in any serious way. He wouldn't be redundant but he wouldn't be influential.
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I sometimes miss the unlikely outcomes that happen in reality. Like Seedorf scoring an Atletico-esque screamer to win this game :lol:
 
Jim Beam said:
That is because fullbacks generally in drafts get judged almost solely on their defensive ability while going forward they are almost non-factor.

A bit ridiculous considering their importance as the football evolved.
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Fully agree. I would say there is also a tendency to underrate the more recent full-backs and their critical contribution to the overall flow of the game.
 
Jim Beam said:
Those wingers still have to go through GOAT defenders with one of fullbacks staying behind making it compact and usually extra midfielder keeping one eye at the back. If they are going forward that is usually because there are some good openings and much more often they will provide a dangerous situation or a cross then making a problem for their defence.
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We should probably be seeing tennis scores in that case. More goals than counters per game :)

Jim Beam said:
But nope, he has to be stuck 90 minutes with Garrincha and we will judge him only by his defensive qualities. That's not how it works. Especially nowadays, world-class winger or not.
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree :)
 
harms said:
I sometimes miss the unlikely outcomes that happen in reality. Like Seedorf scoring an Atletico-esque screamer to win this game :lol:
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True! No idea how that could be incorporated into the game but it'd be awesome if someone had a clever idea! At the end of the day most tight games are decided by fortune, and most of these games are so tight
 
Jim Beam said:
That is because fullbacks generally in drafts get judged almost solely on their defensive ability while going forward they are almost non-factor.

A bit ridiculous considering their importance as the football evolved.
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Full backs are generally always underrated in drafts, especially their defensive responsibility, case in point here as well. It's all about central players. This is mainly the reason they are often picked last.

Same with the keeper.

If we weren't trying to highlight this point none of the neutrals would seem to even bat an eyelid there.
 
Jim Beam said:
That is because fullbacks generally in drafts get judged almost solely on their defensive ability while going forward they are almost non-factor.

A bit ridiculous considering their importance as the football evolved.
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Disagree totally. Even in last match I recall discussions on Bergomi-Kalle flank and importance of having a more attacking fullback there. When facing a more superior wingers the ability of any fullback to provide consistent width without leaving gaps behind should rightly be questioned.

In this match all 4 wingers are better than the fullbacks they are facing and will rightly have their moments.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Disagree totally. Even in last match I recall discussions on Bergomi-Kalle flank and importance of having a more attacking fullback there. When facing a more superior wingers the ability of any fullback to provide consistent width without leaving gaps behind should rightly be questioned.

In this match all 4 wingers are better than the fullbacks they are facing and will rightly have their moments.
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Surely ours are better suited to the task and better individual players no?
 
Just saw the score:o

My god am I glad that I didn't vote:lol:

Is it penalties now or what?
 
2mufc0 said:
Same to you and TRV.

Pens would be a shit way to decide a game, but what can we do.
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Agreed! Think there were three more votes or something we tried before, but was a while back...

Ok, either way tbh or whatever the draftmasters decide.
 
Going the Three Lions way I see, with all these penalty shoot-outs.

Second time we are having a penalty shootout this tournament after the match vs EAP.

Just need to ensure Pat has caffeine nearby him this time. :lol:
 
2mufc0 said:
Same to you and TRV.

Pens would be a shit way to decide a game, but what can we do.
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If it makes you feel better, if I had voted it would have been down to a coin flip as I couldn't make up my mind
 
The Red Viper said:
Going the Three Lions way I see, with all these penalty shoot-outs.

Second time we are having a penalty shootout this tournament after the match vs EAP.

Just need to ensure Pat has caffeine nearby him this time. :lol:
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I think @Pat_Mustard needs Scotch more than caffeine
 
Why not just do a joint winners? Both teams will be happy, and many won't really mind/give a shit. It's not like there's an actual trophy here.
 
Jim Beam said:
That is because fullbacks generally in drafts get judged almost solely on their defensive ability while going forward they are almost non-factor.

A bit ridiculous considering their importance as the football evolved.
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Gio said:
Fully agree. I would say there is also a tendency to underrate the more recent full-backs and their critical contribution to the overall flow of the game.
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Aye, there's a tendency to take the well-rounded skill set and increased pitch coverage of modern FBs for granted, and just to focus on their relative weaknesses. It's a difficult balance to strike when assessing these matches in fairness, and at least we seem to be reaching a more realistic consensus about the attacking output of some of the older big name full-backs.
 
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