Serie A 90's draft

crappycraperson said:
I personally don't care, since it was clear from the start that players like Seedrof, Brehme will be picked and bar few most would consider them as normal versions, but it was just too tempting to ignore in this particular instance.
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Please keep Seedorf out of it :rolleyes:
The problem with Seedorf isn't his peak, it's longevity (or the lack of it), he was sublime, even though not quite on his AC Milan level (not really surprising considering the fact that he was a key part in 2 different CL winning teams already).

I'm going to get murdered for that comparison, but peak-wise it's the same situation as with Nesta or Cannavaro, for example — both are already amazing, possibly world-class defenders, even though both will peak in the 00's. Nesta and Cannavaro are much better picks if we're talking about the spirit of the draft, of course, as they've spent all their careers in Serie A and not in Netherlands/Spain like the 90's Seedorf.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Cannavaro made more appearances in the eligible seasons than Nesta and Seedorf combined, so you can both feck off.
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If only trophies were given out for appearances.....;) but yeah welcome to the discussions....


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Seedorf is just not comparable to players who had better peak before or after, that guy barely made the cut. Imagine judging him on such a small sample size. By this logic Kevin Phillips is as good as Alan Shearer.
 
Moby said:
Seedorf is just not comparable to players who had better peak before or after, that guy barely made the cut. Imagine judging him on such a small sample size. By this logic Kevin Phillips is as good as Alan Shearer.
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What is the point of the cut if the guys who made it are still questioned?
Hopefully you'll be consistent with your opinions with Stankovic later.
 
harms said:
As I expected, missed my point entirely :(
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You can keep diverting his assessment to 'oh look other players peaked in a different era' when that isn't even the criticism. He fails at the very instant you look at the volume of his work in the 90s. It's the same argument used against players like Blanc etc. If another player has a larger sample size with that level of performances sustained he would obviously rated higher, and most players left in the draft right now would boast of that. You've had to resort to his CL wins outside Italy and what not.

It's a pure scan vote winning ploy, nothing more.
 
harms said:
What is the point of the cut if the guys who made it are still questioned?
Hopefully you'll be consistent with your opinions with Stankovic later.
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Funnily I had both Stankovic and Seedorf in this exact same draft when it happened last time. I know what I was doing, so are you.
 
harms said:
What is the point of the cut if the guys who made it are still questioned?
Hopefully you'll be consistent with your opinions with Stankovic later.
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So if we have the same criteria in the PL draft you would then compare Kevin Phillips to Alan Shearer coz both made the cut.
 
Moby said:
You can keep diverting his assessment to 'oh look other players peaked in a different era' when that isn't even the criticism. He fails at the very instant you look at the volume of his work in the 90s. It's the same argument used against players like Blanc etc. If another player has a larger sample size with that level of performances sustained he would obviously rated higher, and most players left in the draft right now would boast of that. You've had to resort to his CL wins outside Italy and what not.

It's a pure scan vote winning ploy, nothing more.
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Moby said:
Funnily I had both Stankovic and Seedorf in this exact same draft when it happened last time. I know what I was doing, so are you.
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If you wish to believe it. It isn't, he played 59 eligible games, was great at Sampdoria and led Inter to the Coppa final, including awesome performances against AC Milan (scored a winner in the first leg and provided an assist for the Baggio's equalizer in the second), scored in the first leg of the final, proved yet again (after winning against them in a non-eligible CL final) that he is good enough to face the best midfielders in the league like Davids and Conte...
 
Moby said:
So if we have the same criteria in the PL draft you would then compare Kevin Phillips to Alan Shearer coz both made the cut.
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He was amazing that one season. Is he better than Shearer? No. Is he a good option in the PL draft? Yes.
I'm not saying that Seedorf is as good as Matthäus/Rijkaard/Davids in this draft, he isn't. But the underrating of him from the few managers, you included, is a bit ridiculous.
 
Don't have a problem with these discussions guys, but can we save them for the match threads? Or we will end up having nothing to talk about in them.
 
harms said:
He was amazing that one season. Is he better than Shearer? No. Is he a good option in the PL draft? Yes.
I'm not saying that Seedorf is as good as Matthäus/Rijkaard/Davids in this draft, he isn't. But the underrating of him from the few managers, you included, is a bit ridiculous.
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No one is saying he's a sheep but the way you've gone on with his few performances like you did in your match thread is obviously flawed. There's a decent list of midfielders who boast of better credentials than him as per the theme of the draft.

Anyway, match thread is a better time to consider these things.
 
It's just the classic debate between longevity and peak. Where peak length isn't defined, we are always going to disagree over how long it should be based on however our long the peak is of our own best players. We've had 16 agendas there all rubbing up against each other. All you can ask is that people are consistent.

Tuppet said:
Match time arguments aside, I saw few games from Inter 90/91 season and even 91/92 season during the draft and Brehme was absolutely sublime. He is in my mind quite clearly the best attacking left back and overall second best left back in the draft if you don't count longevity. I should have been better at arguing this in my match but most of the vote turnaround happened when I was sleeping and getting ready for work. There are plenty of players selected farther from their peaks then Brehme who had just won Serie A player of the year a season ago, how far he possibly could have been from his peak.
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Would agreed with this. I'm not changing my view on Brehme, that he came into this draft at an almost GOAT level - his player of the year award in 1989 which, last time I checked, was the only player of the year award by any full-back in a major league in the last 30 years. Or if you look at his Italia '90 performances a month before for example, all pretty sensational. But after a strong 1990/91, he didn't maintain that level through to 1992. It's the same for a lot of that Inter team who misfired under the new manager in 1991/92. Doesn't mean he can't feature in the squad or that I should be morally shamed into choosing Serie A's Djimi Traore equivalent in his place.

The beauty of this draft is that it was tremendously difficult to sustain a high level in such a dogged and competitive league. So what we have are a lot of great players who either alternated great seasons with decent ones where they might 'only' win a match once every month or two, or burned brightly for a season or two then either fecked off / got old /weren't old enough. and it should always be the case that someone who was world class for half a decade or longer should trump a world-class one-season player - it just gets murkier when you're comparing that world-class player over a shorter period with a solid 7 or even 8 out of 10 campaigner over most of the decade.
 
harms said:
As I expected, missed my point entirely :(
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I understood your point but I think you're over-egging it. I'd typed out a longer response but it came off as too harsh on Seedorf so I'll refrain from posting, not least because I have no problem with the Seedorf pick and rated his Sampdoria form quite highly.
 
Gio said:
it just gets murkier when you're comparing that world-class player over a shorter period with a solid 7 or even 8 out of 10 campaigner over most of the decade.
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Does it? A solid 7 or 8 out of 10 over most of the decade would be a football demigod. In fact, the best average ratings are mid-6s :lol:
 
antohan said:
Does it? A solid 7 or 8 out of 10 over most of the decade would be a football demigod. In fact, the best average ratings are mid-6s :lol:
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Yeah I don't really get the range these papers use, it's so narrow. More of a Shoot Magazine / Championship Manager man in that regard, where 8s and 9s are possible and 10 is phenomenal.
 
Gio said:
Yeah I don't really get the range these papers use, it's so narrow. More of a Shoot Magazine / Championship Manager man in that regard, where 8s and 9s are possible and 10 is phenomenal.
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I'd take the solid 7 or 8 over several seasons over the occasional 10 one season wonder. That's why I wasn't too fussed about Alemão being overlooked (undeserved as it was) but not happy at all at how Crippa was completely overlooked while Edgar banged on about Stankovic, Ambrosini and Evani (playing CM, like his LBs play CB). I just put it down to most not really watching Serie A actively but rather reconstructing the past through stats, PES profiles and exposure to big games only.

It's obviously very different. As an example, a player like Michael Carrick doesn't have many goals, you can't hold him responsible for clean sheets ahead of a Rio or Vidic... I suppose in 20 years time people could find some nice clips to portray him... but none of that can substitute realising how much of a difference he made to the team through years of watching him every week and noticing not only what he did, but what the team missed when he wasn't around. Even non-United fans who only saw us occasionally have a hard time grasping that.

Those are the players getting a crap deal here and precisely the ones that shouldn't have. That's why as far as I'm concerned, the deeper we go in this the more the presence of such players will prove my tie-breakers when in doubt, not the shiny toy.
 
antohan said:
I'd take the solid 7 or 8 over several seasons over the occasional 10 one season wonder. That's why I wasn't too fussed about Alemão being overlooked (undeserved as it was) but not happy at all at how Crippa was completely overlooked while Edgar banged on about Stankovic, Ambrosini and Evani (playing CM, like his LBs play CB). I just put it down to most not really watching Serie A actively but rather reconstructing the past through stats, PES profiles and exposure to big games only.

It's obviously very different. As an example, a player like Michael Carrick doesn't have many goals, you can't hold him responsible for clean sheets ahead of a Rio or Vidic... I suppose in 20 years time people could find some nice clips to portray him... but none of that can substitute realising how much of a difference he made to the team through years of watching him every week and noticing not only what he did, but what the team missed when he wasn't around. Even non-United fans who only saw us occasionally have a hard time grasping that.

Those are the players getting a crap deal here and precisely the ones that shouldn't have. That's why as far as I'm concerned, the deeper we go in this the more the presence of such players will prove my tie-breakers when in doubt, not the shiny toy.
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Expecting big ups for Almeyda then. Especially next to his partner in crime. :drool:
 
antohan said:
Evani (playing CM, like his LBs play CB)
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He was a left sided CM. Stylistically similar to Edgar Davids I suppose even if not as good as player. Started his career as a fullback and then developed into an all round midfielder. He played LM in 1990 European Cup, played CM in 1989 European Super Cup. He even subbed Fuser on Right Wing in another Supercup finals. Quite a versatile utility midfielder comfortable and having the workrate to play across the line preferrable on the left side.

He had a limited role in my team, which utilizes his workrate and ball carrying ability. Not exactly a match winner, but still an active part of support team. Suits his profile to a T.

antohan said:
I just put it down to most not really watching Serie A actively
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Seriously? Maybe some other posters are not as old as you and so have to depend on youtube and stats and articles to go by. Watching Serie A actively in 90s won't really apply to half the draft playing community, it's ridiculous to have that as a expectation!
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
He was a left sided CM. Stylistically similar to Edgar Davids I suppose even if not as good as player. Started his career as a fullback and then developed into an all round midfielder. He played LM in 1990 European Cup, played CM in 1989 European Super Cup. He even subbed Fuser on Right Wing in another Supercup finals. Quite a versatile utility midfielder comfortable and having the workrate to play across the line preferrable on the left side.

He had a limited role in my team, which utilizes his workrate and ball carrying ability. Not exactly a match winner, but still an active part of support team. Suits his profile to a T.
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He was versatile indeed, a great squad player who could be stuck anywhere and expected to do his job. That's why I didn't want to target him unduly despite him very clearly being more a left midfielder than a central midfielder that could live with Alemão. His instruction to work the flank were correct as well. Actually, he was probably your best midfielder in an underwhelming cobbled up midfield.

Seriously? Maybe some other posters are not as old as you and so have to depend on youtube and stats and articles to go by. Watching Serie A actively in 90s won't really apply to half the draft playing community, it's ridiculous to have that as a expectation!
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I know I can't expect that, obviously. What I did expect was people being a bit more willing to contemplate and interested in finding more about these players they clearly know very little about. But no, with a few notable exceptions, it has all been largely drooling over the same old big names, largely based on WC/CL/non-90s and/or non-Serie A form. You expect that to be the case in a final, by then teams have a bunch of usual suspects, but first rounds usually get a lot more love for the odd chap you've never heard of. What is the point otherwise?
 
Enigma_87 said:
ditto. First name on the list for me as well.
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Naw. Without a defined judging criteriaa at the outset (like "one tournament peak" for the NT), Roberto Baggio is the first name on the list, no question.
When you think 1990s Serie A Roberto Baggio is who you think first. Ronaldo's legend is a big part of Brazil 98 and 2002 - not relevant here, whereas Baggio legend is almost entirely 90s Serie A. When you say Fenomeno I don't think "90s Serie A" I think Brazil 98 and 2002.
 
@oneniltothearsenal sorry for not getting back to yet regarding a day to play been pretty busy, will get back to you once Invictus confirms he's free.
 
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