Serie A 90's draft

Moby said:
@antohan still no love for your Bennarivo. :lol:

A better choice than Brehme for sure, as far as the draft theme is concerned.
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Shocking. 2nd best leftback in the draft my arse.

Peak 90s Serie A Benarrivo is 2nd or 3rd at a push on either flank, with the bonus you can choose which flank to improve and then pick up either Zanetti or Maldini later.

The only downside is voters are ignorant morons, but who cares?
 
antohan said:
Shocking. 2nd best leftback in the draft my arse.

Peak 90s Serie A Benarrivo is 2nd or 3rd at a push on either flank, with the bonus you can choose which flank to improve and then pick up either Zanetti or Maldini later.

The only downside is voters are ignorant morons, but who cares?
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Fwiw, he was to be my 3rd pick. I was wavering a lot between him and Tassotti, but had to pick Tassotti for the Milan/Donadoni/MvB link. Had you not picked him, I'd have taken him instead of Pessotto.

I thought @harms would pick him as upgrade on Carboni.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Fwiw, he was to be my 3rd pick. I was wavering a lot between him and Tassotti, but had to pick Tassotti for the Milan/Donadoni/MvB link. Had you not picked him, I'd have taken him instead of Pessotto.

I thought @harms would pick him as upgrade on Carboni.
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And played him at CB? :lol:

Those were really random picks, really odd. I can see the logic in Tassotti, but pretty sure you massively jumped the gun there.
 
Moby said:
@antohan still no love for your Bennarivo. :lol:

A better choice than Brehme for sure, as far as the draft theme is concerned.
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Don't rate Benarrivo any higher than De Agostini to be honest. Probably reflected by their international status: Benarrivo managed 23 caps for Italy despite being able on both flanks, while De Agostini got 36 competing with Cabrini and Maldini.
 
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Gio said:
Don't rate Benarrivo any higher than De Agostini to be honest. Pro Benarrivo managed 23 caps for Italy while Agostini got 36 competing with Cabrini and Maldini.
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90s Serie A vs. cap counting

Most of these fullbacks are being tasked with bossing their flank. Benarrivo did exactly that. It was insane how he could be everywhere all game long.
 
antohan said:
And played him at CB? :lol:

Those were really random picks, really odd. I can see the logic in Tassotti, but pretty sure you massively jumped the gun there.
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I was debating between a back 3 and back 4 all through the draft and the dilema showed in the team :lol:

Maybe jumped the gun, Tassotti/Donadoni/MvB dynamic worked very well in R1 and was crucial in my win ;)
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I was debating between a back 3 and back 4 all through the draft and the dilema showed in the team :lol:

Maybe jumped the gun, Tassotti/Donadoni/MvB dynamic worked very well in R1 and was crucial in my win ;)
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Sure did, but largely due to the other two and nobody had much of an incentive to pick him in R3-4. It's a long 30-pick wait but you probably missed on some tasty options unnecessarily.
 
antohan said:
Sure did, but largely due to the other two and nobody had much of an incentive to pick him in R3-4. It's a long 30-pick wait but you probably missed on some tasty options unnecessarily.
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Debatable. There was a run on defenders then, Zanetti, Benarrivo, Cafu, Montero gone plus a slew of CBs too and I wanted to fix that flank. Excepting Cafu and Zanetti, he's probably the 3rd best RB in this draft.

But then fullbacks are not really as important in this theme as most teams have gone for a central attack.
 
Gio said:
Don't rate Benarrivo any higher than De Agostini to be honest. Probably reflected by their international status: Benarrivo managed 23 caps for Italy despite being able on both flanks, while De Agostini got 36 competing with Cabrini and Maldini.
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In fairness Benarrivo actually started more matches for Italy than De Agostini (19 vs 16), with De Agostini racking up a majority of his appearances from the bench. De Agostini was just as versatile as well, often coming on as a midfielder, and as Maldini was generally playing as well they weren't really in direct competition for a place.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
In fairness Benarrivo actually started more matches for Italy than De Agostini (19 vs 16), with De Agostini racking up a majority of his appearances from the bench. De Agostini was just as versatile as well, often coming on as a midfielder, and as Maldini was generally playing as well they weren't really in direct competition for a place.
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Indeed. In my own left back list, I’d placed them all - Candela, De Agostini, Branco, Benarrivo (might have missed one or two out) in the same bracket. All final ready but broadly in a distinct tier, particularly relative to Maldini.
 
Gio said:
Indeed. In my own left back list, I’d placed them all - Candela, De Agostini, Branco, Benarrivo (might have missed one or two out) in the same bracket. All final ready but broadly in a distinct tier, particularly relative to Maldini.
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By the way, how do you rate Carboni in that company out of interest? I always had him in my mind as a back up choice in other drafts, and thought that it would be a great draft for him to shine in, but I'm not sure about the reception he's getting so far
 
harms said:
By the way, how do you rate Carboni in that company out of interest? I always had him in my mind as a back up choice in other drafts, and thought that it would be a great draft for him to shine in, but I'm not sure about the reception he's getting so far
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IMO not enough output in the attacking third, which is essential in narrow formations and without a winger in front of him.

Very solid defensively but I’d rather have the Valencia version.

Still quality option and was on our shortlist if we couldn’t land our top targets.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Debatable. There was a run on defenders then, Zanetti, Benarrivo, Cafu, Montero gone plus a slew of CBs too and I wanted to fix that flank. Excepting Cafu and Zanetti, he's probably the 3rd best RB in this draft.

But then fullbacks are not really as important in this theme as most teams have gone for a central attack.
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And that's why Benarrivo is right up there and Tassotti isn't even close to being the 3rd best RB.
 
antohan said:
And that's why Benarrivo is right up there and Tassotti isn't even close to being the 3rd best RB.
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You need to rate depending on context of the teams.

For my team (since I have Donadoni) the only 'upgrades' I'd consider are Zanetti and Cafu. Benarrivo is not good enough to break the proven Milan link. He's the 3rd best RB I could want.

For other teams, who may lack width and/or play a back 3 with wingbacks, Benarrivo is a no brainer given his flexibility on both flanks and attacking input.
 
harms said:
By the way, how do you rate Carboni in that company out of interest? I always had him in my mind as a back up choice in other drafts, and thought that it would be a great draft for him to shine in, but I'm not sure about the reception he's getting so far
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As good a leftback as Tassotti. Would be fine in a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 but can't see him in that LM/LWB role.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
You need to rate depending on context of the teams.

For my team (since I have Donadoni) the only 'upgrades' I'd consider are Zanetti and Cafu. Benarrivo is not good enough to break the proven Milan link. He's the 3rd best RB I could want.

For other teams, who may lack width and/or play a back 3 with wingbacks, Benarrivo is a no brainer given his flexibility on both flanks and attacking input.
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That was my point, you were the only one who had clear upside in getting Tassotti. May have been at risk from someone wanting him in a back three with wingbacks (just out of desperation for a reputable name) but nobody was going to prioritise him as a fullback when you could easily get an adequate defensive RB in R10+
 
harms said:
By the way, how do you rate Carboni in that company out of interest? I always had him in my mind as a back up choice in other drafts, and thought that it would be a great draft for him to shine in, but I'm not sure about the reception he's getting so far
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Yeah, agree with @Enigma_87 on this. Excellent defender, saw him more at Valencia to be honest where he was really solid, but perhaps not tailored to full flank domination compared to a few others from this era (who were maybe not as defensively astute, but had a more expansive game). For what it's worth, here's the top end of my list of LBs where Carboni was firmly ensconced in that second group:

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But that's just my take and I'm sure players could be shifted around.
 
crappycraperson said:
Haha suddenly he is the second best left back in pool when you were running him down in your draft game.
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Meh I'll let Gio respond properly it he wants, but from my perspective I stand by everything I said in that draft game. It's clearly not a peak Brehme which is what was said in the match.

As I mentioned in the thread it also wasn't a peak Gullit. And it's also not a sustained peak Matthaus (who shared the same poor 91/92 club season as Brehme), or Van Basten or Rijkaard. The list is pretty wide and I would have brought up the same argument around peak performance for any of those players if I thought it was influencing votes.

It doesn't make any of them bad players though and I'd still snap you're hand off for Gullit or Van Basten. And Matthaus is still the best midfielder in the draft (along with maybe Davids) despite not being quite at his peak.

It's was factually correct to say that Brehme isn't at his best and he therefore shouldn't be rated as if he was by the voters. It doesn't make him a bad player though. Fact is we needed width and were a bit stuck for options given all the right backs were taken. Brehme is probably the best width provider/attacking left back in the draft and it didn't make sense not to take him just because it wasn't the peak 88-90 version (which is a genuine GOAT candidate in an all-time context, let alone 90s Serie A).
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Wut? Why is he being mentioned in this company?

91-92 Golden Boot winner. Scored most number of goals in Serie A (25) than any season before or after in this league. Balon d'Or top it up.
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What the Dutch trio have going for them is they were phased out. Rijkaard probably played the most and still had the quality in him for that great CL-winning season with Ajax. Gullit probably suffers the most in an 80s vs 90s Milan comparison, but had a tremendous season for Sampdoria (so much so Milan wanted him back). Marco was waited on for half a decade, even if he only really had that one absolutely barnstorming season (and at no point did I dare question his credentials in our game).

The German trio didn't get phased out, they were kicked out. All in one go. It took almost a decade to see anything like it happening again with the Dutch clique driving the Spaniards up the wall at Barca.
 
Theon said:
And Matthaus is still the best midfielder in the draft (along with maybe Davids) despite not being quite at his peak.
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It still irks me a bit reading through Matthaus level in the early 90's and especially in that 90/91 season as him not being on the top of his game, which IMO is far from what in reality was.

Whilst he was excellent in 89/90 and instrumental for Inter's title win, his true sustained peak came exactly after the turn of the decade. The 90WC, then the 90/91 season where he topped whatever club level he was at ever before or ever since. He was a driving force and by far the best Inter player in probably 90% of the games played both in Serie A and during the UEFA cup run the same year. He won the FIFA Player of the year award in 91 for his feats at club level and not due to the WC win but to his exploits during that season.

In other words if we are to speak about his physical peak and ability wise is it really in 89 or 90 and 91? It's of course debatable, and you can perhaps about the number of games played - 2 seasons, although those numbers are pretty much close to whatever other numbers many players picked in 3 seasons or even more due to injuries during the time span, but ability wise I'm really surprised to be questioned during that particular time frame.

If you compare him with Brehme - both of him departed the year later, Brehme's career was pretty much done after that, Matthaus on the other hand, amassed something like what? 50 caps for Germany and retired with 4 more BL titles(3 in the 80's), 2 DBF Pokals, another UEFA cup title and so on.

So whilst I can see the point in the spirit of the draft and playing more games in that time span, when it comes to ability and during that time span, it's really safe to say that Matthaus was exactly at the heights of his powers and individually looking at him, no club performance beats that 90/91 season where he missed only 3 games, not even close..
 
antohan said:
What the Dutch trio have going for them is they were phased out. Rijkaard probably played the most and still had the quality in him for that great CL-winning season with Ajax. Gullit probably suffers the most in an 80s vs 90s Milan comparison, but had a tremendous season for Sampdoria (so much so Milan wanted him back). Marco was waited on for half a decade, even if he only really had that one absolutely barnstorming season (and at no point did I dare question his credentials in our game).

The German trio didn't get phased out, they were kicked out. All in one go. It took almost a decade to see anything like it happening again with the Dutch clique driving the Spaniards up the wall at Barca.
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He was Golden Boot winner in 1989-90 too. It was only 1990-91 where he suffered a dip in form. 1991-92 was spectacular and 1992-93 continued to be great till he got injured. 13 goals in 15 games in the league, 20 goals in 22 games overall it was top form. Milan went 58 games unbeaten in this run. Injury at his peak was unfortunate.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
He was Golden Boot winner in 1989-90 too. It was only 1990-91 where he suffered a dip in form. 1991-92 was spectacular and 1992-93 continued to be great till he got injured. 13 goals in 15 games in the league, 20 goals in 22 games overall it was top form. Milan went 58 games unbeaten in this run. Injury at his peak was unfortunate.
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As I said, it was a fantastic run he had there and that's why I didn't even hint at bringing up any peak/longevity discussion. It was the rest of your team that was a complete mess, quite clearly. If people can't see that then hats off and well done but the last thing I was going to do was make some fecked up argument about a player I looked out for every week and never disappointed.
 
Moby said:
He could play both sides.
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Well, I'm buggered if I remember him playing on the left so can hardly rate him in that bizarre tier where tiers 2 to 4 -or 5- of both defensive and attacking fullbacks are all wrapped into one.
 
antohan said:
Well, I'm buggered if I remember him playing on the left so can hardly rate him in that bizarre tier where tiers 2 to 4 -or 5- of both defensive and attacking fullbacks are all wrapped into one.
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Yeah very much his secondary position.

Think he got quite overlooked in this draft, an absolute force of nature at his prime and defensively you cannot get much better than that, would rate him ahead of Bennarivo defensively and not much in it overall. He was a crucial part of that unbelievable pain in the arse Juve team that probably ranks around the top in terms of teams with insane work rate and running all over the pitch.
 
Moby said:
Yeah very much his secondary position.

Think he got quite overlooked in this draft, an absolute force of nature at his prime and defensively you cannot get much better than that, would rate him ahead of Bennarivo defensively and not much in it overall. He was a crucial part of that unbelievable pain in the arse Juve team that probably ranks around the top in terms of teams with insane work rate and running all over the pitch.
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I love Di Livio, cracking player. Different to Benarrivo though, you wouldn't really want him as a RB in a flat four, for starters. I know where you are coming from, but that's really down to a style difference IMO. Di Livio was a pesky son of a gun, he would be all over you, while Benarrivo's defensive game revolved more around reading situations, anticipation and positioning, all aided by a fantastic engine and not the glacial movement of those who usually exhibit those traits.

That's what made him bonkers to watch, he would be intercepting a pass in his final third, passing to another teammate and a couple of passes later you see him scampering down their final third running onto a pass and utterly free. Cross, some shit happens and then you see the ball getting twatted up the field... and Benarrivo is there in his own half intercepting it. It was bizarre, most of the time you just thought "You have no right being there!!!!!". Must have been incredibly annoying to play against, but in a very different way.
 
Moby said:
Still can't believe you picked him ahead of Ronaldo.
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Such a shame they were both crocks. Their peaks are probably about level to be fair to Edgar (different styles, mind).

The heartbreaking thing with Ronaldo is that with Marco we are pretty positive we did see his peak, just didn't get to see more of it, while with Ronaldo you get that feeling that he still had another gear. Well, another gear probably isn't possible, but further room to become an even better, more accomplished and consistently devastating player. He wasn't even 25 and it had all gone tits up FFS :(
 
Theon said:
Meh I'll let Gio respond properly it he wants, but from my perspective I stand by everything I said in that draft game. It's clearly not a peak Brehme which is what was said in the match.

As I mentioned in the thread it also wasn't a peak Gullit. And it's also not a sustained peak Matthaus (who shared the same poor 91/92 club season as Brehme), or Van Basten or Rijkaard. The list is pretty wide and I would have brought up the same argument around peak performance for any of those players if I thought it was influencing votes.

It doesn't make any of them bad players though and I'd still snap you're hand off for Gullit or Van Basten. And Matthaus is still the best midfielder in the draft (along with maybe Davids) despite not being quite at his peak.

It's was factually correct to say that Brehme isn't at his best and he therefore shouldn't be rated as if he was by the voters. It doesn't make him a bad player though. Fact is we needed width and were a bit stuck for options given all the right backs were taken. Brehme is probably the best width provider/attacking left back in the draft and it didn't make sense not to take him just because it wasn't the peak 88-90 version (which is a genuine GOAT candidate in an all-time context, let alone 90s Serie A).
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Look, I voted for you guys in your match up and it was at least partly driven by the arguments around Tuppet's players not being their peak self. Now to turn around and pick Brehme, one of the players that was highlighted in those arguments, is ridiculous regardless of any mental gymnastics one may come up with. Brehme is a pick geared solely towards scan voters, those that you also also ran down in those arguments. I personally don't care, since it was clear from the start that players like Seedrof, Brehme will be picked and bar few most would consider them as normal versions, but it was just too tempting to ignore in this particular instance.
 
Match time arguments aside, I saw few games from Inter 90/91 season and even 91/92 season during the draft and Brehme was absolutely sublime. He is in my mind quite clearly the best attacking left back and overall second best left back in the draft if you don't count longevity. I should have been better at arguing this in my match but most of the vote turnaround happened when I was sleeping and getting ready for work. There are plenty of players selected farther from their peaks then Brehme who had just won Serie A player of the year a season ago, how far he possibly could have been from his peak.
 
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