We are in dire need of a quality, natural in the hole player. We'd infact be wise to target a Fred and a player like SMS..
Sergej Milinkovic Savic
- Thread starter R'hllor
- Start date
Agree to an extent.
Found these two stats from Caley interesting;
https://mobile.twitter.com/MC_of_A/status/999298519793127424
https://mobile.twitter.com/MC_of_A/status/999301625360670720/photo/1
That's Pogba at his best.
I disagree. I think thats what Mourinho wants him to be when he plays him in a 2 next to Matic. But he struggles in that role. Its hard to pin point what Pogba is as a player because he doesn't create enough or occupy the "hole" enough to be an AM nor does he defend and track back enough to be b2b player.
That beibg said, restricting him to the center circle would be an injustice to his abilities.
He should be what Isco Silva and Eriksen are to their teams. With his skill set, he should be popping up everywhere. Hopefully he is able to do that next season.
Even if SMS's fee won't mean that we have to sacrifice the quality of players in other positions (I think it will personally), I still don't think he is the type of midfielder we need. He's a brilliant offensive box to box who's better further up the pitch. For midfield balance, I think we need more of a deep lying playmaker that can cover the ground that Pogba and Matic can't. As great a midfield of Pogba-Matic-SMS sounds, I think it's still lacking balance defensively. Fred is more suited to fill that role imo.
Really interesting stats. Thanks for sharing that.
Expetedly, there arent many genuine CMs in that list. Banega, Modric, Kroos and Jorginho stand out.
If Banega didn't have such a bad history as a professional, he would have been a good signing.
Also interesting to see Luis Alberto there. He plays a very advanced role for Lazio, but if he could do a KDB and add the same level of work rate to his game, he could make a good partner for Pogba, they could alternate between sitting and going forward.
Pogba was better in the early part of the season when he was playing deeper. Since he's been asked to be the AM in a midfield three, he's overcomplicated his game and got worse.
According to your own description and requirements, Pogba would be the perfect fit:
Savic is good enough in the opposition box to pick up the attacking slack with Pogba. And he's hardworking enough to pick up the defensive slack with Matic.
According to your own description and requirements, Pogba would be the perfect fit:
Savic is good enough in the opposition box to pick up the attacking slack with Pogba. And he's hardworking enough to pick up the defensive slack with Matic.
From what I've seen, SMS is pretty damn good at defending.
I dont know if SMS is the best we can get in that hole position. Surely there must be better, more dynamic players in that position?
Also if we could also play a 4-2-2-2 formation it would offset the need for a typical "hole" player (like we did against Chelsea). In that case we would need a world class player that can sit next to or just ahead of Matic while the full backs provide the width and two AMs /false wingers (Pogba and Willian for eg.) can together act as hole players. In that scenario we don't need someone like SMS.
Pogba at his best (at Juve) was next to someone who fits that billing more, in Pirlo.
With us Pogba has shown he can play that role himself and it does seem that Mourinho originally wanted him to do that, but he's also shown that he hasn't been able to do it anywhere near consistently. And, along with central defence, it's the most important position on the park to be consistent.
Preferably we would have a Modric or a Banega style of player doing that role, somebody who is completely natural in that position and doing the 'boring' job of setting the tempo and controlling the team around. Pogba can then work with that player to really try to control the midfield between the two of them, while also being able to focus more on causing havoc further forward. Basically the same role that he did at Juve.
One thing you mentioned in your next post and that I see mentioned sometimes on here, is about how Pogba hasn't been any better (perhaps worse) when playing in a 433 in the last couple of months. It has to be remembered that the balance of that three man midfield has been wrong. It can work against top teams where we need to play more defensively ourselves, but against the majority of teams having both Matic and Herrera leads to a real lack of quality in that position. Neither or them are really suitable for that role so Pogba still ends up having to take on the bulk of the playmaking duties, while also now being expected to do more further forward.
We are being linked a lot to Fred, who going by the videos looks like the right 'type' of player. Whether he's good enough or not I have no idea.
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What im trying to convey is that Pogba should be in the final third. Ideally he should be going what Eriksen does for Spurs. Because that's what he's good at.
What you're referring to IMO was during the beginning of the season. But as the season progressed and teams started figuring us out better one could see that Matic was getting increasingly isolated in midfield because all Pogba wanted to do was go forward.
Mourinho gestured many times to Pogba that he wants him to sit in the center circle but whenever apogba played there he looked unhappy and restricted. Spurs and the substitute appearance against Sevilla come to mind.
Moreover, Pogba himself said that he prefers to play on the left of a three in midfield.
SMS , IMO would give us a lot of things Pogba already does. We need a more mobile, dynamic and genuine central midfielder IMO.
Please tell your brother to join United.
Vanja is Sergej Milinkovic Savic's brother.
His brother Vanja used to play for our youth team.
that position doesn't need dynamism. It need a person who can make things happen there. A regular through ball threader for example
We'd still need an alternative to Pogba
I dont think in any scenario do we need a player that prefers to play in the same position as Pogba or is an alternative to Pogba. Unless of course if Pogba is leaving. You wont find that teams buy top players that play the exact same position. The idea is to have players that offer different solutions, not the same one.
Especially because we have plenty of positions we need to fill with quality players (LB, RB, CM, RW) before we start thinking about finding alternatives to Pogba. SMS even though seems like a very good player, is not needed as urgently as a proper ball playing midfielder.
And of course that position requires dynamism. Because that player must have the ability to take over part of the defensive and offensive burden of Matic and Pogba, respectively.
buying a regular through ball threader with no defensive skills or a defensive player with limited ball playing skills will cause our current problems to persist.
Not losing the ball easily + tenacity in tackles + flair in creative passing sounds like the perfect balance to the midfield. Someone mentioned we have Herrera to fill this role, and he does, but he's not consistent enough and not accurate enough bringing the ball forward to transform the midfield into a title-winning side.
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But MS isnt limited in ball skill or defensive ability. He is basically a Pogba who is actually comfortable behind a striker. United IMO would be infinitely better with '2 Pogba's 'and Matic. For one would constantly support the strikers and be a second presence in the box whilst the main Pogba excels in his box to box role floating between supporting Matic and attacking the left channel. It would also eliminate this talk of "needless dribbling from deep' levelled at Pogba.
SMS would be great here, id even welcome ADM over Mata or Herrera. I just want quality players that the squad is lacking in certain positions Cm, LW, RB, LB, CB.
Indeed. Right now we need an attacking right and left back, an experienced cb, a new carrick, a 10 and a right winger.
Quality player and tbh Im not hung up on what positions we need and more they style of football we play.
Of course I understand what you're saying. I imagine it the same way as you do. But that idea isn't realistic since Pogba doesn't want to play in a 2 man midfield.
His defensive output isn't good enough for that. I don't think he excels in a box to box role. In fact Mourinho in a press conference refused to call him a box to box player too.
If our midfield trio was to consist of SMS, Pogba and Matic it would be the slowest midfield trio in history. Neither of the 3 are very mobile. If we were to Buy SMS, then we would need a fast CDM destroyer like Kante, to make up for the lack of agility from PP and SMS. While this is possible, i seriously doubt Matic will be dropped.
As you stated, we either need to use PP fully as a box to box player, or buy an agile box to box player to play beside Pogba and Matic. Personally i prefer Pogba playing the same "free" role he had at Juventus.
We have been heavily linked with:
Jorginho: Ball playing midfielder, with low physical and defensive abilities, but excellent passing. Him, Matic and Pogba would not create a balanced midfield trio if we where not to control the ball, which Mourinho don't want to do. Would be suitable against teams parking the bus, not on teams parking the bus.
SMS: As stated he is very similar to Pogba in most ways, but less movable and is not very interested in doing defensive duties. Having watched some Lazio games this season he looks even more lazy than Martial on the pitch. This trio will not suit against possesion based thems with fast passing and so on.
Fred: Similar to Jorgino in that he is good at passing, and not the best in defensive contributions, nor is he fast or strong. Would not help balancing our midfield.
Anderson Talisca: Again, very similar to Pogba in stature and abilities. Big and somewhat slow. Same results as SMS.
Seeing as we are going to two midfielders, then we should look for more balanced and agile players, mitigating our lack of mobility.
Our nr1. target should be Lucas Torreira, age 22(Sampdoria; Linked with Liverpool, Atletico, Napoli and Juventus. Has a VERY high star in Serie A). Roumored to cost around £40m. Extremely good at reading passing and player movement, and agile and fast reactions. Making him difficult to play against, like Kante is. Not the biggest or strongest player, but we have enough of those. Very good right foot, and very comfortable using his left for both long and short passing. He can also shot, dribble and unlike many other South Americans he is not afraid to get dirty or tackle. Meaning that he can play as a box to box, and also as a CMD(same role as Kante). I predict he will be the next big thing coming out of Serie A,if he not already is. Would fit well into Mourinhos "pragmatic tactics.
Some stats comparing him to player in similar position in the EPL:
Stats comparing him to our transfer target:
Even though stats are not all, and the best thing is to watch him play live, here are a couple of youtube videos of him:
Highlights this season;
Last season;
Of the players we have been linked with Jean Michael Seri would be my prefered player. More balanced than the others, and cheaper. Would also increase or mobility and ability to press higher. And if we were to buy both Seri and Torreira we could rotate between Matic, Pogba, Torreira and Seri, thus giving Matic and Pogba some needed rest during the season. Which was not done enough this season, and was a reason for Matic dip in form.
From what I've seen, Fred is more what we need, technical, agile, can break the defensive line with a pass or through ball, he would add balance alongside Pogba and Matic. That said, SMS is very tempting - in an ideal world, we will get both. But we wont.
If our midfield trio was to consist of SMS, Pogba and Matic it would be the slowest midfield trio in history. Neither of the 3 are very mobile. If we were to Buy SMS, then we would need a fast CDM destroyer like Kante, to make up for the lack of agility from PP and SMS. While this is possible, i seriously doubt Matic will be dropped.
As you stated, we either need to use PP fully as a box to box player, or buy an agile box to box player to play beside Pogba and Matic. Personally i prefer Pogba playing the same "free" role he had at Juventus.
We have been heavily linked with:
Jorginho: Ball playing midfielder, with low physical and defensive abilities, but excellent passing. Him, Matic and Pogba would not create a balanced midfield trio if we where not to control the ball, which Mourinho don't want to do. Would be suitable against teams parking the bus, not on teams parking the bus.
SMS: As stated he is very similar to Pogba in most ways, but less movable and is not very interested in doing defensive duties. Having watched some Lazio games this season he looks even more lazy than Martial on the pitch. This trio will not suit against possesion based thems with fast passing and so on.
Fred: Similar to Jorgino in that he is good at passing, and not the best in defensive contributions, nor is he fast or strong. Would not help balancing our midfield.
Anderson Talisca: Again, very similar to Pogba in stature and abilities. Big and somewhat slow. Same results as SMS.
Seeing as we are going to two midfielders, then we should look for more balanced and agile players, mitigating our lack of mobility.
Our nr1. target should be Lucas Torreira, age 22(Sampdoria; Linked with Liverpool, Atletico, Napoli and Juventus. Has a VERY high star in Serie A). Roumored to cost around £40m. Extremely good at reading passing and player movement, and agile and fast reactions. Making him difficult to play against, like Kante is. Not the biggest or strongest player, but we have enough of those. Very good right foot, and very comfortable using his left for both long and short passing. He can also shot, dribble and unlike many other South Americans he is not afraid to get dirty or tackle. Meaning that he can play as a box to box, and also as a CMD(same role as Kante). I predict he will be the next big thing coming out of Serie A,if he not already is. Would fit well into Mourinhos "pragmatic tactics.
Some stats comparing him to player in similar position in the EPL:
Stats comparing him to our transfer target:
Even though stats are not all, and the best thing is to watch him play live, here are a couple of youtube videos of him:
Highlights this season;
Last season;
Of the players we have been linked with Jean Michael Seri would be my prefered player. More balanced than the others, and cheaper. Would also increase or mobility and ability to press higher. And if we were to buy both Seri and Torreira we could rotate between Matic, Pogba, Torreira and Seri, thus giving Matic and Pogba some needed rest during the season. Which was not done enough this season, and was a reason for Matic dip in form.
Nice idea I must say
If IRC he dsaid Pogba can do it all. Truth is Pogba is a box to box player. Its just He hasn't ever learned how to play in a double Pivot before. But he isnt comfortable as a 10 yet Jose has his hear set on a 4-2-3-1.. In time IMO he will adjust.
The problem we've had is he is our only true creative outlet. So he gets caught between yearning to support the striker and our auxilary 10 and aiding Matic. Yet if he brought in a creative 10 or another player similar to him but comfortable that high up field, he wouldnt be caught in two minds any more. He'd be able to dominate the area in between the boxes, yet close enough always to help Matic and able to drift late in the box occassionally. Just like when he was in Juve's diamond. For he thrives best when he is at the center of the action in the heart of midfield. Not on the periphery in the hole. Truth is we are largely in agreement on this matter. I wish we could find a dynamic 10 ala Kovavcic, Kroos, Thiago, Iniesta or Modric. But they are a dying breed imo.
When speaking about extremely talented professional athletes I can’t understand how about 40 hours a week in training, tactic sessions etc can’t allow two supreme athletes to learn how to pay together. We’re not talking about Phil Jones up top. Both players have the talent and abilities needed to play in a two supported by Matic. Enough of the excuses.
If our midfield trio was to consist of SMS, Pogba and Matic it would be the slowest midfield trio in history. Neither of the 3 are very mobile. If we were to Buy SMS, then we would need a fast CDM destroyer like Kante, to make up for the lack of agility from PP and SMS. While this is possible, i seriously doubt Matic will be dropped.
As you stated, we either need to use PP fully as a box to box player, or buy an agile box to box player to play beside Pogba and Matic. Personally i prefer Pogba playing the same "free" role he had at Juventus.
We have been heavily linked with:
Jorginho: Ball playing midfielder, with low physical and defensive abilities, but excellent passing. Him, Matic and Pogba would not create a balanced midfield trio if we where not to control the ball, which Mourinho don't want to do. Would be suitable against teams parking the bus, not on teams parking the bus.
SMS: As stated he is very similar to Pogba in most ways, but less movable and is not very interested in doing defensive duties. Having watched some Lazio games this season he looks even more lazy than Martial on the pitch. This trio will not suit against possesion based thems with fast passing and so on.
Fred: Similar to Jorgino in that he is good at passing, and not the best in defensive contributions, nor is he fast or strong. Would not help balancing our midfield.
Anderson Talisca: Again, very similar to Pogba in stature and abilities. Big and somewhat slow. Same results as SMS.
Seeing as we are going to two midfielders, then we should look for more balanced and agile players, mitigating our lack of mobility.
Our nr1. target should be Lucas Torreira, age 22(Sampdoria; Linked with Liverpool, Atletico, Napoli and Juventus. Has a VERY high star in Serie A). Roumored to cost around £40m. Extremely good at reading passing and player movement, and agile and fast reactions. Making him difficult to play against, like Kante is. Not the biggest or strongest player, but we have enough of those. Very good right foot, and very comfortable using his left for both long and short passing. He can also shot, dribble and unlike many other South Americans he is not afraid to get dirty or tackle. Meaning that he can play as a box to box, and also as a CMD(same role as Kante). I predict he will be the next big thing coming out of Serie A,if he not already is. Would fit well into Mourinhos "pragmatic tactics.
Some stats comparing him to player in similar position in the EPL:
Stats comparing him to our transfer target:
Even though stats are not all, and the best thing is to watch him play live, here are a couple of youtube videos of him:
Highlights this season;
Last season;
Of the players we have been linked with Jean Michael Seri would be my prefered player. More balanced than the others, and cheaper. Would also increase or mobility and ability to press higher. And if we were to buy both Seri and Torreira we could rotate between Matic, Pogba, Torreira and Seri, thus giving Matic and Pogba some needed rest during the season. Which was not done enough this season, and was a reason for Matic dip in form.
Been reading rave reviews of this guy
Looks like we may be pulling out. Guess that gives Pereira an opportunity to impress next season, if we don't go on to sign someone else.
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It's a shame but we've much bigger needs than a CM right now, rather spend the money on a LB/RB/RW.
Makes sense, Fred seems a better fit and 100m euros is expensive when we need to sign 2 CMs
SMS is considered to expensive for us - twitter quoting di marzio
100m does seem over the top tbh. I think we would be interested at 60m
100m is way too expensive. I didn't think they were actually serious with that price.
Nevermind.
Nevermind.
Glad we aren't paying that ridiculous fee. Can't think of any club matching that.
We have too many holes to be spending €100m on a player.
It's part of why we have problems. We've spent about £300m on transfers under Mourinho. About £165m of that has gone on just two players. Using that strategy, you're in trouble if those two players don't light it up.
We have too many holes to be spending €100m on a player.
It's part of why we have problems. We've spent about £300m on transfers under Mourinho. About £165m of that has gone on just two players. Using that strategy, you're in trouble if those two players don't light it up.
Fred would be ideal for us, but if Pogba wants out, Savic would be a good replacement for him. I do think that Mourinho will bring in a RW player also.
The price is the same as has been quoted all along so it's little wonder that this isn't a goer, the same amount of money as Pogba for a player no where near as recognised while City are getting Jorginho for half the price? No thanks
Pogba won't leave this season. If he leaves the next, we can easily go for Savic.
I like Pogba, but his inconsistency and the fact that his agent is Raiola means that we don't need to cry if he leaves. Plenty of replacements for a midfielder available.