Dan James might’ve been as technically gifted but at least he showed more determination and courage than McTominay.
Scott McTominay | Transfer discussion not performance discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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I just don’t think he’s under rated, he wouldn’t start for team at bottom of table, doesn’t start for Scotland in midfield and doesn’t stand out when he does. There’s plenty of better midfielders at other teams in the bottom half not just Southampton.
I’d say he’s been massively over rated at Utd to the extent he has now played over 200 times despite being a very ordinary player.
Who has overrated him? Probably only the managers and/or coaching staff if you really want to run that argument because they're the ones that have played him. So it's a number of experienced football people that have supposedly overrated him within the context that he's played 200 games but he wasn't necessarily a nailed on first teamer for any sustained period.
I think it would be pretty dubious to suggest the fan perception is one of overrating him. He must be one of the most criticised players we have over his period with the club. The criticism had merit at times and and others was perhaps over the top, but either way I think the balance would veer towards criticism over praise. That's why I believe he is at times underrated compared to fan opinion, it's set at a level where a huge amount of hyperbole is attached to the criticism that it's quite clear to me he's not as bad as many are claiming and very few that are offering a defence for him are claiming he's anything other than a decent PL footballer.
Bizarre that people are comparing him to Cleverly. They aren’t remotely similar.
Anyway, the problem with Scott is that he isn’t good enough to be a starter at a top side and he also isn’t consistently reliable enough to be useful as a squad player. He’s had several spells of up to half a dozen games where’s he’s looked really decent, followed by longer periods of looking like a clumsy oaf who hides from the ball. Having gained a reputation as a “defensive” player has done him no favours at all.
He might well prove to be a useful and productive signing for a mid-table club if he’s used regularly in his best position: as an attack-minded box to box player. He’s good at driving the ball forward and putting himself about a bit. He’s certainly neither a reliable passer nor a good tackler, but I think he could do well.
Anyway, the problem with Scott is that he isn’t good enough to be a starter at a top side and he also isn’t consistently reliable enough to be useful as a squad player. He’s had several spells of up to half a dozen games where’s he’s looked really decent, followed by longer periods of looking like a clumsy oaf who hides from the ball. Having gained a reputation as a “defensive” player has done him no favours at all.
He might well prove to be a useful and productive signing for a mid-table club if he’s used regularly in his best position: as an attack-minded box to box player. He’s good at driving the ball forward and putting himself about a bit. He’s certainly neither a reliable passer nor a good tackler, but I think he could do well.
He has been a nailed on regular starter for at least 50% of his time here I’d say. His defenders just liked to trot out that he was a ‘squad player’ despite him starting almost every week.
And he is also not one of the most criticised players over his time here either. That is just recency bias. He was massively overrated for years, and if you want to speak about hyperbole - go back and read any of his performance threads from 2019-2021, or frankly any of the other threads that were created across the forum to celebrate his as some sort of second coming of Roy Keane. And that wasn’t limited to this forum, even the proclaimed experts in the press and tv media lavished praise on him, and even now - the retractions or acknowledgment that he’s a million miles away from being good enough in the media is extremely limited.
I think this a very reasonable take on the whole McT thing. Fans moaned online but he kept getting picked.
Saying he's a squad player isn't a defence of the player and his performances. It might be a mistaken reading but it doesn't defend the player. If anything it suggests they forget how regularly he plays. That wouldn't be a compliment, I'm pretty sure we are fully cognisant of when Casemiro is or isn't playing and certainly if many thought he was Roy Keane as you allude to that presents a conundrum. Or perhaps that they believe he ought to be a squad player when he wasn't, which again is not a defence. Not sure what point you were trying to drive at with that one.
I wouldn't say it's recency bias. Debate around McTominay has been more active in the 3 preceding seasons when he was relevant. I think going on that he's not good enough at this point when the manager evidently doesn't fancy him, he appears to be on the market and we have a body of evidence saying he's not good enough for us would be labouring the point. So naturally the talk around the player is much less active compared to the height of it under Jose and especially Ole. That's not really recent, that's my feeling of what the criticism and analysis was like from when he actually played, I'm not sure what else I'd go off.
Clearly we have a different perception of what the common feeling has been on him. I'm slightly baffled that you would maintain that he's largely been seen in a positive light, i.e. the majority at some point seeing him the way you describe as the next Keane etc. But whatever, there's not much we can do about a perception of opinion, I think a lot of the time it depends on where we stand on a topic and then we tend to view everything through that prism. If you thought he had few redeeming qualities then probably the people who thought he was good particularly stood out to you.
McTominay has defenders? Or anyone posting anything remotely positive about him is his defender?
I don't know what the argument is on this thread but if you lot are arguing about the idea of selling McTominay in the summer, then you have nothing to do in your life right now because it's a no brainer decision to move him on. He hasn't been good enough to be Man United midfielder. We already have Casemiro and we should buy a young one like Lavia for long term replacement. A no brainer football investment and transfer plan that shouldn't even require long discussion.
But if the argument is about the transfer fees then I can understand it but let's not make things complicate here. He's on small wages meaning minimum I expect any clubs willing to put minimum 25m pounds bid on him. Something about 25m-30m pounds isn't a lot for 26 years old homegrown and low wages.
But if the argument is about the transfer fees then I can understand it but let's not make things complicate here. He's on small wages meaning minimum I expect any clubs willing to put minimum 25m pounds bid on him. Something about 25m-30m pounds isn't a lot for 26 years old homegrown and low wages.
It's really only been the last 18 months or so (mostly since Rangnick took over) that the criticism really came to the fore. Before that he was, compared to most others in the team, getting away with relatively light criticism. There was some criticism of course, but both in the media and on here he did have a lot more defenders than what his performances really warranted. The most obvious comparison was with Fred who was getting criticised and disliked far far more despite outperforming him quite comfortably.
McTominay might not be up to the level to play CM for united, but any suggestion he isn't premier league level for a midtable and below side is quite frankly laughable.
Whenever he leaves and has a few good games at his new club, who will make the first post about how we should sign him as a squad player?
Barely anymore. Was a long road to get here though.
There were very brief moments during OIe's tenure where MCT had shown 'carrick-like' vision in his role but that never lasted.
Even if they offer £20m, take it and run.
One of the worst midfielders to ever play for us, 200 appearances. Christ.
One of the worst midfielders to ever play for us, 200 appearances. Christ.
I like McTominay and if he’s looking to leave to get playing time I respect him a great deal for it. Too many times in the past decade we’ve had players refuse to leave despite having no future here to collect wages.
Reading our forum sometimes looks like we are reading other clubs ones. I dont know why we rate our players so so badly. Mctom is not world class by any means but hes a PL players and will be decent enough for others when hes bought. Reading this thread looks like hes the worst players ever playing for us.
Would be a good signing for Newcastle if it happens.
A decent squad option for United, would be a starter for a lot of other sides in the premiership.
Not sure who the United 'supporters' would use as a scapegoat for bad performances should he go though. Potentially no DDG, McT and Maguire not involved, my money would be on Bruno.
A decent squad option for United, would be a starter for a lot of other sides in the premiership.
Not sure who the United 'supporters' would use as a scapegoat for bad performances should he go though. Potentially no DDG, McT and Maguire not involved, my money would be on Bruno.
Well he's been one half of the crappest regular midfield pairing we have ever had* while we were shit. That's probably why.
He also doesn't have any really obvious qualities, it genuinely amazes me that Newcastle are interested, none of us would look at him as a potential player to sign, even as a squad option.
After all this time I couldn't tell you his best position. He can't play deep, he's not a good enough passer to play higher up. He runs about a bit though!
*slightly hyperbolic
I understand that, it just goes by some of our posters claiming, he is very bad quality and even a championship player which is untrue. I know that most of us dont like him and view him as part of bad years that we had (Fred is very much the same) but that was very much the same with almost all of our players.
Hes a decent enough player for PL teams and if utilise to his best could be a good player. Hes good enough when use as Box to Box and for him to run and trynto score in the box. But our managers really just use him most as part of the DM (the period when we dont really have others to play there). Its more of people dont like him, i suppose.
Which exactly he is. As regular starter of course.
McTominay needs to go. All are agreed on that. But let's not mince words - our fans think any player not good enough for United is not even PL quality. I was hearing the same about Pereira the last couple of years. I was hearing Rashford is championship quality for years too. I have no doubt he'll do really well for a mid table team.
Exactly, im not argue that hes not what we want now and future. But hes still be a decent player for other PL sides. Its like we hate our player so much that we talk them down way too low.
Whatever people may say about McTominay, and I agree that he should leave for regular first team football elsewhere, we should show some respect to the guy. He always gave 100%, was completely committed to the club, and never put a foot out of line. He was ready to step up to the first team when asked, and he was happy to sit quietly on the bench and give it his all when brought on to play. He just doesn't have the same level of natural ability as some others.
Compare this to some of his peers, who have much more natural ability, like Ronaldo and Pogba, who have disrespected the club with their actions. There is a reason that he outlasted both of those two at the club. We have ambitions to be the best club in the world, and players like Mctominay and Fred may not be able to help us achieve those goals, but we should remember that they have been loyal servants of the club, and have acted professionally and maintained their dignity, and have helped form part of the squad that is now set to write the next chapter in our history. They may not go down in history as legends of the club, and now is probably the right time to move them on, but we should show them the same level of respect that they have shown for the club.
Compare this to some of his peers, who have much more natural ability, like Ronaldo and Pogba, who have disrespected the club with their actions. There is a reason that he outlasted both of those two at the club. We have ambitions to be the best club in the world, and players like Mctominay and Fred may not be able to help us achieve those goals, but we should remember that they have been loyal servants of the club, and have acted professionally and maintained their dignity, and have helped form part of the squad that is now set to write the next chapter in our history. They may not go down in history as legends of the club, and now is probably the right time to move them on, but we should show them the same level of respect that they have shown for the club.
He doesn't play in the same way Cleverley does but there is a similarity in how passive they both were/are and how far away they are from being good enough for this level.
McTominay will go to a bottom half club and be a good player. He can sit back without the pressure of having to dominate midfield, throw himself into a few crunching tackles to get the fans going, and make the odd surging run forward. Exactly the sort of player who will turn up against a top team but can't play for one.
Yeah fair enough. Though I think his Surging Runs Forward are actually quite good and he’d be a more productive player if he was in a position to do more of them.
Cleverly was a textbook “neat and tidy” player, with decent technical skills but zero ability to put them to positive effect.
He had a confidence problem. He didn't have the mentality for a Ferguson team but the ability was there. If he were breaking through now I'm quite sure he'd get more games than McTominay, though still not be good enough.
Indeed. He probably needed to be in a much more directive system than he had at United. By the time LvG arrived it was too late.
In what possible way are you measuring that?
Like I said.
i just dont get the importance we place on "giving his all" to the club. Pretty much any of us would "give our all" if united said hey heres 50k a week or whatever go play some footy. Doesnt make him magically good enough. If you can get 20 mill for him cool, sell and bring in players who can become top class hopefully at some point. Accepting mediocrity is how we got into stupid situations where we wonder how a player is still here after 10 seasons.
We need to improve on McT. He will be a good player for a mid-lower PL club because he does have attributes that are useful in the PL.
The issue is at United in that position the way we are wanting to play, you cannot be lose with the ball and off the ball, you have to be switched on, I do see McT get caught the wrong side alot, in comparison a Casemiro knows where the ball will drop and is there for the second ball.
The one thing we need to look at is getting a better passing player.
The issue is at United in that position the way we are wanting to play, you cannot be lose with the ball and off the ball, you have to be switched on, I do see McT get caught the wrong side alot, in comparison a Casemiro knows where the ball will drop and is there for the second ball.
The one thing we need to look at is getting a better passing player.
Clears it up then.
Pretty funny that every player that has a shit game is now a "scapegoat". Get a grip, he's been largely a crap midfielder for us for years and a big reason why we never had any sort of control in so many games he started. That's not really scapegoating to point it out either.
I'm interested to hear from everyone that thinks he'll be good for a mid table side: what attributes do you think he has and how do they fit?
Because from my POV, McTominay is probably best suited in a true box to box role without any real passing or reserved defensive responsibilities past just chasing the ball around. His highest level quality is that he's a pretty good striker of the football and finisher for a midfielder, so you need him closer to goal, but there aren't many set ups in modern football for that sort of player. Generally you want your advanced midfielders to be creative and technically proficient on the ball under pressure, but he's neither. And of course so many look at his size and just assume he's a DM, where he's genuine low level Championship quality in that sort of role.
Because from my POV, McTominay is probably best suited in a true box to box role without any real passing or reserved defensive responsibilities past just chasing the ball around. His highest level quality is that he's a pretty good striker of the football and finisher for a midfielder, so you need him closer to goal, but there aren't many set ups in modern football for that sort of player. Generally you want your advanced midfielders to be creative and technically proficient on the ball under pressure, but he's neither. And of course so many look at his size and just assume he's a DM, where he's genuine low level Championship quality in that sort of role.
Good to see some sense in this thread. Find it infuriating reading some of the nonsense about him being one of our worst ever players - he's far from it (the fact he's linked with Newcastle shows that I guess!).
I'm pretty sure I've not imagined numerous good performances from him (most recent one being our last league game). He may not be good enough to start for us every week but football is a SQUAD game and you need players who are happy to be squad players, on lower wages and understand what it means to be a United player. You can't have a £40m asset in every squad position unless you are playing FIFA but unfortunately we live in a social media era where every mistake is scrutinised and players like him almost become a joke/meme. The same thing that's happened with Maguire (who also would start for the majority of top 10 teams in the league btw!).
I hope he stays and I'm sure ETH (who clearly rates him along with the last 3 United managers) will keep him if he's happy to play a squad role.
When I first watched McTominay I actually thought he'd have the potential to become a regular United starter. He wasn't particularly gifted but he had a bit of toughness about him that could have made him a useful cog in the machine. But he never developed his game and instead of becoming a cog in the machine he's more like a stick stuck in the wheel. A shame, as someone could put together a decent video of highlights of McTominay over the years...but one could also put together a video of one abomination after another.
McTominay should be sold this summer to make room for more promising players such as Mainoo.
McTominay should be sold this summer to make room for more promising players such as Mainoo.
I'd say the bigger reason is the fact we haven't had a cohesive team/managerial appointment/plan since he's been around.
Looked brilliant in Jose's first season, albeit in a handful of games, but in a strong team he excelled.
Has also looked decent this season, again in a strong team that has a cohesive plan.
He has been scapegoated massively, it's not controversial to say that. He's had his fair amount of good games along with some big goals, he has also had some shockers. No worse or better than most in the team since he's been involved.
But fans on here have permanently tried to blame the ills of a team on one player, for a while it was Maguire, then it was DDG, then McT, then Bruno for a bit and now Maguire hasn't been involved it's back to McT when he plays.
Always thought it was strange that multiple managers kept playing him despite the clubs 'supporters' seemingly knowing better.
god there is nothing i hate more than people trying to point that multiple managers play a certain player or that managers know better than us. Maybe people should ask themselves why multiple managers have had the opportunity in a relatively short time to play people like mctominay. Managers arent infallible.
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