[NZT-One]

I think that a lot of people dont seem to value when a player improves defensively - other than maybe a CB. Ander didnt get a lot of credit when he developed defensively instead of as an attacking player when Pogba came in and they played together. Likewise McTom is improving in this way, going more towards an Ndidi type of physical ball winner in the middle while early on his best quality was shooting around the box. While Fletcher was more of an all rounder and developed going forward as well. So I think that might be why people are slow to give McTom credit.

For someone who I genuinely felt was out of his depth, he has not just surprised me, he’s shocked me. The level of improvement is drastic. Against Brighton he was embarsssing. And then his cameo appearance against Brentford was shocking to the point he was shot to bits.

But his performances since Liverpool compared to the last 12/18 months have been absolutely brilliant.

He actually gives genuine hope that he can be a big part of the team. ETH has to get massive credit as coaching is having a huge impact not just on him but the whole team.

Fair play to McTom, he’s been brilliant and deserves all the praise he’s getting. Long may it continue.

What I love the most is it has kept Casemiro on the bench. Not because I don’t want Casemiro to play. But because it sends an extremely strong message from ETH to the rest of the squad that even if you’ve won 5 UCLs, it doesn’t guarantee you start if someone else is playing better.

Under Ole, RR and Jose, Casemiro would have gone straight into the lineup and McTominay barely seen.

The more he gets bigged up, the higher the fall once it happens. There is a lot of correct things in what you are saying, but to say he is developing into an Ndidi role after what is like 3 or 4 games is borderline optimistic. Lets see how he deals with opponents who will be prepared to our style of play. Once they are sitting back, isolating Eriksen, leaving moving the ball to McTominay. He always had the occasional good performances in him - question is will he be able to finally make the next step.

That's something I'm not sure I could disagree with more. My single biggest issue with Scott has been that he's still basically the exact same player he was when he first broke through. Maybe slightly better defensive positioning, but otherwise I don't think he's improved at all. Still makes the same mistakes, still has the same strengths and weaknesses. In fact I would say that his longest run of actual good form was in the latter part of 18/19 and early part of 19/20.

In his defence though, I think a big reason for that is that the management and coaching teams we've had since he broke through have been atrocious at developing players. I've mentioned that in other posts about other players, and I think Scott is another good example of it. He has the occasional good period where it looks like he's finally going to come good, but after a month or so he drops back off. He's had a promising start to life under ETH so I do hope that this time it's the real deal, but I can't help but remember that he did the same when Rangnick took over where he was very good for the first month before losing all form again. ETH is the first I have faith in to develop players properly though so fingers crossed.

Completely agree

 

[lysglimt]

That is the exact same rating that i have him on at the moment. That is mostly because i (and a lot of other people) rated him really low the first two games. He played well since but those first two games were brutal. Hardly passed the ball, second touch was a legbreaker tackle and just played badly. Those games will take his average down by a lot. I also missed a few matches so didnt give him a rating that could improve his average.

I still think its too low even with a really score in both those games - but fair enough

 

[Foxbatt]

I think there is a difference now that he is not asked to do things he can't do. He is a big chap and is not getting bounced around like Fred.

 

[OleGunnar20]

Great to see him improving so markedly. ETH and Co are clearly doing some great work with him and he's clearly making the most. Long may it continue.

I'd written him off long ago. Here's hoping he continues to prove me wrong.

 

[Bobski]

Scott McTominay rating 5.3 - are people really that clueless about football in here ?

The first couple of games(after Brentford), people refused to accept that he played well and were marking him down just because. You can guarantee that when he does have a bad game the backlash will be vicious.

 

[Ekeke]

The more he gets bigged up, the higher the fall once it happens. There is a lot of correct things in what you are saying, but to say he is developing into an Ndidi role after what is like 3 or 4 games is borderline optimistic. Lets see how he deals with opponents who will be prepared to our style of play. Once they are sitting back, isolating Eriksen, leaving moving the ball to McTominay. He always had the occasional good performances in him - question is will he be able to finally make the next step.


Completely agree

I mean to say thats the direction he's improving in, not that he's as good. In this previous 1 match he was maybe as good. But thats it

 

[NoPace]

He is not (much) worse than Fletcher was. Fletcher gets overrated since he retired and he also played in stable, well functioning winning teams whereas McT is under his 4th manager in almost as many years and playing in average teams.
I also see more and more people putting Fletcher, Carrick and Butt in the same sentence as if they were of similar quality and then claiming how they were miles better than McT.
Butt and Carrick indeed were, but not Fletcher, not at all.
Fletcher was a good lad, decent hard working player, but my god does he get overrated with every passing season.

Fletcher's peak was really high. Made the 09/10 PFA team of the year over a healthy Mascherano and Lampard (who scored 22 goals that year in the league!). Miles better than McTominay.

 

[Bebestation]

Except one great season from Fletcher - I much more enjoy Mctominay as a player.

A bit like how Mctominay is suddenly playing great under Ten Hag - Fletcher played great only one season after arguably being coached all his life by the GOAT - whilst Mctominay got managers like Ole.

 

[nau05194]

Every time United make a change of manager there are people who always say it will be Scott McTominay who will go out of the team but he is another one who rises to the challenge and says I am not going out of the team which is great. Now Scott’s got real competition in Casemiro and is still holding his place in the team and is enjoying it. His performances have been good and he has deserved to play in the team.

For me McTominay’s best position is right sided centre- back. He plays it well for us. He also plays the defensive midfield role where he can sit behind the game, but he can also go box to box. So, he has all those attributes to his game which is fantastic for me as a coach to have the chance to work with a player like that. It is a credit to Scott that he can do that.

He just wants to play for his country, he says wherever you want to play me, I will play, which is great. He wants to be part of a successful squad which all these boys do.

Steve Clarke​

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sp...clarke-honest-frank-lampard-nathan-patterson/

Pre-international written press. I thought I'd share in case some of you are interested in seeing him in a different context than United.

 

[dutchred]

He looks like a proper DM this days, long may it continue. If he keeps this up then we'll only need one midfielder to complete the midfield rebuild.
Fred was good under Rangnick but he's too loose with his passing for Ten Hag play maybe he'll turn it around but I feel we'll need an alternative/ long term replacement to Eriksen, overtime we'll see Iqbal get more minutes.
Casemiro, Mctominay, ??, Eriksen, Iqbal, Bruno.

if we keep Eriksen and Casemiro for a couple of years then your ?? will be Mainoo

 

[OrcaFat]

For someone who I genuinely felt was out of his depth, he has not just surprised me, he’s shocked me. The level of improvement is drastic. Against Brighton he was embarsssing. And then his cameo appearance against Brentford was shocking to the point he was shot to bits.

But his performances since Liverpool compared to the last 12/18 months have been absolutely brilliant.

He actually gives genuine hope that he can be a big part of the team. ETH has to get massive credit as coaching is having a huge impact not just on him but the whole team.

Fair play to McTom, he’s been brilliant and deserves all the praise he’s getting. Long may it continue.

What I love the most is it has kept Casemiro on the bench. Not because I don’t want Casemiro to play. But because it sends an extremely strong message from ETH to the rest of the squad that even if you’ve won 5 UCLs, it doesn’t guarantee you start if someone else is playing better.

Under Ole, RR and Jose, Casemiro would have gone straight into the lineup and McTominay barely seen.

I agree with most of this. But he still has the problem of not receiving the ball from his team mates; it’s striking how many more passes Casemiro makes despite being new and off the pace. Casemiro instinctively knows where to position himself.

I like to see the lad improve, get plenty of games, keep the others on their toes. That said, he’s still a level below the ideal first XI quality, in my view.

 

[Poborsky's hair]

He certainly improved, but pretty much everyone who is playing improved, because we improved as a team. Also it is really easy to improve upon the some really week in and out really horrible performances, so the bar was set very low. If we get used to him as a starter then top4 is really our maximum, with the other positions filled with quality, one championship, lower league player in form will not drag us too down. But there are really huge limitations in his game and huge room for improvement when we replace him.

It all seems like that after a while, when a player is as bad as Scott, we just start to praise him for really basic things, which is fine form of encouragement for the player but not exactly the bar set high enough for a top club which should aspire to win Premier league every year dominant way and try to win CHampions leagueevery year.

Because of players like McTominay we became "a battling" club, not the team which rolls over teams. In fairness that's only few teams in the wolrd, however this is exactly what we should be aiming for. We can't just accept mediocrity and settle for second. We should aim to be the best, not just a great club.

That will hopefully come with time, when Ten Haag slowly replaces and upgrade all of the players needed to reach the top. MCT might then become the fringe squad player and leave like Evans or Sheasy, to seek more football elsewhere. In the meantime we should try to implement more talented youngsters for the squad roles, there will be much higher benefit than playing bang average players. Understandably there is a safe way chosen by the gaffer nownew in function. But hopefully he will start throwing kids, not only in preseason...

 

[Poborsky's hair]

I agree with most of this. But he still has the problem of not receiving the ball from his team mates; it’s striking how many more passes Casemiro makes despite being new and off the pace. Casemiro instinctively knows where to position himself.

I like to see the lad improve, get plenty of games, keep the others on their toes. That said, he’s still a level below the ideal first XI quality, in my view.

Yeah he's night and day to Scott, unfortunatelly, who must have already over 120 starts and still can't figure out his positioning both offensively and defensively. Surely Ten Haag will work on this with the player, but he just doesn't have those instincts to become the player of the quality needed, not even talking about his technical ability, which will not do any favours to him.

 

[OrcaFat]

Yeah he's night and day to Scott, unfortunatelly, who must have already over 120 starts and still can't figure out his positioning both offensively and defensively. Surely Ten Haag will work on this with the player, but he just doesn't have those instincts to become the player of the quality needed, not even talking about his technical ability, which will not do any favours to him.

Yeah. He can improve from where he is but I still see him as a squad player. He’s the kind of squad player you want, yes, with a big heart, and his height gives us something different, but he wouldn’t be a first choice starter, for me.

 

[croadyman]

Yeah. He can improve from where he is but I still see him as a squad player. He’s the kind of squad player you want, yes, with a big heart, and his height gives us something different, but he wouldn’t be a first choice starter, for me.

Yeah if we can get another class midfielder with Casemiro like a Caqueret/Bennacer/FDJ,think he will finally become that squad player at Utd

 

[NZT-One]

I think there is a difference now that he is not asked to do things he can't do. He is a big chap and is not getting bounced around like Fred.

I think, that is the main reason for the upwards trend of quite a few of our players, with McTominay probably the one where it is the most visible.

I mean to say thats the direction he's improving in, not that he's as good. In this previous 1 match he was maybe as good. But thats it

Fair enough then. I am most of the time too cautious I guess, but I think, we might be in some sort of honey moon phase right now. I mean, it is easier to look good as a DM if your team is working well together and is set up a little more defensively. We did that to good effect in the last games and I don't think, it will be too long until opponents will decisively react to it. Real Sociedad did this already and the other EL team just as well. Setting up deeper even helped to picture McFred as a viable midfield for a while, but opponents did uncover their weaknesses pretty fast. It might be the same right now. And when it happens, it doesn't change the fact that McTom is a 79-rating player or 86-rating player, it just shows how good we are to exploit his strengths versus how easy it is for opponents to exploit his weaknesses.

 

[united_99]

Fletcher's peak was really high. Made the 09/10 PFA team of the year over a healthy Mascherano and Lampard (who scored 22 goals that year in the league!). Miles better than McTominay.

Peak? Didn’t know a few good months were called peak. If McT continues his current form for a few more months he may also get in the PFA team as of the year. Still wouldn’t mean that he is miles better all of a sudden unless he does it for several seasons.

 

[OrcaFat]

Peak? Didn’t know a few good months were called peak. If McT continues his current form for a few more months he may also get in the PFA team as of the year. Still wouldn’t mean that he is miles better all of a sudden unless he does it for several seasons.

Hey now, McT’s current form is good - as in good for him. His level is still nowhere close to Fletcher in my view. I just don’t know how that could even be a point for debate.

 

[Adam-Utd]

The big difference for me is he's not hiding in front of the centre backs waiting for Lindelof and Maguire to bumble around with the ball and decide what to do.

He's positioning higher up, allowing Varane and Martinez to get the ball up the field. If needs be Eriksen drops in.

On the ball though it's a night and day difference. I saw a stat the other day that said his passing was 90% accuracy which is extremely rare for him.

Defensively he's performing like the Mctominay that helped us get the amazing away record run we had. I guess ETH has just simplified it for him, given him confidence but more importantly added competition.

You have to say so far Scott has risen to that beautifully which is all we ever asked for.

 

[reelworld]

Hey now, McT’s current form is good - as in good for him. His level is still nowhere close to Fletcher in my view. I just don’t know how that could even be a point for debate.

Fletcher first touch and passing ability is much better than McTominay. Fletcher was a teenage prodigy whose development was disrupted by numerous injury. His development was in reverse compared to McTominay. McTominay was brought on because he's physically ready for first team and the rest of his game was developed later. Fletcher was already technically sound but his body wasn't developed yet when he started. But once his physique is ready, he becomes a really good player

 

[NoPace]

Peak? Didn’t know a few good months were called peak. If McT continues his current form for a few more months he may also get in the PFA team as of the year. Still wouldn’t mean that he is miles better all of a sudden unless he does it for several seasons.

$1000 to a charity of your choosing if McTominay gets in the PFA team of the year, and if he doesn't, $100 to mine.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

Sometimes we don't have to have 11 world class players in every position. Long may his good form continue. At this rate we have either a solid player who can do the job required or a competent deputy. His improved current level will be the bare minimum we should be expecting from new DM signings. Mctom is proving many of us wrong. Long may it continue.

 

[abbulf]

If we get used to him as a starter then top4 is really our maximum, with the other positions filled with quality, one championship, lower league player in form will not drag us too down. But there are really huge limitations in his game and huge room for improvement when we replace him.

A bit rich to call him a “championship, lower league player”. He is currently keeping Casemiro and Fred out of the team.
Both of them starts regularly for Brazil. Anyone who can do that is obviously not at a lower league level.

It is clear that he is at least a fairly good premier league player. Where his ceiling is remains to be seen.

 

[RopersReturn]

His positioning has steadily improved as has his reactiveness to situations. He frequently helps out team mates in defensive situations more effectively. The only thing he needs to work on is the weight of some of his passes but that’s something Fernandes needs to work on too.

 

[united_99]

$1000 to a charity of your choosing if McTominay gets in the PFA team of the year, and if he doesn't, $100 to mine.

Forget it, I don‘t bet on money. But seriously being in the PFA team once doesn’t mean anything. There are several past (United) players miles better than Fletcher who only made the team 1-2 times or even not at all.
If McT continues his good form (and the PFA team is voted when the season is ongoing and not after it‘s over iirc) people might vote for him taking into consideration the improvement he has made and that he is keeping someone like Case out of the team. Still wouldn’t mean that he has now turned into a (permanently) good player.
I am also not arguing that McT is a good player (he is decent and has potential to be decent long term). I am just arguing that Fletcher was also nothing better than decent.

 

[NZT-One]

A bit rich to call him a “championship, lower league player”. He is currently keeping Casemiro and Fred out of the team.
Both of them starts regularly for Brazil. Anyone who can do that is obviously not at a lower league level.

It is clear that he is at least a fairly good premier league player. Where his ceiling is remains to be seen.

So if McTominay plays then Fred is good suddenly again just to show how good McTom is? ^^ I guess, this is a bit weird. I agree with your conclusion though.

Forget it, I don‘t bet on money. But seriously being in the PFA team once doesn’t mean anything. There are several past (United) players miles better than Fletcher who only made the team 1-2 times or even not at all.
If McT continues his good form (and the PFA team is voted when the season is ongoing and not after it‘s over iirc) people might vote for him taking into consideration the improvement he has made and that he is keeping someone like Case out of the team. Still wouldn’t mean that he has now turned into a (permanently) good player.
I am also not arguing that McT is a good player (he is decent and has potential to be decent long term). I am just arguing that Fletcher was also nothing better than decent.

Who hasn't shown any of the form that built him the reputation he has today. I think, he looks rusty and might experience a not so smooth adaptation to the league as it is more cut throat than La Liga. Plus he doesn't have the luxury of having a very good defense plus keeper behind him.

 

[OrcaFat]

Forget it, I don‘t bet on money. But seriously being in the PFA team once doesn’t mean anything. There are several past (United) players miles better than Fletcher who only made the team 1-2 times or even not at all.
If McT continues his good form (and the PFA team is voted when the season is ongoing and not after it‘s over iirc) people might vote for him taking into consideration the improvement he has made and that he is keeping someone like Case out of the team. Still wouldn’t mean that he has now turned into a (permanently) good player.
I am also not arguing that McT is a good player (he is decent and has potential to be decent long term). I am just arguing that Fletcher was also nothing better than decent.

Sorry to butt in on this again but there’s “decent” and there’s “decent”…

Being in the PFA team of the year does mean something - it did back then when Fletcher got in and it does now when McT won’t get in.

I think you are right that McT could be decent but he’s very much the bottom end of decent whereas Fletcher was the top of decent. But for injury and illness he would have been in the next class up, whatever you want to call that. In terms of quality there really is no comparison. But I do like McT and I’d love to see him improve technically; there’s just a lot of work to do there.

 

[NoPace]

The big difference for me is he's not hiding in front of the centre backs waiting for Lindelof and Maguire to bumble around with the ball and decide what to do.

He's positioning higher up, allowing Varane and Martinez to get the ball up the field. If needs be Eriksen drops in.

On the ball though it's a night and day difference. I saw a stat the other day that said his passing was 90% accuracy which is extremely rare for him.

Defensively he's performing like the Mctominay that helped us get the amazing away record run we had. I guess ETH has just simplified it for him, given him confidence but more importantly added competition.

You have to say so far Scott has risen to that beautifully which is all we ever asked for.

I think he's still really struggling to get open, which is why he makes so few passes a game for a midfielder.

Could see him doing well at a team like West Ham in the role Soucek was playing but now is struggling at. Not a ton of link play demanded, a DM to be responsible behind him defensively and he can be a #8 and go box to box.

Though if he keeps playing well he'll probably just stick around as the backup to Casemiro and we'll sell Fred and sign a #8 that's better on the ball to give Eriksen some rest and some games as Bruno's backup. Or Iqbal, Mainoo or another youth player will win the role.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

A bit rich to call him a “championship, lower league player”. He is currently keeping Casemiro and Fred out of the team.
Both of them starts regularly for Brazil. Anyone who can do that is obviously not at a lower league level.

I agree in part, he is clearly a Premier League footballer.

The issue I take is that a huge part of rating a player is consistently. Your post is lacking a bit of context in that regard.

Fred: both Fred and McTominay have both played for us for years and Fred has clearly been better than him for the majority of that time.
Casemiro: Has clearly been better than McTominay for years (understatement).

McTominay being in good form for 5 or so games is significantly less important than the above. If he keeps it up all season or even for 6 months consistently then that is different.

 

[Jeppers7]

I’m not fletchers biggest fan, far from it….he’s massively overrated and people say that if he’d been fit for the 09 CL final….well nothing would be different. Barca were perhaps the greatest club side of all time. HOWEVER McT ? He’s not even close to Fletcher in terms of ability or performance.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I think he's still really struggling to get open, which is why he makes so few passes a game for a midfielder.

Could see him doing well at a team like West Ham in the role Soucek was playing but now is struggling at. Not a ton of link play demanded, a DM to be responsible behind him defensively and he can be a #8 and go box to box.

Though if he keeps playing well he'll probably just stick around as the backup to Casemiro and we'll sell Fred and sign a #8 that's better on the ball to give Eriksen some rest and some games as Bruno's backup. Or Iqbal, Mainoo or another youth player will win the role.

With Martinez and Eriksen getting more on the ball it's not really as important which allows him to go higher and be more of a distraction.

I think that was the issue last season, our CB's just weren't progressing well enough and fred/mctominay tried to carry the game but just didn't have the ability.

He tried to be a playmaker when he's a box to box with a decent tackle.

 

[NoPace]

With Martinez and Eriksen getting more on the ball it's not really as important which allows him to go higher and be more of a distraction.

I think that was the issue last season, our CB's just weren't progressing well enough and fred/mctominay tried to carry the game but just didn't have the ability.

He tried to be a playmaker when he's a box to box with a decent tackle.

I just don't think he's good enough at reading the play defensively or passing and moving without the ball for how Ten Hag eventually wants us to play. It's going well enough now, but when you look at the starting XI and us hoping to get a top 4 spot, you'd have to say that McTominay, Malacia, De Gea and the #9 position are the shakiest ones and the other 7 look pretty good. Malacia is the youngest player and was a choice by the new manager. De Gea I expect to leave on a free next summer, we signed Casemiro to replace McTominay and obviously we need a new #9. The question with McTominay now I think is if he's good enough to be the backup to Casemiro, who I assume will establish himself as our DM, though the early returns do suggest we might have paid 70M for 2-3 years of him and with no resale value, which is not great.

 

[Greck]

I just don't think he's good enough at reading the play defensively or passing and moving without the ball for how Ten Hag eventually wants us to play.

Yes, exciting times so I can't blame anyone for doing so but we have probably overreacted to the last couple weeks, at least as it pertains to individual quality. I always rated Mctominay as the ideal squad option kind of player but he and others in general didn't just transform under 2 weeks. After Brentford we adapted our tactics, we haven't been in a sustained possession battle and it suits their weaknesses. The squad's compatibility with the deep counter is really high but it says nothing about their compatibility with the kind of progressive setup we attempted at Brentford. Just saw a stat that we have among the deepest defensive lines. This is ideal for our midfielders, the problem has always been just how hard they fall off when asked to shield a higher defensive line or win a highly contested highly sustained midfield tussle.

 

[NoPace]

Yes, exciting times so I can't blame anyone for doing so but we have probably overreacted to the last couple weeks, at least as it pertains to individual quality. I always rated Mctominay as the ideal squad option kind of player but he and others in general didn't just transform under 2 weeks. After Brentford we adapted our tactics, we haven't been in a sustained possession battle and it suits their weaknesses. The squad's compatibility with the deep counter is really high but it says nothing about their compatibility with the kind of progressive setup we attempted at Brentford. Just saw a stat that we have among the deepest defensive lines. This is ideal for our midfielders, the problem has always been just how hard they fall off when asked to both push up and win a highly contested midfield tussle.

Yeah. If Ten Hag is absolutely set on playing possession football next year, he might even have to sell Bruno and buy a #8, a #9 and passing goalkeeper and hope that that lineup can make it work. We'd still need a backup RB, and a new CB and probably a new #8/10 type, or just keep Bruno and hope he can adapt or is fine with not starting every single game and rotating with Eriksen and a new passing #8. Not sure we can really play like Ajax with Casemiro and Varane anyways.

Casemiro as a buy makes more sense if we keep Bruno and play on the counter. Maybe Ten Hag will just find a hybrid way to play for 2-3 years with those 2 in the midfield (along with Eriksen) and try to make the CL and keep his job while he builds up a team of youths and signings that can play the way he did at Ajax. Tough to say.

 

[Bebestation]

His passing has improved considerably and yet people talk about his passing like nothing has happened.

Feels like some players just can’t get in to heart of some fans no matter how they play or improve.

 

[MadDogg]

His passing has improved considerably and yet people talk about his passing like nothing has happened.

Feels like some players just can’t get in to heart of some fans no matter how they play or improve.

Scott has always had short periods here and there where his passing has looked like it's improving. A month last season. A few months a couple of seasons ago. Each previous time it didn't last long and he dropped back to being not good enough.

Only time will tell whether this is another false dawn or whether this is the start of a consistent improvement. Hopefully it's the latter.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Yeah I can recognize he's improved while at the same time recognizing that it's been less than 5 games of good performances. Let's see where we are with Mctom after October.

 

[OrcaFat]

I’m not fletchers biggest fan, far from it….he’s massively overrated and people say that if he’d been fit for the 09 CL final….well nothing would be different. Barca were perhaps the greatest club side of all time. HOWEVER McT ? He’s not even close to Fletcher in terms of ability or performance.

Yeah, some people do overrate Fletcher. Probably they remember only his best period (which was bloody good) but even in his lesser periods he was still significantly better than McT.

 

[leon24]

Fact is, McT’s current form is keeping the Casemiro out of the team, and it’s a decision by ETH himself.

And it’s good because ETH is relaying the message the player’s form surpasses the player’s reputation.

 

[OrcaFat]

His passing has improved considerably and yet people talk about his passing like nothing has happened.

Feels like some players just can’t get in to heart of some fans no matter how they play or improve.

For me, the quality of his passing was not the main problem. It’s that he doesn’t make enough passes. That makes it sound like wanting passing for its own sake but it’s really about providing an option for his team mates, getting on the ball and not giving it away or getting dispossessed and that automatically leads to more passes.