[lawliet354]

Well, for one, I'm not sure why Busquets is being mentioned, as he's solely a defensive midfielder, and Alonso more a deep lying playmaker like Carrick.

But seeing as I was dragged into the comparison, between Busquets, who is the best off the ball player I've ever seen, and Alonso, the more complete midfielder of the two, then it's Alonso all day long, in my opinion.

What??? I'm just getting even more confused by this. I don't know how you can say Busquets is less of deep lying playmaker than Alonso or Carrick. Busquets is regarded as one of the best deep lying playmaker of the generation. Have you really ever watch 3 of them play?

Getting sidetracked here, I don't know why Mctominay thread ended up discussing players like Busquets, Alonso, or Carrick, he plays nothing like them. Don't have the passing ability, don't have the ability to read the game, what he offers is energy and physicality, and once in a while he's actually a goal threat

 

[Kaizane]

Make the same list with players from today then, I mean, what while watching Henderson and co makes you think you're watching more technical football?

I don't have to. Just watch a game from 10 years ago and today in real time and the note the overall difference.

 

[DomM]

not a good performance by Scott, the game seemed to pass him by. he isn't a skillful player who can control games, which is what we need for that position, and too often he loses the player he is meant to be marking.

 

[RooneyLegend]

I don't have to. Just watch a game from 10 years ago and today in real time and the note the overall difference.

The overall different is in speed, not technical quality. The difference is that teams are all over each other since Pep ushered in this pressing era. So you either play quickly or lose the ball which they do plenty of as well.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

I wonder whether other players are subject to the same scrutiny as McTominay.
Do the critics in this thread input to other threads, or do they prefer to focus on finding reasons to make negative posts here ?

What are you talking about? Fred gets made the scapegoat nearly every game, while McTominay somehow escapes a lot of criticism, especially in the media. Do you ever hear anyone in the media say anything bad about McTominay? I can't think of one instance. In fact when he is crap, the likes of Scholes and Keane go the other way and double down on defending him.

 

[Kaizane]

The overall different is in speed, not technical quality. The difference is that teams are all over each other since Pep ushered in this pressing era. So you either play quickly or lose the ball which they do plenty of as well.

Right, and how do you play quickly around a press to avoid losing the ball?

Clue: it's not by being technically shit.

Not sure why everyone is so offended by the fact that football moves on and changes, it's not some ground-breaking revelation. Lots more money pumped in and better coaching techniques from grass roots, will result in a lot more Bellingham's and a lot less Mctominay's.

Relax people, it's a good thing!

 

[El__Jingo]

some peoples opinions on here area baffling, carrick played in arguably the best united team we've had and theres people mentioning him in the same breath as Mc T ..

if youve actually watched united week in and out for years youd clearly see Clev was far more talented that Mc T was and even darren gibson.

gibson could pass the ball, ping it short or long and had a hell of a strike on him, wasnt at the quality needed for a midfielder in the team we had at the time but made a decent enough career before things went downhill.

Mctominay has no real attributes technically that get him into this united team , the likes of Garner and Levitt will surpass him just on passing capabilities alone. he doesnt play in midfield for his country because hes not good enough too over gilmour and McGinn. he plays CB because they musnt have anyone in that position because the fans were calling for his head in the last two internations ( he scored a winner maybe but he had one of the worst halfs ive ever seen against Israel )

i cant for the life of me understand where fans think he is a good fit for the club. hes a very limited footballer who will be playing at a much lower level in time.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Right, and how do you play quickly around a press to avoid losing the ball?

Clue: it's not by being technically shit.

Not sure why everyone is so offended by the fact that football moves on and changes, it's not some ground-breaking revelation. Lots more money pumped in and better coaching techniques from grass roots, will result in a lot more Bellingham's and a lot less Mctominay's.

Relax people, it's a good thing!

However they do lose the ball plenty of times due to the pressing, haven't you been watching? You cant just lump everyone together and say they are all better on the ball than in previous eras. Some are some aren't, its the nature of the beast. On average, compared to 10 years ago I'm not seeing an improvement.

coaches aren't going to make players have better control no matter how modern their techniques are. Yet Bellingham is no Paul Gascoigne, go figure. No one is saying its not a good thing, what you're being challenged on is whether players today more technically gifted than 10 years ago. Trust me, you ain't convincing anyone that Rice is better on the ball than Carrick.

 

[United in sin]

And thats my point hes not a regular in midfield for Scotland. He mainly plays CB for them.

He's shoehorned into the team despite not being that good. That's what playing regularly for united can do.

Because of Scotlands rubbish CBs.

McTominay is ahead of Gilmour in the pecking order, and McGinn plays further up the park for Scotland.

McTominay was dropped for Gilmour in midfield against England at the Euros. I think that said a lot about young Gilmours ability and less about Scotland's apparent lack of CB options. Gilmour is already the better option and he's just getting started

some peoples opinions on here area baffling, carrick played in arguably the best united team we've had and theres people mentioning him in the same breath as Mc T ..

if youve actually watched united week in and out for years youd clearly see Clev was far more talented that Mc T was and even darren gibson.

gibson could pass the ball, ping it short or long and had a hell of a strike on him, wasnt at the quality needed for a midfielder in the team we had at the time but made a decent enough career before things went downhill.

Mctominay has no real attributes technically that get him into this united team , the likes of Garner and Levitt will surpass him just on passing capabilities alone. he doesnt play in midfield for his country because hes not good enough too over gilmour and McGinn. he plays CB because they musnt have anyone in that position because the fans were calling for his head in the last two internations ( he scored a winner maybe but he had one of the worst halfs ive ever seen against Israel )

i cant for the life of me understand where fans think he is a good fit for the club. hes a very limited footballer who will be playing at a much lower level in time.

Great post. I've been saying this myself for a while. Cleverly and Gibson were both more gifted than McTominay, but they weren't anywhere close to being good enough for us under Fergie.

I don't know if Levitt or Gardner will make it here but they're both way better on the ball than McTominay and it's not even close.

 

[lex talionis]

A dire performance by McTominay, which I hope was caught on Ole's ipad. He's not a holding mid. Apart from trailing the play in the last third for a long distance shot there's not a whole lot McTominay offers the first team. I still like him as a squad man but we need to move on from the Mc part of McFred except in closing out matches after Matic tires.

 

[Craig Ward]

Currently the most frustrating utd player in the entire squad.

There's worse in the squad of course, but he regularly starts for us and it's starting to baffle me.

Hell of an engine, superb attitude and comes across as a nice lad. Reminds me of Brandon Williams, absolutely superb mentality - just not good enough to be in or even around our squad. I think the players attitude, commitment and mindset play a big part for ole - and while I agree that is important it cannot be the only reason a player features.

McTominey has so many flaws on and off the ball.

He's not good enough with the ball. His passing is laboured, slow, predictable. Always backwards or sidewards, rarely forward. Pointless him being on the ball

Off the ball - it's been well documented that he doesnt tend to look for the ball enough. This is so true. As a holding midfielder he's never looking to get in space. if an opposition player is near him he just stands there. No effort to get on the ball.

Off the ball point 2. Seeing as he's not a playmaker and actively avoids the ball, he's incapable of dictating play and influencing the game from deep, you'd logically think he must be an elite level at breaking up play, being the "destroyer". He's not. Positionally suspect, he's more of a reactor than being in the right place. problem with being a reactor is your often too late to prevent a problem

I've always said, central midfield is our weak spot. All this talk of a RW fixing us was nonsense. We lose games through midfield. Our midfield flaws allow too much pressure on us as a team. Whatever combo we play, we never have control of the midfield battle. Never.

McTom is the worst option we have at DM/CM and something's got to change

 

[Kaizane]

However they do lose the ball plenty of times due to the pressing, haven't you been watching? You cant just lump everyone together and say they are all better on the ball than in previous eras. Some are some aren't, its the nature of the beast. On average, compared to 10 years ago I'm not seeing an improvement.
coaches aren't going to make players have better control no matter how modern their techniques are. Yet Bellingham is no Paul Gascoigne, go figure. No one is saying its not a good thing, what you're being challenged on is whether players today more technically gifted than 10 years ago. Trust me, you ain't convincing anyone that Rice is better on the ball than Carrick.

The faculty of comprehension belonging to some people on here is seriously concerning.

Of course they're going to lose the ball sometimes, did they never lose it back then? Players aren't infallible androids capable of performing a trillion calculations per second in order to determine the most efficient route out of a press 100% of the time.

Of course 100% of players today are not better technically than 100% of players from 10 years ago, so comparing Rice to Carrick is just desperate. Having said that, MORE players today are better technically than they were 10 years ago, therefore, the overall game has naturally evolved into a more technical, quicker one. If that's not the case, then there is a serious issue at grass roots level, but it's not is it, because compare the England team today for example, than that of 10 years ago. Yes, there were some exceptional "technically gifted" individuals in that team, but they were just that, EXCEPTIONS, owing to their "gift". OVERALL, the current England team today as a game playing unit, not individually, is better technically, or is that wrong? In fact, someone mentioned Jordan Henderson. He still plays today from 10 years ago, how about you compare him from when he was at Sunderland to now, and tell me the difference you see in his game between then and now. If you can't see it then I'm afraid there's nothing I can do for you.

Look, I loved Carrick as much as the next man, but he wasn't the type of player who would beat his man with a deft bit of ball manipulation and turn on a sixpence in tight spaces, that wasn't his game, nor did it need to be back then. His intelligence meant he was always in space and his passing ability meant he made the ball do all the work. Now, in today's game, due to the speed and pressing elements of it, there are far more scenarios requiring more technical facets in your locker than being able to influence the game with passing alone, so I stick by what I said in that he wouldn't be as effective as he was if he played today, but still a great player.

Not once did I compare McTominay to Carrick. The point was McTominay would be better suited to football of a time bygone and Carrick would still be a hell of a player, though slightly less suited to the game today, doesn't mean he was any less of a great footballer for his era, it just means the game has moved on. Same could be said for Scholes, by the time he came to retire, the game was just that bit too quick for him, still a world class player during his time.

People just saw me mentioning McT and Carrick in the same sentence and thought I was comparing, I really wish people would actually process what they're reading before feeling compelled to reply.

 

[elmo]

The faculty of comprehension belonging to some people on here is seriously concerning.

Of course they're going to lose the ball sometimes, did they never lose it back then? Players aren't infallible androids capable of performing a trillion calculations per second in order to determine the most efficient route out of a press 100% of the time.

Of course 100% of players today are not better technically than 100% of players from 10 years ago, so comparing Rice to Carrick is just desperate. Having said that, MORE players today are better technically than they were 10 years ago, therefore, the overall game has naturally evolved into a more technical, quicker one. If that's not the case, then there is a serious issue at grass roots level, but it's not is it, because compare the England team today for example, than that of 10 years ago. Yes, there were some exceptional "technically gifted" individuals in that team, but they were just that, EXCEPTIONS, owing to their "gift". OVERALL, the current England team today as a game playing unit, not individually, is better technically, or is that wrong? In fact, someone mentioned Jordan Henderson. He still plays today from 10 years ago, how about you compare him from when he was at Sunderland to now, and tell me the difference you see in his game between then and now. If you can't see it then I'm afraid there's nothing I can do for you.

Look, I loved Carrick as much as the next man, but he wasn't the type of player who would beat his man with a deft bit of ball manipulation and turn on a sixpence in tight spaces, that wasn't his game, nor did it need to be back then. His intelligence meant he was always in space and his passing ability meant he made the ball do all the work. Now, in today's game, due to the speed and pressing elements of it, there are far more scenarios requiring more technical facets in your locker than being able to influence the game with passing alone, so I stick by what I said in that he wouldn't be as effective as he was if he played today, but still a great player.

Not once did I compare McTominay to Carrick. The point was McTominay would be better suited to football of a time bygone and Carrick would still be a hell of a player, though slightly less suited to the game today, doesn't mean he was any less of a great footballer for his era, it just means the game has moved on. Same could be said for Scholes, by the time he came to retire, the game was just that bit too quick for him, still a world class player during his time.

People just saw me mentioning McT and Carrick in the same sentence and thought I was comparing, I really wish people would actually process what they're reading before feeling compelled to reply.

You type a lot of shit just to say that Carrick would be rubbish against the press and you wonder why people get confused.

Just get to your point and stop blabbering with vague statements.

 

[Kaizane]

You type a lot of shit just to say that Carrick would be rubbish against the press and you wonder why people get confused.

Just get to your point and stop blabbering with vague statements.

My initial post was two lines long, if people would digest what they're reading, I wouldn't have to.

You're on a forum where people post words that you have to read, if you want everything in layman's terms, go read the Daily Mail sports column instead.

 

[elmo]

My initial post was two lines long, if people would digest what they're reading, I wouldn't have to.

You're on a forum where people post words that you have to read, if you want everything in layman's terms, go read the Daily Mail sports column instead.

Your initial post included shit like players were less technical 10 years ago and followed up with Carrick wouldn't be as successful if he played now.

It's no wonder everybody took you as saying Carrick was less technical than most midfielders currently playing.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

He hides, and it's either he doesn't know where to go or his instructed to do so.

 

[Zoo]

He hides, and it's either he doesn't know where to go or his instructed to do so.

Deserves a thread of it's own.

 

[Stack]

He hides, and it's either he doesn't know where to go or his instructed to do so.

I watched that and amusingly that guy perfectly illustrates a point I have made earlier. That guy in the video talks about the cover shadow. He simply doesnt actually understand when a player is dragging an opposition player to create a passing channel through and he doesnt understand the cues a player gives his own team mates as to what he is doing. Its a laughable video and sadly so many on here who have never actually played at a decent level or been coached at a decent level will comprehend. A big hint you are being fooled in this video is the term cover shadow.
There are plenty of things to criticise McT for but this hiding thing is just nonsense parroted by a lot of people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and a great example of confirmation bias.
He hasnt once used any footage in this video, just graphic representation. He doesnt once show McT body shape relative to the ball carrier or the opposition player because he simply has no idea what to look for. Actually a big chunk of those peddling this hiding thing wouldnt be able to spot when any player is moving to receive or drag a defender. Too many Playstation enthusiasts not enough actual players/coaches blathering on in here.

Do some research on how and when to off the ball create passing channels. Look for info on training drills called "check in/check out" .
This video is laughable. Sadly the easily fooled will lap it up simply because it fits what they want to believe.

As I said before, plenty to criticise McT for but this hiding thing is a red herring the gullible are gobbling up.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

I watched that and amusingly that guy perfectly illustrates a point I have made earlier. That guy in the video talks about the cover shadow. He simply doesnt actually understand when a player is dragging an opposition player to create a passing channel through and he doesnt understand the cues a player gives his own team mates as to what he is doing. Its a laughable video and sadly so many on here who have never actually played at a decent level or been coached at a decent level will comprehend. A big hint you are being fooled in this video is the term cover shadow.
There are plenty of things to criticise McT for but this hiding thing is just nonsense parroted by a lot of people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and a great example of confirmation bias.
He hasnt once used any footage in this video, just graphic representation. He doesnt once show McT body shape relative to the ball carrier or the opposition player because he simply has no idea what to look for. Actually a big chunk of those peddling this hiding thing wouldnt be able to spot when any player is moving to receive or drag a defender. Too many Playstation enthusiasts not enough actual players/coaches blathering on in here.

Do some research on how and when to off the ball create passing channels. Look for info on training drills called "check in/check out" .
This video is laughable. Sadly the easily fooled will lap it up simply because it fits what they want to believe.

As I said before, plenty to criticise McT for but this hiding thing is a red herring the gullible are gobbling up.

Oh yeah! red herring you say.. well why don't you do a video with images from games and counter what that other video shows, sure you can say this is a laughable video, but why not go for it and create a video showcasing what Mct does during build-up play.

 

[Stack]

Oh yeah! red herring you say.. well why don't you do a video with images from games and counter what that other video shows, sure you can say this is a laughable video, but why not go for it and create a video showcasing what Mct does during build-up play.

haha

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

haha

see you laughed..

 

[Roboc7]

I watched that and amusingly that guy perfectly illustrates a point I have made earlier. That guy in the video talks about the cover shadow. He simply doesnt actually understand when a player is dragging an opposition player to create a passing channel through and he doesnt understand the cues a player gives his own team mates as to what he is doing. Its a laughable video and sadly so many on here who have never actually played at a decent level or been coached at a decent level will comprehend. A big hint you are being fooled in this video is the term cover shadow.
There are plenty of things to criticise McT for but this hiding thing is just nonsense parroted by a lot of people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and a great example of confirmation bias.
He hasnt once used any footage in this video, just graphic representation. He doesnt once show McT body shape relative to the ball carrier or the opposition player because he simply has no idea what to look for. Actually a big chunk of those peddling this hiding thing wouldnt be able to spot when any player is moving to receive or drag a defender. Too many Playstation enthusiasts not enough actual players/coaches blathering on in here.

Do some research on how and when to off the ball create passing channels. Look for info on training drills called "check in/check out" .
This video is laughable. Sadly the easily fooled will lap it up simply because it fits what they want to believe.

As I said before, plenty to criticise McT for but this hiding thing is a red herring the gullible are gobbling up.

It’s pretty clear Mctominay’s positioning is very poor, trying to make out its deliberate is just a bit silly really.

The reality is he’s not a midfielder just someone being shoehorned in, he has attributes that if he was part of a very detailed system and given a defined, limited role he maybe could be very effective.

However we are doing the complete opposite to that which is why he often looks like what he is, someone who doesn’t know how to play that position because he only recently started playing there.

On and off the ball he struggles to know what he should be doing, Ole obviously whines he can learn but it’s a big ask and even if it’s possible may take a long time.

 

[Stack]

It’s pretty clear Mctominay’s positioning is very poor, trying to make out its deliberate is just a bit silly really.

The reality is he’s not a midfielder just someone being shoehorned in, he has attributes that if he was part of a very detailed system and given a defined, limited role he maybe could be very effective.

However we are doing the complete opposite to that which is why he often looks like what he is, someone who doesn’t know how to play that position because he only recently started playing there.

On and off the ball he struggles to know what he should be doing, Ole obviously whines he can learn but it’s a big ask and even if it’s possible may take a long time.

I am not arguing his positioning isnt poor, Im arguing that this hiding thing is people not understanding whats happening with him. Ive watched him specifically for that that, he isnt hiding.
His positioning is a problem, he gets too deep if defending and crowds his own defenders, he doesnt occupy or engage opposition midfielders when we are in possession and makes it harder for Bruno to find clear space. Defensively he is often too square on to his man and so gets turned frequently (something Pogba is really really bad at if anyone needs to see an example of really bad body shape when defending).
This hiding thing is a thing that is being parroted about and its a nonsense and a red herring. people are being fooled by this. Confirmation bias is meaning people are imagining he is hiding. I saw it in the match threads, I saw people claim he was hiding when he was very very clearly creating a passing channel to our forward players.
Criticise what he is doing wrong for sure but this hiding thing is absolute bollocks.

 

[Roboc7]

I am not arguing his positioning isnt poor, Im arguing that this hiding thing is people not understanding whats happening with him. Ive watched him specifically for that that, he isnt hiding.
His positioning is a problem, he gets too deep if defending and crowds his own defenders, he doesnt occupy or engage opposition midfielders when we are in possession and makes it harder for Bruno to find clear space. Defensively he is often too square on to his man and so gets turned frequently (something Pogba is really really bad at if anyone needs to see an example of really bad body shape when defending).
This hiding thing is a thing that is being parroted about and its a nonsense and a red herring. people are being fooled by this. Confirmation bias is meaning people are imagining he is hiding. I saw it in the match threads, I saw people claim he was hiding when he was very very clearly creating a passing channel to our forward players.
Criticise what he is doing wrong for sure but this hiding thing is absolute bollocks.

It shouldn’t be referred to as hiding and I don’t think that video is really saying it’s deliberate, he just doesn’t know what else to do. It’s the same defensively he gets himself into poor positions. We’ve got someone playing a role that highlights weaknesses and limits strengths.

 

[Augustus Gloop]

I watched that and amusingly that guy perfectly illustrates a point I have made earlier. That guy in the video talks about the cover shadow. He simply doesnt actually understand when a player is dragging an opposition player to create a passing channel through and he doesnt understand the cues a player gives his own team mates as to what he is doing. Its a laughable video and sadly so many on here who have never actually played at a decent level or been coached at a decent level will comprehend. A big hint you are being fooled in this video is the term cover shadow.
There are plenty of things to criticise McT for but this hiding thing is just nonsense parroted by a lot of people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and a great example of confirmation bias.
He hasnt once used any footage in this video, just graphic representation. He doesnt once show McT body shape relative to the ball carrier or the opposition player because he simply has no idea what to look for. Actually a big chunk of those peddling this hiding thing wouldnt be able to spot when any player is moving to receive or drag a defender. Too many Playstation enthusiasts not enough actual players/coaches blathering on in here.

Do some research on how and when to off the ball create passing channels. Look for info on training drills called "check in/check out" .
This video is laughable. Sadly the easily fooled will lap it up simply because it fits what they want to believe.

As I said before, plenty to criticise McT for but this hiding thing is a red herring the gullible are gobbling up.

This is a superb post. Appreciate the objectivity.

 

[Stack]

It shouldn’t be referred to as hiding and I don’t think that video is really saying it’s deliberate, he just doesn’t know what else to do. It’s the same defensively he gets himself into poor positions. We’ve got someone playing a role that highlights weaknesses and limits strengths.

Sorry we will have to agree to disagree on the hiding thing. I watched him specifically for this and what people claim is hiding is him moving to create a passing channel.
Here are the indicators, first one can be a short move in one direction then a longer move opposite, when he does this you will see that he may still be looking at his team mate with the ball but his body shape is not open to receive. If he does want the ball he is positioned so he can receive it to go forward. Sometimes he receives a ball and gives it straight bacck and then immediately moves laterally, he has just created a passing channel. If he is trying to create a passing channel he is usually staying in close contact with the opposition player even as he moves laterally.

I think this hiding thing has grown legs of its own and people are just jumping on a band wagon without having a clue, it fits what they want to believe. Its bollocks in my opinion. Too often our midfielders are in among our back 4, it creates chaos. We should be trusting and allowing our back 4 to do their job. How many times do we see balls being sent into our box and we have 6 or 7 of our players in a flat line. How many times do McT and Pogba get turned by the players they are engaging and end up having to chase after them. Those are the real problems.

 

[Roboc7]

Sorry we will have to agree to disagree on the hiding thing. I watched him specifically for this and what people claim is hiding is him moving to create a passing channel.
Here are the indicators, first one can be a short move in one direction then a longer move opposite, when he does this you will see that he may still be looking at his team mate with the ball but his body shape is not open to receive. If he does want the ball he is positioned so he can receive it to go forward. Sometimes he receives a ball and gives it straight bacck and then immediately moves laterally, he has just created a passing channel. If he is trying to create a passing channel he is usually staying in close contact with the opposition player even as he moves laterally.

I think this hiding thing has grown legs of its own and people are just jumping on a band wagon without having a clue, it fits what they want to believe. Its bollocks in my opinion. Too often our midfielders are in among our back 4, it creates chaos. We should be trusting and allowing our back 4 to do their job. How many times do we see balls being sent into our box and we have 6 or 7 of our players in a flat line. How many times do McT and Pogba get turned by the players they are engaging and end up having to chase after them. Those are the real problems.

No this isn’t a new thing it’s been an issue ever since he came into the team, he’s a midfielder that doesn’t touch the ball that often and biggest reason for that is he is often in a poor position.

One of the consequences of him being so poor is the ball has to get passed elsewhere, the idea he has been making decoy runs since he came into the team simply isn’t true.

 

[harms]

I am not arguing his positioning isnt poor, Im arguing that this hiding thing is people not understanding whats happening with him. Ive watched him specifically for that that, he isnt hiding.
His positioning is a problem, he gets too deep if defending and crowds his own defenders, he doesnt occupy or engage opposition midfielders when we are in possession and makes it harder for Bruno to find clear space. Defensively he is often too square on to his man and so gets turned frequently (something Pogba is really really bad at if anyone needs to see an example of really bad body shape when defending).
This hiding thing is a thing that is being parroted about and its a nonsense and a red herring. people are being fooled by this. Confirmation bias is meaning people are imagining he is hiding. I saw it in the match threads, I saw people claim he was hiding when he was very very clearly creating a passing channel to our forward players.
Criticise what he is doing wrong for sure but this hiding thing is absolute bollocks.

Sorry we will have to agree to disagree on the hiding thing. I watched him specifically for this and what people claim is hiding is him moving to create a passing channel.
Here are the indicators, first one can be a short move in one direction then a longer move opposite, when he does this you will see that he may still be looking at his team mate with the ball but his body shape is not open to receive. If he does want the ball he is positioned so he can receive it to go forward. Sometimes he receives a ball and gives it straight bacck and then immediately moves laterally, he has just created a passing channel. If he is trying to create a passing channel he is usually staying in close contact with the opposition player even as he moves laterally.

I think this hiding thing has grown legs of its own and people are just jumping on a band wagon without having a clue, it fits what they want to believe. Its bollocks in my opinion. Too often our midfielders are in among our back 4, it creates chaos. We should be trusting and allowing our back 4 to do their job. How many times do we see balls being sent into our box and we have 6 or 7 of our players in a flat line. How many times do McT and Pogba get turned by the players they are engaging and end up having to chase after them. Those are the real problems.

You'd think that he was Johan Cruyff going by this post, outsmarting the fans and the opposition by creating new passing channels for others by eliminating himself from the game... except that we don't really use those channels that he supposedly creates and end up struggling under any kind of a coherent pressure.

The term hiding that got trending in here is certainly misleading as it implies his intent. He clearly doesn't want to hide from the ball — but his spatial awareness in the build-up is quite poor and he often limits our build up option by excluding himself from it (without "creating" another passing channel — be it to himself or to a player who is positioned further forward).

Even if he was creating passing channels (which he clearly tries to from time to time by the way, I'm not arguing that) — if it doesn't work consistently, you shouldn't do it. Especially since any pass that bypasses midfield is by definition a riskier one and starting out an attack with a long ball is not something that you want when you're playing the ball out of defense. Tifo's video is very much spot on and the burden of proof is on your here, not on them (or, at least, not only on them). He doesn't use any clips because it's a copyright issue by the way — they can argue as a fair use/criticism that but they'd have to appeal every bit that would get automatically blocked by YouTube's algorithm.

 

[Stack]

You'd think that he was Johan Cruyff going by this post, outsmarting the fans and the opposition by creating new passing channels for others by eliminating himself from the game... except that we don't really use those channels that he supposedly creates and end up struggling under any kind of a coherent pressure.

The term hiding that got trending in here is certainly misleading as it implies his intent. He clearly doesn't want to hide from the ball — but his spatial awareness in the build-up is quite poor and he often limits our build up option by excluding himself from it (without "creating" another passing channel — be it to himself or to a player who is positioned further forward).

Even if he was creating passing channels (which he clearly tries to from time to time by the way, I'm not arguing that) — if it doesn't work consistently, you shouldn't do it. Especially since any pass that bypasses midfield is by definition a riskier one and starting out an attack with a long ball is not something that you want when you're playing the ball out of defense. Tifo's video is very much spot on and the burden of proof is on your here, not on them (or, at least, not only on them). He doesn't use any clips because it's a copyright issue by the way — they can argue as a fair use/criticism that but they'd have to appeal every bit that would get automatically blocked by YouTube's algorithm.

Good grief. I never made him out to be anything special and if you had half a brain you would have seen the clear criticism of him. Muppet. Just keep parroting the drivel, you are good at it.

 

[Stack]

I see there is a double standard applied here. Dont criticise the poster but the post. Fair enough but then I was responding to some mockery which is exactly the same thing. Get fecked whichever coward mod deleted my response

 

[lost7]

I see there is a double standard applied here. Dont criticise the poster but the post. Fair enough but then I was responding to some mockery which is exactly the same thing. Get fecked whichever coward mod deleted my response

Take a deep breath, it's not that serious mate. Some of you get worked up over absolutely nothing...

 

[Adam-Utd]

I am not arguing his positioning isnt poor, Im arguing that this hiding thing is people not understanding whats happening with him. Ive watched him specifically for that that, he isnt hiding.
His positioning is a problem, he gets too deep if defending and crowds his own defenders, he doesnt occupy or engage opposition midfielders when we are in possession and makes it harder for Bruno to find clear space. Defensively he is often too square on to his man and so gets turned frequently (something Pogba is really really bad at if anyone needs to see an example of really bad body shape when defending).
This hiding thing is a thing that is being parroted about and its a nonsense and a red herring. people are being fooled by this. Confirmation bias is meaning people are imagining he is hiding. I saw it in the match threads, I saw people claim he was hiding when he was very very clearly creating a passing channel to our forward players.
Criticise what he is doing wrong for sure but this hiding thing is absolute bollocks.

The issue with that is our centre backs can't get the ball out of defence, so we end up long balling it into the channels.

IF this was some pre determined move to find the strikers feet then fair enough, but often it isn't. I don't think that is what Mctominay is actually doing at all, he just doesn't know how to position himself correctly to receive the ball or escape a press.

There's a reason he touches the ball a lot less than most other midfielders, and that isn't because he's some sort of distractive genius.

 

[MadDogg]

Sorry we will have to agree to disagree on the hiding thing. I watched him specifically for this and what people claim is hiding is him moving to create a passing channel.
Here are the indicators, first one can be a short move in one direction then a longer move opposite, when he does this you will see that he may still be looking at his team mate with the ball but his body shape is not open to receive. If he does want the ball he is positioned so he can receive it to go forward. Sometimes he receives a ball and gives it straight bacck and then immediately moves laterally, he has just created a passing channel. If he is trying to create a passing channel he is usually staying in close contact with the opposition player even as he moves laterally.

I think this hiding thing has grown legs of its own and people are just jumping on a band wagon without having a clue, it fits what they want to believe. Its bollocks in my opinion. Too often our midfielders are in among our back 4, it creates chaos. We should be trusting and allowing our back 4 to do their job. How many times do we see balls being sent into our box and we have 6 or 7 of our players in a flat line. How many times do McT and Pogba get turned by the players they are engaging and end up having to chase after them. Those are the real problems.

'Hiding' might be too strong of a word as I don't know if he's doing it deliberately, but the end result is the same. So many times he is simply impossible to pass to because he has positioned himself behind opposition players, or even runs directly away from being the main passing option.

There was one example towards the end of last season that was so bad I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Shaw had the ball on the left, McTominay was slowly jogging behind an opposition player that was between him and Shaw. Shaw passed it back to Maguire, McTominay continued to slowly jog behind the opposition player as they moved across the field. Maguire passed it to Lindelof, the opposition player started moving faster across the field while McTominay increased his speed to remain behind him. Lindelof passed it to AWB, at this point the opposition player changed his run to cover a different space and McTominay instantly moved in behind a second opposition player instead. A good 10-20 seconds of play, the ball being passed between four different players across the width of the field, and Scott spent literally the entire move impossible to pass to. Every single one of those defenders were looking to pass it forward, and we had one of our midfielders (the position most responsible for creating those options) making himself unavailable.

You seem to be saying that he's making runs to drag opposition players away to create better passing options to a different Utd player. But far too often he's not actually making any runs or movements which makes it incredible easy for the opposition to cover passing angles.

 

[Glorio]

Or Rodri whose style is very similar to Carrick and even Pep compared them both with Busquests, you won't find anyone doing the same with Scott.

Of course you can! 50M rated Longstaff

 

[roonster09]

It's not a matter of athleticism, there are many great footballers who aren't athletic.

I agree, Carrick would've been fine and far from rubbish today, just not a world beater. He was a big reason for our past successes, but he was not a great ball playing footballer, which he got away with back then. He had abundant game intelligence and a brilliant range of passing; streets ahead of Mctominay, but still not enough to be considered great in today's game. No point in comparing Jorghino as he's far technically superior than Carrick ever was and better suited for today's high intensity game.

People who are saying Mctominay is rubbish, he's not - he's just not great.

Carrick would have been rated even higher if he played now.

 

[Siorac]

Carrick would have been rated even higher if he played now.

I'm not sure actually. He was an excellent long range passer and a highly intelligent player with brilliant positional sense but he wasn't at his best in tight spaces and could struggle against a coordinated press - he was very poor in both finals against Barcelona, for example.

He could still be excellent, particularly if you put a Kante next to him. But I think he'd have problems against pressing teams, unless the system specifically compensates for his weaknesses.

 

[SoCross]

McT will be good in a 3 man midfield. If you recall, we had some wonderful games in the past with a Carrick-Fletch-Ando trio. The tempo setting sitter-the harrier-the box to box.

McT is ok for the Anderson role of box-to-box but his is limitations are clearer in a two-man midfield. If anything, with our current limitations in midfield, Ole needs to play 3 in there. But then Bruno needs to be told to curb his offensive game just a bit.

 

[roonster09]

I'm not sure actually. He was an excellent long range passer and a highly intelligent player with brilliant positional sense but he wasn't at his best in tight spaces and could struggle against a coordinated press - he was very poor in both finals against Barcelona, for example.

He could still be excellent, particularly if you put a Kante next to him. But I think he'd have problems against pressing teams, unless the system specifically compensates for his weaknesses.

There are very very few CMs who played well against Barca, you can't judge him on those 2 games.

 

[Foxbatt]

He doesn't understand space. Lots of people have noticed that and commented. It's not that he is refusing to be passed the ball. He doesn't get into those spaces easily. Passing space is created and is not automatic. With Scott, he still seems uncomfortable playing in the role he has been asked to play.
What is his job in the side? It doesn't help him that he plays in defense for Scotland.

 

[Swedish_Plumber]

I hate his habit of putting his body between the ball and tackler rather than take the passing option. Just makes himself susceptible to losing it more often. And it’s also just typical of our players taking more time on the ball than needed.