[Bebestation]

Fletcher and Cleverley looked better due to who their partners were in Carrick and Scholes or even Anderson during his game’s career Arsenal.

Mctominay is being played this much because we simply don’t have a Carrick or Scholes type midfielder in our squad - therefore Mctominay is playing more than he should and looking like our main midfielder when he should be far far from that.

If Mctominay played in the squad in relation to players like Carrick, Scholes, Keane or even De Jong - then the complaining about him would be less because well - he would play less.

 

[Carl]

The comparisons to Fletcher are so tiresome at this point. Never mind baseless.

Nice one.

 

[JPRouve]

The comparisons to Fletcher are so tiresome at this point. Never mind baseless.

And it doesn't help McTominay because it puts him in an unfavorable position. I have been critical of the way he plays and don't have much faith in his ability to develop but that's based on the probability of it happening. It doesn't mean that he is totally useless or that there is no hope, some players developed late in particular the ones that found a role late. In the case of United I think that many of our players have been "betrayed" by our managers who didn't bother create a structure that fitted players, they didn't bother create roles for them between Mourinho, Ole and Rangnick things have been extremely generic.

 

[EtH]

And it doesn't help McTominay because it puts him in an unfavorable position. I have been critical of the way he plays and don't have much faith in his ability to develop but that's based on the probability of it happening. It doesn't mean that he is totally useless or that there is no hope, some players developed late in particular the ones that found a role late. In the case of United I think that many of our players have been "betrayed" by our managers who didn't bother create a structure that fitted players, they didn't bother create roles for them between Mourinho, Ole and Rangnick things have been extremely generic.

Yes but even the inconsistent Fletcher of 04-05 which people complained about no end was a much better player than I suspect McTominay will ever be. It’s just apples and oranges in terms of quality. The only real comparison is that they are both Scottish as I’m not even sure McTominay is cut out for midfield and really have no clue what his best position would be. The next Fellaini perhaps ? Super sub destroyer striker extraordinaire ?

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Fletcher and Cleverley looked better due to who their partners were in Carrick and Scholes or even Anderson during his game’s career Arsenal.

Mctominay is being played this much because we simply don’t have a Carrick or Scholes type midfielder in our squad - therefore Mctominay is playing more than he should and looking like our main midfielder when he should be far far from that.

If Mctominay played in the squad in relation to players like Carrick, Scholes, Keane or even De Jong - then the complaining about him would be less because well - he would play less.

Fletcher was much better at football than the others and still it’s arguable if he was ever good enough. The others like Clev and Gibson were crap and considered as such, Mctominay is also crap.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes but even the inconsistent Fletcher of 04-05 which people complained about no end was a much better player than I suspect McTominay will ever be. It’s just apples and oranges in terms of quality. The only real comparison is that they are both Scottish as I’m not even sure McTominay is cut out for midfield and really have no clue what his best position would be. The next Fellaini perhaps ? Super sub destroyer striker extraordinaire ?

I agree with you, though Fellaini was a superior player in every aspects.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Fletcher was much better at football than the others and still it’s arguable if he was ever good enough. The others like Clev and Gibson were crap and considered as such, Mctominay is also crap.

That's nonsense.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

That's nonsense.

The midfield was the clear obvious weakness in that side and him part of the reason, similar to Liverpool today. Largely got away with it based on how good the forwards and defenders were

 

[Kramer]

And it doesn't help McTominay because it puts him in an unfavorable position. I have been critical of the way he plays and don't have much faith in his ability to develop but that's based on the probability of it happening. It doesn't mean that he is totally useless or that there is no hope, some players developed late in particular the ones that found a role late. In the case of United I think that many of our players have been "betrayed" by our managers who didn't bother create a structure that fitted players, they didn't bother create roles for them between Mourinho, Ole and Rangnick things have been extremely generic.

Agree with your points.

But to be honest, comparisons with most midfielders would put Mctominay in an ‘unfavourable’ position.

 

[EtH]

I agree with you, though Fellaini was a superior player in every aspects.

Sadly I must agree with you there as well.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

The midfield was the clear obvious weakness in that side and him part of the reason, similar to Liverpool today. Largely got away with it based on how good the forwards and defenders were

Our midfield when we won the CL in '08 and reached the final in '09 was one of the best in Europe. We had the most consecutive clean sheets in PL history thanks to an incredible back four/GK but also a brilliant midfield. Fletcher was a very good player for us and he would've had a much better career if he didn't have a horrible illness. It's a miracle he made it back from that and was able to go on and have a good career at Stoke and West Brom.

 

[Eplel]

Let's get something clear.

McT is not, will never be, and never had the potential to be on Fletcher's level. Not even 1/5th of Fletcher's level.

Fletcher was phenomenal from 2006 till he was hit by illness.

 

[JeffFromHK]

26 in December

we love underestimate the age of our academy products (Lingard, Pereira, McTominay), just like mums love to treat their grown adult children as kids

 

[JeffFromHK]

Let's get something clear.

McT is not, will never be, and never had the potential to be on Fletcher's level. Not even 1/5th of Fletcher's level.

Fletcher was phenomenal from 2006 till he was hit by illness.

Fletcher was PL's best XI in season 09-10, i.e. best 2-3 midfielders out of all PL midfielders.

McTominay has never been in the top 50th percentile of PL midfielders in his career. If there are 80 regular PL midfielders, he has never been even top 40.

 

[Rozay]

Fletcher was PL's best XI in season 09-10, i.e. best 2-3 midfielders out of all PL midfielders.

McTominay has never been in the top 50th percentile of PL midfielders in his career. If there are 80 regular PL midfielders, he has never been even top 40.

According to many on here he has been exactly that. In fact, there were times where he was seen as one of the best midfielders in the PL, worth 80m and many poster’s ‘favourite player’ and one of the top 10 academy graduates to ever come from our youth system. So opinions do vary.

 

[Trex]

Well for a manager who loves possession and technical footballers I don't see Mctominay favoured under ETH like he did under Ole and Rangnick.
The idea would be to control the game not use to the midfielders as workhorses to free up the forwards like Ole did.
I see him fading out, Garner who is more technical has a better chance in my opinion.

 

[JPRouve]

According to many on here he has been exactly that. In fact, there were times where he was seen as one of the best midfielders in the PL, worth 80m and many poster’s ‘favourite player’ and one of the top 10 academy graduates to ever come from our youth system. So opinions do vary.

Stop lying, you hater.

No one rates him that highly, some liars pretended to in order to have a pop at Pogba or Fred but you know what they were doing.

 

[Rozay]

Stop lying, you hater.

No one rates him that highly, some liars pretended to in order to have a pop at Pogba or Fred but you know what they were doing.

There was definitely a time. All of those things were said, and not by one person.

 

[Cassidy]

There was definitely a time. All of those things were said, and not by one person.

They all have something in common though I bet

 

[MadDogg]

According to many on here he has been exactly that. In fact, there were times where he was seen as one of the best midfielders in the PL, worth 80m and many poster’s ‘favourite player’ and one of the top 10 academy graduates to ever come from our youth system. So opinions do vary.

What? When?

A few years ago people hoped he could develop into a good player, and there's always the occasional weirdo who thinks some random player is gods gift, but there's certainly never been a time where 'many' people thought he was one of the best midfielders in the PL.

 

[Rozay]

What? When?

A few years ago people hoped he could develop into a good player, and there's always the occasional weirdo who thinks some random player is gods gift, but there's certainly never been a time where 'many' people thought he was one of the best midfielders in the PL.

There really was. I’m not much into post digging because I think it’s in poor taste, but I probably have the most amount of posts in each of Scott’s performance threads since he’s been in the team and it has been me generally arguing this exact same point that I am arguing now, so I’m quite versed in the subject.

 

[MadDogg]

McT developed positively every season. It’s foolish not to see the importance of him to the team. He will partner FDJ by ETH. It’s obvious.

Has he? At what?

One of the biggest issues with McTominay is that he really hasn't developed at all. I don't think I could pick a single attribute that he has obviously improved from where he was a couple of seasons ago. When he was still 22/23 there was some hope that he might develop into a useful player, but he's still the exact same player and he's now almost 26. If anything I'd say he's gone backwards from where he was for the last few months of 18/19 and first few months of 19/20, which was the only time he's maintained a passable level.

 

[Stacks]

Stop lying, you hater.

No one rates him that highly, some liars pretended to in order to have a pop at Pogba or Fred but you know what they were doing.

There was definitely a time. All of those things were said, and not by one person.

What? When?

A few years ago people hoped he could develop into a good player, and there's always the occasional weirdo who thinks some random player is gods gift, but there's certainly never been a time where 'many' people thought he was one of the best midfielders in the PL.

all facts. After the Leeds game I had to cuss some dudes claiming his ceiling was Roy Keane. They were saying he could be better than Fletcher. I heard Gerrard's name mentioned. It was just......

 

[RuudTom83]

Squad player : YES

Regular starter : HELL NO

simples

 

[VP89]

Squad player : YES

Regular starter : HELL NO

simples

A fair summary. Hes not a bad player and provides squad use. But no way a regular starter for us.

 

[Rozay]

Squad player : YES

Regular starter : HELL NO

simples

To a degree. But you don’t get to pick and choose when ‘squad players’ play. Absences come at different times, and to me, unless you have some sort of generational talent ahead of you - you should be looking to challenge for a place. That is the bar. If you are not good enough to start in your own right, then you are not good enough to be at a club. And we have too many of such players in the name of them being ‘squad players’. Fans are still living in Fergie times when we had all the money and the other teams were far more rubbish than they are now. The sooner certain fans realise that ‘but they are squad players’ doesn’t cut it for the McTominay’s, James’, Williams’, Telles and any other player who cannot start 10 games in a row without it being a problem - the better.

Jota, Firmino, Mané, Salah and Diaz are not squad players. But only a maximum of 3 can play at once. That said, aside from Salah - they are all good enough to play for Liverpool. Smae with Van Dijk, Matip, Konate and Gomez. Van Dijk is a certainty, but this notion of having ‘squad level’ players who the idea is that they will never be good enough to play regularly there. Origi is that level, and has left as a result. Same as Minamino. If they filled their squad with that level of player they will be far inferior.

McTominay is not good enough to start for United. All of those above forwards are good enough to start for Liverpool. Scott should not be a Manchester United player.

 

[Gopher Brown]

Let's get something clear.

McT is not, will never be, and never had the potential to be on Fletcher's level. Not even 1/5th of Fletcher's level.

Fletcher was phenomenal from 2006 till he was hit by illness.

What does this even mean? Pointless metric, might as well just repeat you don't like McT.

 

[Eplel]

What does this even mean? Pointless metric, might as well just repeat you don't like McT.

It's not a metric, it's a figure of speech used to express how much better Fletcher is.

And yes, I don't like McT.

 

[The_Dark_Knight]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....t-McTominay-despite-Frenkie-Jong-arrival.html

As a Scotland fan, I hope this is true.

Truth is, no one really knows how good these players are. They haven’t really been coached in 3+ years, nor have they had a manager who was able to exert any authority.

Hopefully ETH is as much of an authority and as much of a control freak as SAF.

 

[JeffFromHK]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....t-McTominay-despite-Frenkie-Jong-arrival.html

As a Scotland fan, I hope this is true.

Truth is, no one really knows how good these players are. They haven’t really been coached in 3+ years, nor have they had a manager who was able to exert any authority.

Hopefully ETH is as much of an authority and as much of a control freak as SAF.

McTominay is limited by his own skill level.
In terms of PL players, His first touch is average, his passing is average, his technique is average, his spatial awareness is average, his shooting is slightly above average. his centre of gravity is too high and easily got dribbled past. his only strengths are physicality and pressing in opponent half.
He can be a decent squad player at best (like Fortune, Silvestre, O Shea, Phil Neville we had), but not further.

 

[The_Dark_Knight]

McTominay is limited by his own skill level.
In terms of PL players, His first touch is average, his passing is average, his technique is average, his spatial awareness is average, his shooting is slightly above average. his centre of gravity is too high and easily got dribbled past. his only strengths are physicality and pressing in opponent half.
He can be a decent squad player at best (like Fortune, Silvestre, O Shea, Phil Neville we had), but not further.

Name me one player outside Ronaldo who showed a modicum of skill last season, and for the previous few seasons, for that matter.

I reiterate it, this squad of players haven't been coached properly. They haven’t had a proper manager. Nor have they had a clear strategy. They haven’t had a leader who instilled any type of philosophy.

I love Ole dearly, but he had no right being Manchester United manager.

Di Maria joined United at the peak of his powers. He looked useless. Pogba joined at the peak of his career. He didn't lift a leg. Varane joined at a peak age. He currently looks lost.

There's a reason for that.

I'm sick of the back teeth of Manchester United fans having targets (McTominay, Maguire, etc).

Ever since SAF left we've had Moyes (he had, what, 6 matches?), Mourinho (the Toxic one), Van Gaal (an archetypal drunk Uncle) and then Rangnick (place holder). That's a decade worth of thin coaching.

My only hope now is that ETH can bring back what we had under SAF.

But you crack on. Keep telling me the weaknesses of our players (I do agree about spacial awareness, though).

 

[Keefy18]

Name me one player outside Ronaldo who showed a modicum of skill last season, and for the previous few seasons, for that matter.

I reiterate it, this squad of players haven't been coached properly. They haven’t had a proper manager. Nor have they had a clear strategy. They haven’t had a leader who instilled any type of philosophy.

I love Ole dearly, but he had no right being Manchester United manager.

Di Maria joined United at the peak of his powers. He looked useless. Pogba joined at the peak of his career. He didn't lift a leg. Varane joined at a peak age. He currently looks lost.

There's a reason for that.

I'm sick of the back teeth of Manchester United fans having targets (McTominay, Maguire, etc).

Ever since SAF left we've had Moyes (he had, what, 6 matches?), Mourinho (the Toxic one), Van Gaal (an archetypal drunk Uncle) and then Rangnick (place holder). That's a decade worth of thin coaching.

My only hope now is that ETH can bring back what we had under SAF.

But you crack on. Keep telling me the weaknesses of our players (I do agree about spacial awareness, though).

Meanwhile Jose sods off and makes Roma successful and LVG has Holland performing well again and in another World Cup and I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if they do very well either.

They might not have been ideal for our club but lets not pretend they are poor managers, they both are very knowledgeable managers, albeit not quite at the level they once were.

 

[The_Dark_Knight]

Meanwhile Jose sods off and makes Roma successful and LVG has Holland performing well again and in another World Cup and I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if they do very well either.

They might not have been ideal for our club but lets not pretend they are poor managers, they both are very knowledgeable managers, albeit not quite at the level they once were.

Granted.

We all know that Mourinho is a good manager, but he only joins clubs in order to receive his golden handshake around the 3 year mark. Plus, the biggest mistake that the board made was siding with Pogba and thinking him a bigger United commodity than Mourinho

Then we enter the Ole years:

You can see during Ole's tenure that the players weren't being trained at a high standard. There was no patterns of play, no direction. You could see quite clearly that there was no discipline behind the scenes, what with Bruno's constant moaning and Ronaldo acting like a child when he gets subbed off. And then there's the whole leaking thing with (allegedly) Lingard and the Pogba circus

Gearing up for the start to the season, I watched "Alex Ferguson: Never Give Up" and then "The United Way", back to back (have them both recorded on Virgin). None of the aforementioned would have happened under SAF's watch.

For too long the players have been allowed to rule the roost. What this club needs is a manager who thr players fear and respect in equal amounts, that's what happened under Matt Busby and it's certainly the case with Alex Ferguson.

Early signs are that ETH is cut from the sane cloth as the aforementioned two.

 

[Keefy18]

Granted.

We all know that Mourinho is a good manager, but he only joins clubs in order to receive his golden handshake around the 3 year mark. Plus, the biggest mistake that the board made was siding with Pogba and thinking him a bigger United commodity than Mourinho

Then we enter the Ole years:

You can see during Ole's tenure that the players weren't being trained at a high standard. There was no patterns of play, no direction. You could see quite clearly that there was no discipline behind the scenes, what with Bruno's constant moaning and Ronaldo acting like a child when he gets subbed off. And then there's the whole leaking thing with (allegedly) Lingard and the Pogba circus

Gearing up for the start to the season, I watched "Alex Ferguson: Never Give Up" and then "The United Way", back to back (have them both recorded on Virgin). None of the aforementioned would have happened under SAF's watch.

For too long the players have been allowed to rule the roost. What this club needs is a manager who thr players fear and respect in equal amounts, that's what happened under Matt Busby and it's certainly the case with Alex Ferguson.

Early signs are that ETH is cut from the sane cloth as the aforementioned two.

Literally not one word of the Jose tenure is relevant to the discussion.

Blaming coaching for Scotts inability to move out from behind opposition players to pick a pass up is on him and him alone. It's basic CM play at the lowest levels of the game right up to pro. Patterns of play are irrelevant in terms of that issue, Scott literally has to be spoon fed info throughout a game to move into position to receive a pass to turn and progress the play, the latter rarely if ever happens thanks to his near complete inability to learn positional play.

You've mentioned a whole bunch of other stuff which again isn't relevant to the topic eg the leaks and blaming Pogba and Lingard for some reason.

I don't believe Ole was a great coach by any means but there's only so much you can blame on coaches. Some attributes or players are not coachable, I mean the great Paul Scholes had SAF (Ironic you mention him) for his entire career, yet could never teach him to tackle. Another example is that we can watch a 29 year old Lukaku still unable to master the art of first touch with his back to goal.

 

[The_Dark_Knight]

Literally not one word of the Jose tenure is relevant to the discussion.

Blaming coaching for Scotts inability to move out from behind opposition players to pick a pass up is on him and him alone. It's basic CM play at the lowest levels of the game right up to pro. Patterns of play are irrelevant in terms of that issue, Scott literally has to be spoon fed info throughout a game to move into position to receive a pass to turn and progress the play, the latter rarely if ever happens thanks to his near complete inability to learn positional play.

You've mentioned a whole bunch of other stuff which again isn't relevant to the topic eg the leaks and blaming Pogba and Lingard for some reason.

I don't believe Ole was a great coach by any means but there's only so much you can blame on coaches. Some attributes or players are not coachable, I mean the great Paul Scholes had SAF (Ironic you mention him) for his entire career, yet could never teach him to tackle. Another example is that we can watch a 29 year old Lukaku still unable to master the art of first touch with his back to goal.

I didn't say it was. Jose was brilliant for Scott. As opposed to Ole. I can't name a single player who has progressed under the guidance of Ole.

Great. Are you one of these people who bring Roy Keane into these types of debates? Did you know that Roy Keane was a natural leader at 19 and he raised up his team mates and didn't need to be coached?

I disagree, Paul Scholes could tackle. He was in the Vinny Jones school of tackling.

The points stands, under Ole, for three years, we had one way of playing: counter attack football with zero ability to be able to construct moves, break down low blocks defense and I'm not even going to talk about the mass disorganisation.

I watched "The United Way" last night and heard how Ron Atkinson coached the team. Take out mass levels of alcohol and it's just the Ole way

 

[Kag]

What has Mourinho and Ole got to do with McTominay being shite?

 

[The_Dark_Knight]

What has Mourinho and Ole got to do with McTominay being shite?

Read my previous posts.

I'm not repeating myself.

If you want the abridged version: United squad have barely been coached for the better part of a decade. Every player who have come through the ranks have regressed. All the superstars (Di Maria, Pogba, Varane, etc) have looked lost after they join us.

I'm well aware that I'm the minority here, but I'm not going to throw any player under the bus. United have been a rudderless ship for 10 years.

I'm going to give ETH time to see what he can produce with thr current squad of players. I hope I'm not alone in that, at least.

 

[honirelandboy]

Read my previous posts.

I'm not repeating myself.

If you want the abridged version: United squad have barely been coached for the better part of a decade. Every player who have come through the ranks have regressed. All the superstars (Di Maria, Pogba, Varane, etc) have looked lost after they join us.

I'm well aware that I'm the minority here, but I'm not going to throw any player under the bus. United have been a rudderless ship for 10 years.

I'm going to give ETH time to see what he can produce with thr current squad of players. I hope I'm not alone in that, at least.

He’s absolutely shite, Irelands championship midfield destroyed him in their last international. There’s a reason why we are not battling for titles, let alone top four or trophies and one of the reasons is we have players like Scott Mctominay starting week in week out who are not good enough and never will be. He’s bottom 5 premier league quality at best but I reckon he’s a championship player. He’s absolutely shocking. I reckon Fred with a decent partner beside him could do wonders this year.

 

[Stacks]

Read my previous posts.

I'm not repeating myself.

If you want the abridged version: United squad have barely been coached for the better part of a decade. Every player who have come through the ranks have regressed. All the superstars (Di Maria, Pogba, Varane, etc) have looked lost after they join us.

I'm well aware that I'm the minority here, but I'm not going to throw any player under the bus. United have been a rudderless ship for 10 years.

I'm going to give ETH time to see what he can produce with thr current squad of players. I hope I'm not alone in that, at least.

 

[Kag]

Read my previous posts.

I'm not repeating myself.

If you want the abridged version: United squad have barely been coached for the better part of a decade. Every player who have come through the ranks have regressed. All the superstars (Di Maria, Pogba, Varane, etc) have looked lost after they join us.

I'm well aware that I'm the minority here, but I'm not going to throw any player under the bus. United have been a rudderless ship for 10 years.

I'm going to give ETH time to see what he can produce with thr current squad of players. I hope I'm not alone in that, at least.

That’s lovely, but McTominay actually is pretty shite. I don’t think this fact and the poor coaching that may have taken place over the years are linked.