Saka vs Foden vs Palmer

[adexkola]

Ok last bump thread.

Yesterday was the typical example of failing to have a decisive game when it truly matters for both of them. These are the kind of nights where you need to step up if you want to be among the greats

Aye, every player listed in the greats delivered in every high profile game they ever played in, by the time they were 24

 

[roonster09]

Ok last bump thread.

Yesterday was the typical example of failing to have a decisive game when it truly matters for both of them. These are the kind of nights where you need to step up if you want to be among the greats

Saka is 22, Foden is 23. How many greats were decisive in game of this magnitude all the time?

Also Foden has consistently delivered at highest level, Saka too but not many trophies to show for.

 

[Zed is not dead]

Well tonight was the kind of night where they had to deliver if they want to be considered more than just good PL players, which is what they are so far.
Foden has only started to have more impact during important games this season.

To me delivering consistently means being great against the odds, relieving your team in a high stake game when you didn’t think you could win it anymore.

They’re not big game players yet, and until they are, they fall into the same category as Ibrahimovic for instance. Consistent but tends to disappear when it actually truly matters

 

[roonster09]

Well tonight was the kind of night where they had to deliver if they want to be considered more than just good PL players, which is what they are so far.
Foden has only started to have more impact during important games this season.

To me delivering consistently means being great against the odds, relieving your team in a high stake game when you didn’t think you could win it anymore.

They’re not big game players yet, and until they are, they fall into the same category as Ibrahimovic for instance. Consistent but tends to disappear when it actually truly matters

This is football, you can't win every game and every trophy.

All the great players from past didn't win every single game or had impact in every big game. Bit of realistic expectations would help here.

 

[Zed is not dead]

This is football, you can't win every game and every trophy.

All the great players from past didn't win every single game or had impact in every big game. Bit of realistic expectations would help here.

You missed my point entirely.

Im saying you have to have at least « one of those nights » which Im sorry to say Ive never seen either of them have. It’s a realistic expectations when words like « generational talent » are being thrown around all the time

 

[roonster09]

You missed my point entirely.

Im saying you have to have at least « one of those nights » which Im sorry to say Ive never seen either of them have. It’s a realistic expectations when words like « generational talent » are being thrown around all the time

What one of those nights? Scoring Hattrick against your rivals in a derby doesn't count?

Scoring vs Madrid to bring them back into the tie doesn't count? He scored in semi finals first leg too couple of seasons ago.

Last season Saka scored vs ManUtd(2), Liverpool (2), City,
This season - Bayern, Liverpool.

Its not just his goals, his work rate and general play is very good and very consistent.

This rating of players based on one game is just illogical.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Well tonight was the kind of night where they had to deliver if they want to be considered more than just good PL players, which is what they are so far.
Foden has only started to have more impact during important games this season.

To me delivering consistently means being great against the odds, relieving your team in a high stake game when you didn’t think you could win it anymore.

They’re not big game players yet, and until they are, they fall into the same category as Ibrahimovic for instance. Consistent but tends to disappear when it actually truly matters

What players are consistent and show up 'when it actually matters'?

 

[adexkola]

I think Palmer has a legitimate claim to being a starting XI for England

And you simply tell Saka and Foden to duke it out

Southgate gets a lot of underserved flack, but he doesn't have the tactical guile to appreciate Palmer (and I'm not talking about his goals)

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Am I the only one who thinks Foden is too one footed? I've never heard a pundit mention it before and yet it seems like such a huge flaw in his game. I don't see how you can call a player the best in the league when they're seemingly petrified of using their weaker foot.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Am I the only one who thinks Foden is too one footed? I've never heard a pundit mention it before and yet it seems like such a huge flaw in his game. I don't see how you can call a player the best in the league when they're seemingly petrified of using their weaker foot.

Nah. He’s got a great right foot. He just utilises his left more (and it is far better). Much as Giggs did. Messi dribbles in a similar manner and is all left foot.

With that said, playing him wide left and asking him to cut in, massively limits his impact as he’s not on his favoured foot.

 

[Calidad]

Foden isn’t a wide player. He doesn’t have the tools. I’d argue the same for Palmer. They’re both best as 10’s, but suffice to say they can’t all play in that position, unless Bellingham drops back - which I’m sure is the answer either.

 

[Cassidy]

Foden isn’t a wide player. He doesn’t have the tools. I’d argue the same for Palmer. They’re both best as 10’s, but suffice to say they can’t all play in that position, unless Bellingham drops back - which I’m sure is the answer either.

Bellingham should absolutely drop back, he has never been a 10

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Nah. He’s got a great right foot. He just utilises his left more (and it is far better). Much as Giggs did. Messi dribbles in a similar manner and is all left foot.

With that said, playing him wide left and asking him to cut in, massively limits his impact as he’s not on his favoured foot.

Does anyone know if there's a site that breaks down a player's touch by foot? I might be wrong, but I reckon I've seen him use his right foot less than 10 times in the entire tournament. It's borderline Antony levels of one-footedness.

Anyway, I do agree that playing him on the left is a square peg in a round hole. I wouldn't be against dropping Saka and putting Foden on the right. Although I'd prefer to drop them both and bring in and Palmer and Gordon.

 

[The_Midfielder]

How stupid can Southgate be ..
Taken Foden, palmer, Bowen and saka all left footers
Surely 1 from this list had to be either Jack Grealish or Rashford ..

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Does anyone know if there's a site that breaks down a player's touch by foot? I might be wrong, but I reckon I've seen him use his right foot less than 10 times in the entire tournament. It's borderline Antony levels of one-footedness.

Anyway, I do agree that playing him on the left is a square peg in a round hole. I wouldn't be against dropping Saka and putting Foden on the right. Although I'd prefer to drop them both and bring in and Palmer and Gordon.

There’s loads of videos of him being filthy in rondos or on his own with a ball against a wall. His first touch with his right is peachy. Scores with it and assists too.

But he’s one of those players that forever moves and manipulates it with his left when dribbling. Much like Giggs. Hence the comparison.

It’s especially glaring when there’s no overlapping left back.

Basically, his right foot isn’t a problem until a system shows it. That Ruud vs Fulham video has just done the rounds again. He goes from halfway line to back if the net with about 20 right foot touches as he goes past 5 players. It’s not a real problem.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Saka and Palmer are miles ahead of Foden with the latter being the oldest of the trio.

One of the main differences is Saka and Palmer are able to grab the game by the scruff of the neck when the chips are down and the team needs someone to step up. Foden is also the only one who has never done it for his country.

 

[noodlehair]

Saka and Palmer are miles ahead of Foden with the latter being the oldest of the trio.

One of the main differences is Saka and Palmer are able to grab the game by the scruff of the neck when the chips are down and the team needs someone to step up. Foden is also the only one who has never done it for his country.

I think they are both just better players. Foden suits Pep's coaching style better but he's had all the flair drained out of him as a result.

Palmer and Saka have that individuality that all the best players have. Although until one of them actually wins anything it's kind of irrelevant. Particularly with Palmer as Saka at least stands out in a team that is good enough to challenge for trophies.

Chelsea have been a shambles most of the time Palmer has stood out there and even though they're far better now aren't exactly tearing up trees.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

I think they are both just better players. Foden suits Pep's coaching style better but he's had all the flair drained out of him as a result.

Palmer and Saka have that individuality that all the best players have. Although until one of them actually wins anything it's kind of irrelevant. Particularly with Palmer as Saka at least stands out in a team that is good enough to challenge for trophies.

Chelsea have been a shambles most of the time Palmer has stood out there and even though they're far better now aren't exactly tearing up trees.

I agree with everything you said asides from the bolded part. Would you say everything Harry Kane has done in his career so far is irrelevant? Or what about everything Shearer did for Newcastle when comparing him to other strikers at the time?

Also, I assume Saka was in that FA Cup winning team of 2020.

 

[noodlehair]

I agree with everything you said asides from the bolded part. Would you say everything Harry Kane has done in his career so far is irrelevant? Or what about everything Shearer did for Newcastle when comparing him to other strikers at the time?

Also, I assume Saka was in that FA Cup winning team of 2020.

I genuinely think there is a question mark over Kane. He scores a lot of goals but the teams he plays for don't reap the benefit they should from it, and at Spurs I think he eventually made them worse because they were more interested in catering to him than improving as a team. Maybe would have been different if he'd signed for city but we'll never find out now.

Shearer is a more difficult one because I think it's just a bit more obvious if you stuck him in the United side at the time for example, he'd have won trophies and probably made them even better, but the fact he didn't is still an argument against him.

Probably irrelevant is too harsh a word. Although Palmer I think is behind Saka because of the times in the past we've seen plays excell for average teams and then struggle when put into a good team. Saka is excelling in a good team.

If Arsenal lost him they'd struggle badly to replace him. If City lost Foden they'd just play someone else. We're getting a pretty good idea atm who their key players actually are. If Chelsea lost Palmer they'd struggle but it's not been long enough and they aren't good enough yet to know exactly how much or in what context.

Fair point on the FA cup if he was part of thar run. Although I'm thinking more league titles and CLs.

 

[Kwabs]

Saka and Palmer are miles ahead of Foden with the latter being the oldest of the trio.

One of the main differences is Saka and Palmer are able to grab the game by the scruff of the neck when the chips are down and the team needs someone to step up. Foden is also the only one who has never done it for his country.

I don't think you can say any of them is miles ahead of any other one of them, they're all good players at a similar level in teams that require very different things of them.

I don't think you can say Palmer has 'done it for his country'. He's had an important moment here or there but he's hardly played for them. Going forward, it will be interesting to see how his England career goes as he gets a chance to start on a regular basis over several years.

I do think, however, that Saka has been a fairly consistent performer for England for some time, and I agree that Foden has been very poor overall for England, and that hurts his case.

Funnily enough, if you just look at individual and team accolades, it appears that Foden should be deemed by far the best. But that is mostly a function of the team he plays in, it would seem. Still, that aspect of it is heavily weighted in his favour.

 

[MrVolante]

I don't think you can say any of them is miles ahead of any other one of them, they're all good players at a similar level in teams that require very different things of them.

I don't think you can say Palmer has 'done it for his country'. He's had an important moment here or there but he's hardly played for them. Going forward, it will be interesting to see how his England career goes as he gets a chance to start on a regular basis over several years.

I do think, however, that Saka has been a fairly consistent performer for England for some time, and I agree that Foden has been very poor overall for England, and that hurts his case.

Saka is the most consistent out of all of them. He's also the least exciting on the ball and consistency is boring, so he will pretty much always get underestimated in these conversations. I think he's the best of the three overall, but Palmer has the obviously higher ceiling. Foden is a step behind both I think, he's a system player with a lovely left foot but he has no international record to speak of. Palmer has been around all of five minutes, mostly on the bench, and has already impacted the English NT more than Foden.

I also think Saka has just been better domestically anyway. Other than last season (By far Foden's peak) anyway. Much stronger league season this year so far. For England I actually think its incredibly obvious that Foden should be a squad player, Saka should pretty much always start on the right and Palmer should occupy the 10 slot or if Bellingham is in better form, be the first substitute we turn to.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

I don't think you can say any of them is miles ahead of any other one of them, they're all good players at a similar level in teams that require very different things of them.

I don't think you can say Palmer has 'done it for his country'. He's had an important moment here or there but he's hardly played for them. Going forward, it will be interesting to see how his England career goes as he gets a chance to start on a regular basis over several years.

I do think, however, that Saka has been a fairly consistent performer for England for some time, and I agree that Foden has been very poor overall for England, and that hurts his case.

Funnily enough, if you just look at individual and team accolades, it appears that Foden should be deemed by far the best. But that is mostly a function of the team he plays in, it would seem. Still, that aspect of it is heavily weighted in his favour.

The 'individual accolades' debate is a tiresome one as those awards are often little more than a popularity contest. Look up who won the 98/99 PFA Player of the Year award in the season we won the treble.

As you alluded to, the 'let's compare their team accolades' argument is flawed so I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring it up. It makes about as much sense as comparing Gerrard and Anderson's honours when discussing who was the better player.

I mentioned what they did at an international level because Palmer has still done more for England than Foden has managed despite the latter earning quadruple the number of caps.

 

[Kwabs]

The 'individual accolades' debate is a tiresome one as those awards are often little more than a popularity contest. Look up who won the 98/99 PFA Player of the Year award in the season we won the treble.

As you alluded to, the 'let's compare their team accolades' argument is flawed so I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring it up. It makes about as much sense as comparing Gerrard and Anderson's honours when discussing who was the better player.

I mentioned what they did at an international level because Palmer has still done more for England than Foden has managed despite the latter earning quadruple the number of caps.

The point I was making was this: say all of them retired today. And then say in 30 years time, someone looks up their accolades. It would seem on the surface that Foden was by far the best of the 3. And, contrary to your Anderson /Gerrard example, Foden has been deemed the best player in the league for one of his seasons (which Anderson never was, so that's a misunderstanding and exaggerated misrepresentation of what I'm saying).

Of course, they're not going to all retire today and of course Saka and Palmer have plenty of time to go on and achieve all these things themselves, perhaps with less stacked teams, which would make their achievements all the more impressive. And of course, we who can watch them play now can make our own judgments about who is the best without recourse to pelts on the wall, team or individual.

But my point is, at the moment, in the club game, posterity favours Foden. However, I would agree with some others in the thread (specifically peeps like @MrVolante) who have put Saka at the top for his consistency, Palmer second, with perhaps a higher ceiling than Saka going forward, and Foden third.

I think they're all of a similar level though, TBH.

 

[MrVolante]

The point I was making was this: say all of them retired today. And then say in 30 years time, someone looks up their accolades. It would seem on the surface that Foden was by far the best of the 3.

It wouldn't at all unless you judged them purely by team accolades which is by far the dumbest way to judge a player.

Foden has had one single 'great' season in the prem. He has done nothing for England. Saka and Palmer have both won England player of the year, Palmer has also had a great PL season (en route to a second) and Saka has numerous really great PL seasons.

If all retired today, Saka has had a better individual career than Foden. Forget trophies, one plays for City and the other Arsenal. The fair comparison is the NT where they face the same environment.

 

[Kwabs]

It wouldn't at all unless you judged them purely by team accolades which is by far the dumbest way to judge a player.

Foden has had one single 'great' season in the prem. He has done nothing for England. Saka and Palmer have both won England player of the year, Palmer has also had a great PL season (en route to a second) and Saka has numerous really great PL seasons.

If all retired today, Saka has had a better individual career than Foden. Forget trophies, one plays for City and the other Arsenal. The fair comparison is the NT where they face the same environment.

Everyone judges at least partly by team accolades though, so it's not really dumb, is it? Where is the all time great player who never won anything?

Again, you seem to be stumping a lot for Saka, which is fine (though odd, for a Spurs fan), but I don't think you can say there's some massive gap between him and Foden (or him and Palmer) because there just isn't. Saka has been much better for England but that's just one part of it. I stand by what I said and I even basically agree with you, so I'm not sure what the disconnect is here.

 

[lex talionis]

Palmer, quite comfortably, though I readily acknowledge Foden and Saka are great players and that Foden has lifted many trophies while Palmer hasn’t even been close to lifting one.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Palmer, quite comfortably, though I readily acknowledge Foden and Saka are great players and that Foden has lifted many trophies while Palmer hasn’t even been close to lifting one.

... because Pep was too stubborn to give Palmer the gametime he wanted during City's title winning seasons. Hence why he pushed to leave on a permanent transfer, and City (stupidly) agreed to sell their best academy talent in decades to another PL club.

 

[Gavinb33]

Pep has turned Foden into a robot every move he does is now pre determined by what Pep wants him to do, the others have more unpredictability which stands them out from Foden

 

[Kwabs]

... because Pep was too stubborn to give Palmer the gametime he wanted during City's title winning seasons. Hence why he pushed to leave on a permanent transfer, and City (stupidly) agreed to sell their best academy talent in decades to another PL club.

I mean, maybe he just didn't think Palmer was good enough to start in his Manchester City team that has won everything under the sun in the past 7 years? Maybe it was as simple as that?

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

I mean, maybe he just didn't think Palmer was good enough to start in his Manchester City team that has won everything under the sun in the past 7 years? Maybe it was as simple as that?

Well that says a lot about his eye for spotting young talent at his disposal and ability to nurture academy players.

 

[Pickle85]

I mean, maybe he just didn't think Palmer was good enough to start in his Manchester City team that has won everything under the sun in the past 7 years? Maybe it was as simple as that?

Looks like he was wrong then.

 

[Kwabs]

Looks like he was wrong then.

He clearly wasn't wrong because he won a fourpeat, with a treble thrown in for good measure. So whoever he was choosing over Palmer for whatever system he wanted to play was getting the job done just fine.

 

[Pickle85]

He clearly wasn't wrong because he won a fourpeat, with a treble thrown in for good measure. So whoever he was choosing over Palmer for whatever system he wanted to play was getting the job done just fine.

Why don't you go find a guardiola/city/Barca forum mate, you'd clearly be much happier there

 

[Daydreamer]

Why don't you go find a guardiola/city/Barca forum mate, you'd clearly be much happier there

He does have a point, though.

 

[Pickle85]

He does have a point, though.

That Palmer doesn't get into that city team instantly? Maybe, but I'd argue that he's better than Foden abd could have taken his place, but that was never going to happen (understandably at the time). Regardless, Pep installs so little faith in young players that they may eventually get a chance that they feel the need to go elsewhere anyway. And looking at his record in bringing youngsters through at city, you can't really blame them

 

[Daydreamer]

That Palmer doesn't get into that city team instantly? Maybe, but I'd argue that he's better than Foden abd could have taken his place, but that was never going to happen (understandably at the time). Regardless, Pep installs so little faith in young players that they may eventually get a chance that they feel the need to go elsewhere anyway. And looking at his record in bringing youngsters through at city, you can't really blame them

I don’t think he’s better than Foden as I think his stats are somewhat padded by his (admittedly excellent) penalty taking. But for arguments sake, let say he is the better player. That doesn’t mean he was better than the available options leading up to the time of his departure. Palmer leaving City was a win-win-win, I think all parties can be happy.

I’m biased, but I prefer Saka. Foden can often looks to be a (brilliant) cog in a (ruthlessly efficient) machine. And Palmer can be a big fish in a small (but rapidly improving) pond.

Whereas Saka is both a great systems player and someone that can win a game virtually on his own.

 

[Pickle85]

I don’t think he’s better than Foden as I think his stats are somewhat padded by his (admittedly excellent) penalty taking. But for arguments sake, let say he is the better player. That doesn’t mean he was better than the available options leading up to the time of his departure. Palmer leaving City was a win-win-win, I think all parties can be happy.

I’m biased, but I prefer Saka. Foden can often looks to be a (brilliant) cog in a (ruthlessly efficient) machine. And Palmer can be a big fish in a small (but rapidly improving) pond.

Whereas Saka is both a great systems player and someone that can win a game virtually on his own.

Do you really think that city are happy they sold Palmer? Because I certainly don't. As for who's better, I think regardless of stats Palmer is a better player. It's almost a cliché by now to say that Foden is a system player and doesn't impose himself on games enough, but I think that's absolutely true, whereas Palmer is always in the mix to make a difference. He doesn't just drift through games reliant on colleagues to do the business

For what it's worth I think Palmer and Saka are about on a par, with Foden a level below.

 

[Daydreamer]

Do you really think that city are happy they sold Palmer? Because I certainly don't. As for who's better, I think regardless of stats Palmer is a better player. It's almost a cliché by now to say that Foden is a system player and doesn't impose himself on games enough, but I think that's absolutely true, whereas Palmer is always in the mix to make a difference. He doesn't just drift through games reliant on colleagues to do the business

For what it's worth I think Palmer and Saka are about on a par, with Foden a level below.

I think City were happy to sell Palmer, yes. Because they did so with very little fuss and then went on to win the league. Again.

Would they have preferred for him to have stayed and fight for his place? Obviously. But he had no intention of doing that. He want d to be the first name in the team sheet, something that City couldn’t offer him and that Chelsea could.

I really don’t think Pep is crying over Palmer leaving. He lost and replaced far better players in the past and will do so again before he retires.

 

[Pickle85]

I think City were happy to sell Palmer, yes. Because they did so with very little fuss and then went on to win the league. Again.

Would they have preferred for him to have stayed and fight for his place? Obviously. But he had no intention of doing that. He want d to be the first name in the team sheet, something that City couldn’t offer him and that Chelsea could.

I really don’t think Pep is crying over Palmer leaving. He lost and replaced far better players in the past and will do so again before he retires.

Well, yes, they were obviously willing to sell him but there's a significant amount of different between willing and happy. You say he wanted to be the first name on the team sheet but that's obviously not true in a team that had/has kdb, rodri, Bernardo etc. He wasn't even the first name on the team sheet when he joined Chelsea.

Pep let him leave because he'd rather spend money than trust in city's youth.

 

[Daydreamer]

Well, yes, they were obviously willing to sell him but there's a significant amount of different between willing and happy. You say he wanted to be the first name on the team sheet but that's obviously not true in a team that had/has kdb, rodri, Bernardo etc.

I'm unsure what you're point is. I'm saying he wanted to be the first name on the team sheet, saw KDB, Rodri, Bernardo (as you correctly pointed out) and accurately surmised that it wasn't going to happen at City.

He wasn't even the first name on the team sheet when he joined Chelsea.

He pretty much instantly became Chelsea's focal point, corner taker, free kick taker and penalty taker and played 48 matches across the season. He was on the bench a grand total of two games, both of which were during August with the transfer window still open having just joined a first team squad of 43 players.

Pep let him leave because he'd rather spend money than trust in city's youth.

This is a puzzling thing to state after listing three players that were keeping Palmer out of the team. Pep let him leave because he had superior players. Even Palmer seemed to accept that and so (admirably) left to progress his career.