Ryan Gravenberch | signs for Liverpool

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Mainoldo said:
Which is just an opinion piece. He had to do something to get to Bayern, yes he might just be lucky but it happens rarely.

My point is we aren’t set up to get a player from South America and give them minutes and the platform for them to develop like Caicedo and Enzo, not at this point.

But what we can do is take a chance on talented players who have been in an elite environment and give them a chance to prove themselves for a price tag that represents their failing.

Doesn’t mean it will work but occasionally they do. Just like Patrick Vieira who had 2 appearances for AC Milan before moving to Arsenal.
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Context: Serie A was the most competitive league at the time. There is a reason players used to break through at older age. Milan was stacked in midfield. They had their own Ambrosini who at the time breaking through. When Vieira got sold, they got Edgar Davids from Ajax (a top tier European team at the time) on a free transfer. Arsenal and PL was a couple step down from Milan and Serie A. Arsenal offered them an irresistible offer 3.5mil (Shearer world record fee was 15mil at the time). That's 40+mil if we use Neymar 200mil transfer as measurement stick. Milan won Serie A in the season Vieira there, where previous year champion Juventus, won CL this season. That's different level competitiveness than trailing Dortmund by one point who is a joke in CL for years now.

The difference here is that Bayern and Bundesliga is no where as competitive for young player to break through. He would not actually take a step down moving to us, or there is position in the team for him to go straight in like at Arsenal. Vieira is more like of Camavinga class talent that you would have tried to get last summer if Real Madrid decided to keep Casemiro while adding Tchouameni. It's not like Bayern is adding Edgar Davids equivalent, or bringing through one of their own this season.

Gravenberch is not in that cream of the crop talent level in the first place. He's not the De Ligt nor FDJ level. He's talented and experienced enough for his age, that got him his move to Bayern, but it looks like it's a step too big. And moving to PL, and us a team expected to take that next step next season is not helping the situation. Sabitzer didn't improve his position here that much despite our our midfield option was open at time. I don't see how Gravenberch would help himself and us, moving here.

Transfer fee reference:
Seedorf who is of the same age, also moved in the same year (to Real Madrid) cost 3.25mil Euro more. Seedorf was one of the highest rated young midfielder. He was more established since he's an integrated member of Ajax squad that won CL, before moving to Sampdoria for a season. So Vieira cost about 2 third of Seedorf fee despite being a work in progress at Milan. Milan saw him as prized asset for the future.

Roberto Carlos moved to Real Madrid the same year too and cost under 1mil euro more.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/clarence-seedorf/transfers/spieler/4168
https://www.transfermarkt.us/patrick-vieira/transfers/spieler/3183
https://www.transfermarkt.us/roberto-carlos/transfers/spieler/7518
 
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ti vu said:
Context: Serie A was the most competitive league at the time. There is a reason players used to break through at older age. Milan was stacked in midfield. They had their own Ambrosini who at the time breaking through. When Vieira got sold, they got Edgar Davids from Ajax (a top tier European team at the time) on a free transfer. Arsenal and PL was a couple step down from Milan and Serie A. Arsenal offered them an irresistible offer 3.5mil (Shearer world record fee was 15mil at the time). That's 40+mil if we use Neymar 200mil transfer as measurement stick. Milan won Serie A in the season Vieira there, where previous year champion Juventus, won CL this season. That's different level competitiveness than trailing Dortmund by one point who is a joke in CL for years now.

The difference here is that Bayern and Bundesliga is no where as competitive for young player to break through. He would not actually take a step down moving to us, or there is position in the team for him to go straight in like at Arsenal. Vieira is more like of Camavinga class talent that you would have tried to get last summer if Real Madrid decided to keep Casemiro while adding Tchouameni. It's not like Bayern is adding Edgar Davids equivalent, or bringing through one of their own this season.

Gravenberch is not in that cream of the crop talent level in the first place. He's not the De Ligt nor FDJ level. He's talented and experienced enough for his age, that got him his move to Bayern, but it looks like it's a step too big. And moving to PL, and us a team expected to take that next step next season is not helping the situation. Sabitzer didn't improve his position here that much despite our our midfield option was open at time. I don't see how Gravenberch would help himself and us, moving here.

Transfer fee reference:
Seedorf who is of the same age, also moved in the same year (to Real Madrid) cost 3.25mil Euro more. Seedorf was one of the highest rated young midfielder. He was more established since he's an integrated member of Ajax squad that won CL, before moving to Sampdoria for a season. So Vieira cost about 2 third of Seedorf fee despite being a work in progress at Milan. Milan saw him as prized asset for the future.

Roberto Carlos moved to Real Madrid the same year too and cost under 1mil euro more.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/clarence-seedorf/transfers/spieler/4168
https://www.transfermarkt.us/patrick-vieira/transfers/spieler/3183
https://www.transfermarkt.us/roberto-carlos/transfers/spieler/7518
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Again so what’s wild about the £35m fee I’ve mentioned doesn’t that not hold the same
Context as Vieira. Your talking about a league that had Roy Keane go for the same fee Vieira went for 4 years prior.

It might not be as competitive as a league but the team itself is competitive. He’s not going to over come their current midfield two plus they had Sabitzer included into that list. As the 10 again they have a claimed generational talent in Jamal. If anything it was just the wrong move for him like a lot of those Dutch players in the 90s going Italy.

Also for abit of context on fees. Parma signed Veron from Argentina the year after Vieira for £15m. So it was far from outrageous money from Arsenal.
 
Mainoldo said:
Again so what’s wild about the £35m fee I’ve mentioned doesn’t that not hold the same
Context as Vieira. Your talking about a league that had Roy Keane go for the same fee Vieira went for 4 years prior.

It might not be as competitive as a league but the team itself is competitive. He’s not going to over come their current midfield two plus they had Sabitzer included into that list. As the 10 again they have a claimed generational talent in Jamal. If anything it was just the wrong move for him like a lot of those Dutch players in the 90s going Italy.

Also for abit of context on fees. Parma signed Veron from Argentina the year after Vieira for £15m. So it was far from outrageous money from Arsenal.
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What are you talking about? Veron moved to Parma in 1998 from Sampdoria for that 15mil fee after establishing himself as one of the best playmaker in Serie A. Roy Keane signing was British record fee after established him in PL with clear pathway to take over as starter. All in all, Milan treated Vieira as big talent, and asked for a big fee for 20/21 years old that was not established at top league like Serie A.

The wild thing about your post is that you implied very different circumstances as something similar, to justify the notion that it's a good business model to buy Gravenberch from Bayern. You're on the wrong side of the traffic. Reizinger, Kluivert flopped at Milan. They got to move to Barcelona, a step down into a less competitive league and a team with a more suitable style of play. Davids broke his leg, and he struggled during his time at Milan. However, he had established himself enough now in his mid 20 that Juventus picked him up. Even Seedorf moving to Real Madrid to join Capello is not comparable. He didn't flop at Sampdoria.

Milan was stacked in midfield. Not only the league but within the team also more competitive. Vieira was just too young to break through with at least 4 players ahead of him. After Sabitzer went out on loan, Bayern midfield option is not so stacked. 2 true midfielders and Musiala playing every game, yet Gravenberch doesn't even get the amount Sabitzer used to get. And Gravenberch had plenty of European experience in CL and EL with Ajax already.

Gravenberch is not on the same talent level. You may take the next Hojbjerg from Bayern here for 35mil and spend years to develop him in even tougher environment.
 
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Not seen him that much but he doesn’t look all that. Not very consistent in his passing, which is what United need more than anything, I think. For him to have done NOTHING at Bayern says something.
 
Tarrou said:
would be wary if Bayern are happy to let him go so soon
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I think I read in this thread that they're not, so there that. But that would also mean that he's not actually available, so there's that as well.
 
MadMike said:
I can understand that it's tough to break into the Bayern starting XI and not making it doesn't mean you're a bad player and all, but would he manage to break into the starting XI here? Because he allegedly wants to leave Bayern for more first team football.

Is he good enough to be a starting XI a player here? Will he dislodge Eriksen?

It sounds a lot to me like he might not be ready to be a starter at this level and he will either have to bide his time, or go to a slightly lower profile team and get more games there. He doesn't sound like the CM you build your midfield around at our level, not yet anyway.
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Eriksen has to be subbed after an hour every match, so presumably Gravenbirch would be subbed on for him in most matches in the same way that Fred has been used at times.

I think the squad probably needs at least 1 top class CM, but if McTom and Fred are being shipped out this summer another one will be needed as well. If Gravenbirch is available for close to what Bayern paid last year it's a good idea to get him.
 
Think he will be looked at by Liverpool who will want at least 2-3 midfielders.

He will have a better chance there as he will get more starts. Here he will have to shuffle with Eriksen and Fred.

At Liverpool, Henderson is not a starter anymore, thiago as well.
 
RedOrange said:
Eriksen has to be subbed after an hour every match, so presumably Gravenbirch would be subbed on for him in most matches in the same way that Fred has been used at times.

I think the squad probably needs at least 1 top class CM, but if McTom and Fred are being shipped out this summer another one will be needed as well. If Gravenbirch is available for close to what Bayern paid last year it's a good idea to get him.
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The problem is Eriksen should be a sub so any midfield signing we are looking at must be better than him. What’s the point of signing yet another player to sit on the bench in a position that we have numbers but lack quality.
 
elmo said:
The problem is Eriksen should be a sub so any midfield signing we are looking at must be better than him. What’s the point of signing yet another player to sit on the bench in a position that we have numbers but lack quality.
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Like I said, we need an actual top quality CM who can approximate the things that Frenkie De Jong can do first. I don't think there's any use for half measures at this position and I don't think Gravenbirch is that player, although he might have the potential to be. I just think if he's available for the same price he was last summer he might be worth a punt as a young squad player who ETH could continue to develop.

We also don't know if ETH likes Mainoo or Iqbal and wants to use them as squad players next year, although their limited minutes this season suggest that's probably not the case.
 
RedOrange said:
Like I said, we need an actual top quality CM who can approximate the things that Frenkie De Jong can do first. I don't think there's any use for half measures at this position and I don't think Gravenbirch is that player, although he might have the potential to be. I just think if he's available for the same price he was last summer he might be worth a punt as a young squad player who ETH could continue to develop.

We also don't know if ETH likes Mainoo or Iqbal and wants to use them as squad players next year, although their limited minutes this season suggest that's probably not the case.
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The bold part is the issue. Developing a young player to a squad player level is difficult. We're not in position that we can get comfortable result with our starting XI. If we have that luxury, we could have put it toward developing Mainoo with expectation of becoming cheap squad player. Of course we don't. In PL, as we can see, it's much difficult to see out result. Even the relegation battlers have game changing players. Mistakes are less tolerable. There is a reason Bundesliga is preferred destination in recent years for young players to get CL football as well as game time.

Buying inexperienced young player should only be considered if that young player has huge potential to become a starter for us, which IMO Gravenberch is not.
 
We need to get to the point where we are only bringing in world class players, or better still those with the potential to be world class. This is what Real Madrid are trying to do, in signing Camavinga, Tchouameni and potentially Bellingham, if they don't work out, they can move them on and sign the next wonderkid. It is actually a fairly low risk strategy as their wages are generally lower than an already established superstar, so they are easier to move on, and there is only likely to be a small hit on the transfer fee write-down, as they still have great potential and are early 20s (key is not to give crazy salaries and nor to hold on for too long like we did with Martial).

Currently we have too many holes in the squad, so we are making do with sticky plasters, but we are in a far better position than last year as most of our first team is OK, apart from the striker. In one window we relegated Maguire, Mctominay and Fred to the bench. Once we have brought in an FDJ type and an established first team striker like Kane / Osimhen this window, next window we should be looking to bring in the De Ligt, Tchouameni and Haaland of that window (Eg Gvardiol, Pedri, Musiala and Hojlund maybe?). Basically the best kid in the world in their position, coming in to compete and eventually look to oust the incumbent in their position.
 
This guy has potential so I don’t mind if we sign this guy and he would be very interested since he wants more minutes to play.
 
This might not be that stupid for a good price. We will have to find some cost effective options if we are going to strengthen all of the required positions. He's still really young even though the move to Bayern has not worked out.
 
Honestly is he United level? Simpler question will he offer more than Onana.
 
MUFC OK said:




Do we reckon it's about Gravenberch, Pavard or both?
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You’d like to think it would be about the position we are crying out for and not another defender when we can’t shift the ones we already have.
 
Mainoldo said:
Honestly is he United level? Simpler question will he offer more than Onana.
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Yes, he's definitely raw but I think has a higher ceiling than Onana and Ten Hag clearly knows how to use him too, he's a good #8 that can do a bit of everything to be fair other than score/ assist.

Great positioning, tackling, aerial ability, interceptions, passing but his decision making needs a bit of work but I rate him
 
MUFC OK said:




Do we reckon it's about Gravenberch, Pavard or both?
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Has to be Gravenberch if it's true, considering the lump/slab we have at 4th choice CB is being suitably obdurate and refusing to move, unless Bayern's technical team have taken leave of their senses and decided to swap Mag/Pav...
 
James35 said:
You’d like to think it would be about the position we are crying out for and not another defender when we can’t shift the ones we already have.
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I agree. Personally think we should go after Gravenberch AND Amrabat whilst moving McTominay on. That's the kind of strength in depth that we need, esp after the Wolves performance.

More chance of platting fog than all of the above happening though, in reality.
 
Another who can’t get into Bayerns team in his best position and we aspire to be better than them? don’t get me wrong he looked like a super prospect at Ajax and he’s still a really good age but we should be making these moves ourselves before the player stagnates at another club with better established players ahead of them and loses developmental minutes and momentum.
 
I don’t rate this fella one bit. I’m getting Donny vibes.

He went to a big club, in a league theoretically easier than ours, and he completely failed to make any sort of impact. Had fewer appearances than Pellistri, last year.

He needs to move down a level and rediscover some form. Not move to an even tougher place. We already have a you CM in Mainoo to give opportunities to when needed.
 
MUFC OK said:
I agree. Personally think we should go after Gravenberch AND Amrabat whilst moving McTominay on. That's the kind of strength in depth that we need, esp after the Wolves performance.

More chance of platting fog than all of the above happening though, in reality.
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Yes, this would be ideal and what we need, whether them two players or other options but unfortunately it isn't happening and it’s why we will continue being a good side and not a top one fighting for the major honours. It seems we are always one or two top players in certain positions away from being ready to challenge. Maybe next summer we finally have a window where every signing makes sense and fits the holes we have in the squad - and hopefully under new owners with loads of money!
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
Yes, he's definitely raw but I think has a higher ceiling than Onana and Ten Hag clearly knows how to use him too, he's a good #8 that can do a bit of everything to be fair other than score/ assist.

Great positioning, tackling, aerial ability, interceptions, passing but his decision making needs a bit of work but I rate him
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He’s got great attributes I just worry about his failure to settle at Bayern. Even with the competition he should have got more games.

But I would take him on a loan to buy.
 
Mainoldo said:
Honestly is he United level? Simpler question will he offer more than Onana.
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Good question. He’s done nothing of note for us. But he also joined us in a rather turbulent moment. So he’s extremely difficult to judge. But from what he’s done for Bayern, I would say he’s not good enough.
 
Come on Utd. Do a Chelsea and embarrass us to his signing. Then have a good laugh about it. Sorted.
 
Xaviboy said:
Can we not do a season loan deal like we did with sabitzer
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Honestly, this would be the best solution .It gives us time to develop Manoo and possibly Hannibal, to challenge Mason M if(and i suspect 'when') the experiment with midfield fails, to phase out Scott if we can't sell him at end of this window anyway). Gravenberch also gets developed for Munich free of charge to either go back into their 1st team next season or be sold off for better money, or proves he needs to be sold off in worst case scenario.
 
He was one of the biggest talents at Ajax two years ago and even played in the national team in that period. When Frenkie de Jong went to Barcelona Gravenberch replaced him in the Ajax team, although he played a bit different than De Jong, more as a number 8. He made a very stupid decision to join Bayern and fecked up his chances for the WC because he didn’t play. He’s still raw but very talented with a very high ceiling.
 
Dumbstar said:
Come on Utd. Do a Chelsea and embarrass us to his signing. Then have a good laugh about it. Sorted.
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He's still more mobile and more natural as no.8 than Mason Mount, and better than Scott McT, even if he only ends up playing at Sabitzer levels. Not my first pick by any means (there are probably 4 players in the French league alone who suit our immediate needs more, and maybe Liverpool's too) , but our midfield is desperate enough right now, apart from staking on Mainoo and Casemiro suddenly recovering sharpness...
 
Just watched a highlights video of the guy and the majority of the video was based on his Ajax days. :nervous:
 
Amsterdam Devil said:
He was one of the biggest talents at Ajax two years ago and even played in the national team in that period. When Frenkie de Jong went to Barcelona Gravenberch replaced him in the Ajax team, although he played a bit different than De Jong, more as a number 8. He made a very stupid decision to join Bayern and fecked up his chances for the WC because he didn’t play. He’s still raw but very talented with a very high ceiling.
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I could see him as a Casemiro understudy to be honest.
 
Good: Technique, dribbling, speed, short passes
Okay: Shooting, long passes
(very) bad: Positioning, tackling, decision making
Questionable: Mentality

Nagelsmann at the end and Tuchel see him more as a CAM than a CM, let alone a CDM.

Would be happy to let him go for a good amount of money although i COULD imagine that he turns into a good player in the next few years.
 
Rapsel said:
I could see him as a Casemiro understudy to be honest.
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For Bayern Gravenberch was a big defensive liability even in a double pivot next to Kimmich when Goretzka was injured (Sabitzer did a way better job there at the beginning of last season).
Gravenberch has to have played very differently for Ajax if you can imagine him as a Casemior understudy.
 
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