Ruud Van Nistelrooy

Tbf Ruud's record against Arsenal was pretty bad. He only scored 2 goals and one of it was a PK.

That said we usually can contain Henry but he had some incredibly flukey goals against us. Off the top of my head I can recall he got 2 goals from 2 Barthez howlers. Another 2 goals at a different
game, one hit his shin and megged Barthez and another one he was at least a yard offside.
 
Raoul said:
11 "goalpoints" against us in 8 years at Arsenal. That's some record.
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Its a better ratio than anyone else by the looks of it, and I was counting PL matches.
Aguero has been involved in 8 goals in 13 PL matches against us
Henry has been involved in 11 goals in 14 PL matches.
 
Adnan said:
Ruud was a very good striker and was world class in his peak but he was never considered among the best strikers ever. He wasn't even considered the best striker from Holland.
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Best strikers ever at United.
 
Adnan said:
Ruud was a very good striker and was world class in his peak but he was never considered among the best strikers ever. He wasn't even considered the best striker from Holland.
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What now? Ruud didn’t have the most natural ability for a Dutch striker but I fail to believe the one time Dutch top scorer isn’t considered one of the best.
 
Mainoldo said:
What now? Ruud didn’t have the most natural ability for a Dutch striker but I fail to believe the one time Dutch top scorer isn’t considered one of the best.
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In what context? If you're saying he was one of the best strikers 'ever' then I completely disagree. Marco Van Basten was a few notches above Ruud and the only Dutch striker you could argue was one of the all time great strikers.
 
Raoul said:
Sorry I should've clarified this in my post. I'm still aghast from the recent Ruud thread that people considered RvP to be better.
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Ruud’s the best but if we are being honest RVP was the better player all round.. Technical we probably don’t see him as ‘ours’ the way we view Ruud.
 
Mainoldo said:
Ruud’s the best but if we are being honest RVP was the better player all round.. Technical we probably don’t see him as ‘ours’ the way we view Ruud.
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He was a winger for part of this career, so he can't be considered a better striker - RvP's best 5 years in terms of goals (irrespective of club throughout his entire career) never equaled what Ruud did in his 5 at United - averaging 30 goals a year here.
 
Raoul said:
He was a winger for part of this career, so he can't be considered a better striker - RvP's best 5 years in terms of goals (irrespective of club throughout his entire career) never equaled what Ruud did in his 5 at United - averaging 30 goals a year here.
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I disagree.. RVP’s top level, as a striker that is not an inverted winger..was better than Ruud’s. He also reached his goal tally heights.
 
Mainoldo said:
I disagree.. RVP’s top level, as a striker that is not an inverted winger..was better than Ruud’s. He also reached his goal tally heights.
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Not a chance. RvP never maintained the output Ruud did. 150 goals in 5 years. You could make the case that RvP's final year at Arse was on par with Ruud - but other than that, its not even close. Ruud was absolutely dominant during a very weak spell in Fergie's reign.
 
Raoul said:
Sorry I should've clarified this in my post. I'm still aghast from the recent Ruud thread that people considered RvP to be better.
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I feel personally that if van Persie hadn't suffered the horrendous numbers of injuries he did he would be considered better but you can't argue with Ruud (particularly his champions League record which was absolutely amazing)
 
In my lifetime we've been blessed with great strikers. Ruud was quality. When he started to sulk (and I think selling Becks was a big part of that), when Saha pushed him for his spot and we benched Ruud - he lost his game. A shame because in the box he was lethal.
 
Adnan said:
In what context? If you're saying he was one of the best strikers 'ever' then I completely disagree. Marco Van Basten was a few notches above Ruud and the only Dutch striker you could argue was one of the all time great strikers.
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Why does Van Basten have a international goal return of 0.41 goals per game to Ruud's 0.5?

His MIlan goal record is not exactly better than Ruud's at United either
 
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Raoul said:
Not a chance. RvP never maintained the output Ruud did. 150 goals in 5 years. You could make the case that RvP's final year at Arse was on par with Ruud - but other than that, its not even close. Ruud was absolutely dominant during a very weak spell in Fergie's reign.
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That’s not what I said.. I said at their height output RVP was the better player. If we had to pick a striker RVP is the better striker and I feel this would also be considered internationally aswell.
 
Mainoldo said:
That’s not what I said.. I said at their height output RVP was the better player. If we had to pick a striker RVP is the better striker and I feel this would also be considered internationally aswell.
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Ruud had a 44 goal year at his height. Its confounding how any one can say RvP was better.
 
Raoul said:
Ruud had a 44 goal year at his height. Its confounding how any one can say RvP was better.
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Stop telling me about goals I’m talking about the actual player. It’s like telling me Inzaghi is better than Del Piero. When both players were performing at their peak level there’s not anything RVN could do that RVP couldn’t. Your just making a personal preference judgement.
 
Mainoldo said:
Stop telling me about goals I’m talking about the actual player. It’s like telling me Inzaghi is better than Del Piero. When both players were performing at their peak level there’s not anything RVN could do that RVP couldn’t. Your just making a personal preference judgement.
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So are you - I'm just backing my judgement up with numbers.
 
Raoul said:
So are you - I'm just backing my judgement up with numbers.
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No way :lol:

Movement: Equal
Finishing: RVP (Range of finishing inc)
Heading: RVN
Pace: RVP
Skillset: RVP
Strength: RVN

There’s nothing RVN excelled in over RVP that was blatant.
 
Mainoldo said:
No way :lol:

Movement: Equal
Finishing: RVP (Range of finishing inc)
Heading: RVN
Pace: RVP
Skillset: RVP
Strength: RVN

There’s nothing RVN excelled in over RVP that was blatant.
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RvP had two 30 goal years in his entire career. Not a big deal since he started out as a winger, was injured a lot etc. There's no crime in not being as good as Ruud van Nistelrooy.
 
Stacks said:
Why does Van Basten have a international goal return of 0.41 goals per game to Ruud's 0.5?

His MIlan goal record is not exactly better than Ruud's at United either
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Van Basten had to retire at 28 due to injury but already did more for the Dutch national team than Van Nistelrooy ever did. He was a much more complete player in comparison. He was lethal with either foot, was better in the air, quicker and could score from ridiculous angles whether that be close range or from distance. Anyone who watched Van Basten closely will know what I mean.

At Milan he was playing in a league at a time where catenaccio was the default setting for teams in a league that was head and shoulders the best in the world. Van Basten scoring the amount he did in that period is a testament to how great he was as a striker. The spreadsheet only tells you so much, but the clearer picture and context is always provided by the eye.

There's no argument to be had here and most Dutchies would agree. Even Ruud agrees.
 
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In debates like it’s probably useful to clarify whether “ever” is intended to mean during the Ferguson era or the club’s entire history.

If it’s the former then it’s pretty clear Ruud was our greatest finisher and striker...during the Ferguson era. Robin and Wayne get a shout, but Robin was with us for too short of a time be in this conversation anyway. The case for Wayne is reasonable, but if we’re talking specifically about mastery of goal scoring production, well, Ruud lifts the trophy.
 
lex talionis said:
In debates like it’s probably useful to clarify whether “ever” is intended to mean during the Ferguson era or the club’s entire history.

If it’s the former then it’s pretty clear Ruud was our greatest finisher and striker...during the Ferguson era. Robin and Wayne get a shout, but Robin was with us for too short of a time be in this conversation anyway. The case for Wayne is reasonable, but if we’re talking specifically about mastery of goal scoring production, well, Ruud lifts the trophy.
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We're largely talking about while at United here. RvP's contribution (although very good in year one) isn't even remotely as comprehensive as Ruud's.
 
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Mainoldo said:
No way :lol:

Movement: Equal
Finishing: RVP (Range of finishing inc)
Heading: RVN
Pace: RVP
Skillset: RVP
Strength: RVN

There’s nothing RVN excelled in over RVP that was blatant.
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RVN scored at rate of 0.6 goals per appearance throughout his club career! Let that sink in mate. We're including his time at Den Bosch when he played as a MF, we're including his time at Malaga and Hamburg when he was completely done. I think he had close to 10 consecutive seasons where he exceeded that rate. RVP had 4 such seasons!
 
anant said:
RVN scored at rate of 0.6 goals per appearance throughout his club career! Let that sink in mate. We're including his time at Den Bosch when he played as a MF, we're including his time at Malaga and Hamburg when he was completely done. I think he had close to 10 consecutive seasons where he exceeded that rate. RVP had 4 such seasons!
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He’s not better than RVP and the fact most people picked him over RVN in there greatest United teams speaks volumes.
 
Mainoldo said:
He’s not better than RVP and the fact most people picked him over RVN in there greatest United teams speaks volumes.
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Who did?
Among the players to have played with both of them, Scholes, Rio picked RVN , Giggs and Rooney didn't pick either
 
anant said:
RVN scored at rate of 0.6 goals per appearance throughout his club career! Let that sink in mate. We're including his time at Den Bosch when he played as a MF, we're including his time at Malaga and Hamburg when he was completely done. I think he had close to 10 consecutive seasons where he exceeded that rate. RVP had 4 such seasons!
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This is more than enough information to finally settle the absurdity of the comparison.
 
Our most clinical finisher ever
- Agreed

Our best striker ever
- In terms of being an absolute goal machine yes. In terms of overall picture, i.e. what he meant to the club and the fans - that would be Eric Cantona.
 
A Van Persie that would stay fit throughout a season would be an incredible forward easily top five in the world .

Hard to compare him to Ruud though as they are very different types of players. Van Persie is a much more rounded player and has more to his game so yes i would take him over Ruud same as i would take Ronaldo over Ruud or Henry.
 
I wonder how he would be rated in today's game. For as great a goalscorer he was, his all round play was still very lacking. There was ultimately a reason why SAF decided to replace him with the much more inferior goalscorer in Saha, and that we became a better team with Saha playing alongside Rooney.

Even when he went to Madrid, he had a great goalscoring record there too, so it is not as if he was past it by the time we sold him. You look at players like Gomez this decade, who scored 80 goals for Bayern (11 in 16 for Germany from 2011 to 2012) over two seasons but still wasn't considered a great striker by most, ironically even he was replaced with a big striker who could hold the ball better than him.

Ciro Immobile for Lazio is similar, pure goalscorers are simply not valued these days. Icardi is similar as well, while he is at a big club he still isn't valued as much as Neymar and Mbappe. Would a player like Aubamayeng also fit that criteria (though Aubamayeng has the advantage of being more versatile in a front 3 by being able to play in the wing).
 
hasanejaz88 said:
I wonder how he would be rated in today's game. For as great a goalscorer he was, his all round play was still very lacking. There was ultimately a reason why SAF decided to replace him with the much more inferior goalscorer in Saha, and that we became a better team with Saha playing alongside Rooney.

Even when he went to Madrid, he had a great goalscoring record there too, so it is not as if he was past it by the time we sold him. You look at players like Gomez this decade, who scored 80 goals for Bayern (11 in 16 for Germany from 2011 to 2012) over two seasons but still wasn't considered a great striker by most, ironically even he was replaced with a big striker who could hold the ball better than him.

Ciro Immobile for Lazio is similar, pure goalscorers are simply not valued these days. Icardi is similar as well, while he is at a big club he still isn't valued as much as Neymar and Mbappe. Would a player like Aubamayeng also fit that criteria (though Aubamayeng has the advantage of being more versatile in a front 3 by being able to play in the wing).
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Unless I'm forgetting, wasn't the decision to replace RVN also driven by a training ground bust-up he had with Ronaldo? No doubt that we became a better team once he left. A lot of that was also down to our ability to effectively play an ultra-fluid 4-6-0/4-4-2 for the 2006-2008 period.

I think formational fluidity and the focus of transitions are where the modern game has moved away from traditional #9s. There's so much training ground work done specifically to develop "overloads": situations where a man advantage makes it very difficult for the opposing team. What would be interesting to see is whether RVN's incredible positioning would allow him to still find that tiny bit of space and time to finish despite these changes in the way the game is played.

It's a weird comparison, but I almost see him playing the kind of roles (not position) that Alli or Muller play in the modern game. It's really the ability to find a pocket of space that is their main currency rather than being exceptional at anything in particular. Neither of them contribute massively to build up play either. Obviously on top, RVN is an exceptional finisher, was supremely mobile and had nerves of steel. I'd bet he would actually do quite well in our current side with someone like Bruno feeding him.
 
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Adnan said:
Van Basten had to retire at 28 due to injury but already did more for the Dutch national team than Van Nistelrooy ever did. He was a much more complete player in comparison. He was lethal with either foot, was better in the air, quicker and could score from ridiculous angles whether that be close range or from distance. Anyone who watched Van Basten closely will know what I mean.

At Milan he was playing in a league at a time where catenaccio was the default setting for teams in a league that was head and shoulders the best in the world. Van Basten scoring the amount he did in that period is a testament on how great he was as a striker. The spreadsheet only tells you so much, but the clearer picture and context is always provided by the eye.

There's no argument to be had here and most Dutchies would agree. Even Ruud agrees.
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I agree with much of what you say and I don't believe Ruud was as good as him. I am just querying the few notches above aspect.

by 28 Van Basten had top scored in one international tournament where funny enough he scored just ONE goal more than Ruud's best tournament return. Van Basten has also never scored in the world cup finals!

Was he really that much better in the air? How are you deciding this when Ruud was a beast in the air and I wouldn't say any striker was much better at scoring headers than Ruud? Van Basten best season for headed goals was 9 compared to Ruuds 6 but both typically average 3/4 per season and the premier league has more aerially dominant defenders who are accustomed to playing in the air.

I don't know how you can say he was quicker. It's not like comparing the speed of Ruud with Henry for example. RVN was rapid and regularly outpaced defenders in a league that relies on physical attributes.

Van Basten takes it on the ranged goals, striking with both feet and the distanced shooting.

Catenaccio was on the decline by the 80s.

I agree that Italian league has been the best from mid 80s through to the beginning of the 21st century so fair play to Van Basten BUT their goal returns in Europe were very similar, so it's curious that someone was a couple of notches below another striker but had equal or better goal scoring in the 2 most neutral competitions (neither played in the same European Leagues).
 
We were incredibly blessed to have both RVP and RVN. I loved both of them and its hard to pick out which one is better, I guess its down to personal preference.

For me, I'd pick Ruud Van Nistelrooy every day of the week. He was a goalscoring monster.
 
I fecking love Van Nistelrooy. His strikes were always so unerring. No messing about, just lethal finishing.
 
My favourite striker. He deserved to win more than he did whilst he was here. A shame the way it ended for him but I think him and SAF patched things up which was good to see.

Think my favourite ever goal was his first in the 2-2 draw with Arsenal at Highbury in 2003. Such an amazing game, one of those which just sticks in the memory.
 
Stacks said:
I agree with much of what you say and I don't believe Ruud was as good as him. I am just querying the few notches above aspect.

by 28 Van Basten had top scored in one international tournament where funny enough he scored just ONE goal more than Ruud's best tournament return. Van Basten has also never scored in the world cup finals!

Was he really that much better in the air? How are you deciding this when Ruud was a beast in the air and I wouldn't say any striker was much better at scoring headers than Ruud? Van Basten best season for headed goals was 9 compared to Ruuds 6 but both typically average 3/4 per season and the premier league has more aerially dominant defenders who are accustomed to playing in the air.

I don't know how you can say he was quicker. It's not like comparing the speed of Ruud with Henry for example. RVN was rapid and regularly outpaced defenders in a league that relies on physical attributes.

Van Basten takes it on the ranged goals, striking with both feet and the distanced shooting.

Catenaccio was on the decline by the 80s.

I agree that Italian league has been the best from mid 80s through to the beginning of the 21st century so fair play to Van Basten BUT their goal returns in Europe were very similar, so it's curious that someone was a couple of notches below another striker but had equal or better goal scoring in the 2 most neutral competitions (neither played in the same European Leagues).
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Van Basten was a more talented player not just as a goal scorer due to the variety of goals he scored but also due to his ability to create goals. So even when he didn't score goals he would still still be among the most influential players on the pitch due to his ability on the ball/skill level.

Van Nisterooy was good in the air but he was no Van Basten in that regard and having had the pleasure of watching both players play during their careers it's a easy conclusion to come to. Below are quotes from ex legends (Carragher :lol:) of the game describing the phenemonal footballer Marco Van Basten and 3x Bal'on d'or winner.


“I used to play with Marco van Basten at Milan. I asked him how we should give the ball to him. He said, “Just pass it, and then start running to congratulate me”. He always thought he would score, and he was usually right.” Carlo Ancelotti.

“He’s the quickest 6ft 3in centre-forward I’ve ever seen! Just awesome. He was as quick as Ian Wright, as good in the air as Joe Jordan and he held the ball up better than Alan Smith. Van Basten could head, volley – he had power and strength.” Tony Adams.

“Injuries cut him down when he was in the best form of his career, spearheading Fabio Capello’s new and rejuvenated Milan side. Yet by then, Marco had already done enough to perhaps be regarded as the greatest number nine there’s ever been. People always talk about his strike against the Soviet Union in the 1988 European Championship Final, and yes, it was a great goal, but Marco scored even better goals, for both Ajax and AC Milan.” — Ronald Koeman

“Probably the best striker I’ve ever seen. He wasn’t just a goalscorer: he could hold the ball up superbly and had great skill, which he showed in his goals. He’ll always be remembered for hooking a stunning volley into the top corner in the Euro 88 final but at that time, at Milan, he was the main man in the best team in the world.” Jamie Carragher.

“Marco was the greatest centre forward that I’ve ever trained, he was a swan. Marco remains the greatest in his role. It was such a shame that he was forced to retire at 28. It was a mortal misfortune for him, for football, and for Milan.” Fabio Capello.

“He’s the greatest centre-forward I’ve ever played with or against. Quite simply, he had everything. He could dribble, was good in the air, good awareness, great touch. For such a big man – he’s 6ft 2in – to be so delicate was amazing. He played off the shoulder and his finishing was as good as any striker that has ever lived.” John Barnes.

“Oh yes. Right foot. Left foot. Heading, so strong, fast. He could score, he could pass the ball. He was the best. The way he played was timeless. He had to quit when he was 28. Surgery. Stupid surgery to the ankle. It was such a pity.” Paolo Maldini.

“He was elegance personified. He could score in millions of different ways and always with an unbelievable touch of class. He had no weak points – he was completely two-footed, and he was strong with his head, but he didn’t just score goals, he also created many, many assists. It is a shame that he stopped playing at such a young age. Had he continued into his thirties, I think he could have become a great ‘number 10’.” Marcel Desailly.

“It’s such a shame Van Basten’s career was curtailed by injury. What did he have that I didn’t? Touch, skill – and he scored goals as well. He was just such a wonderful, gifted, well-balanced footballer.” Gary Lineker.
 
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