I don't think we were every going to get the best out of Ronaldo and RVN together. They were both 'alpha' and wanted to score goals. Even if you put aside the issues RVN had with Ronaldo when Cristiano was younger, we weren't going to get the best out of them together. Ruud wanted, needed, a team to work for him. Ronaldo's style was just different.
Ruud Van Nistelrooy
- Thread starter Raoul
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I don't think we were every going to get the best out of Ronaldo and RVN together. They were both 'alpha' and wanted to score goals. Even if you put aside the issues RVN had with Ronaldo when Cristiano was younger, we weren't going to get the best out of them together. Ruud wanted, needed, a team to work for him. Ronaldo's style was just different.
Ruud won a league with in 2003 and the team scored 85 goals in 2002 despite coming third. In other words, we were scoring even more goals with Ruud, we were just conceding a whole lot more.
The ultimate irony being Ronny wound up being more fixated on scoring than perhaps anyone in the history of the game.
Ruud won with Beckham in the side and in 2002 when we did not win, we scored 87 goals with our defence conceding 45 goals. Why? Because Jaap Staam was replaced with Laurent Blanc. Keane and Giggs were not at peak after 2003. Beckham left in 2003. For the first half of 03-04, Utd were flying till Rio got suspended. Ole also got the injury that halted his career that year and due to the fact that we sold Veron ( with no capable replacement), we played 03-04 with Djemba-Djemba/Kleberson/Phil Neville/Aging Nicky Butt playing with Keane ( hampered and not as fit) every game. Giggs was no longer consistent on the flanks in 2004 and with Beckham gone, it meant we either played a young Ronaldo or Fletcher on the right flank, neither of whom were consistent. Also remember that Irwin was not replaced, so when Rio went out, we had a defence primarily consisting of O'shea, Brown, Silvestre and Phil Neville. Despite this, Ruud still managed to score 30 goals that season.
In 2005, Ruud was injured for most of the season, this meant that even though we signed Rooney, our strikeforce mostly consisted of Rooney and Alan Smith. We only scored 58 goals. The only season that Ruud's style of play came into question was 2005-2006. This was the season that Ronaldo and Rooney started to come into their own. Both primarily play fast on the counter, looking to play inside ( cut inside). Van Nistelrooy liked having crosses/passes played into him from the flank from his winger and was now a lot slower that he was before and could not make run's into the channels in the way he used to. Furthermore he could not press from the front like Sir Alex liked while Saha pressed heavily from the front. Ruud was now older and more immobile and with the counter attacking threat from rooney and ronaldo, Saha was the better partner for them than Ruud. Once you add this to the fact that Ruud was in big wages, would not want to sit on the bench as he had a world class reputation and was already causing issues on the training pitch due to ill feelings towards Ronaldo and an underlying need to play, it made sense to sell him.
I absolutely love Ruud. His positioning, composure and first touch inside the area was second to none. I've followed United since 92 and he's my favorite striker. He had a few rough patches during his time at United, and yet he managed an average of 30 goals per season.
What a player he was.
What a player he was.
In all fairness that 01/02 season wasn't solely on defense, yes 87 goals.... but 6, yes SIX home losses, in which we scored 1. 4 of them were also 1-0 losses, and a 1-2 to Bolton. We lost some absolutely ridiculous games that year....
Sums up what happens when you pretty much shake up your team that'd be fairly tight for 3 years sometimes, Stam/Cole/Yorke out, Veron/RVN/Blanc in and an attempt to move towards a more continental style. Weirdly, it kind of nearly paid off since it was all in on the CL really, and that Bayer loss must be most people's biggest regret in that era.
Sums up what happens when you pretty much shake up your team that'd be fairly tight for 3 years sometimes, Stam/Cole/Yorke out, Veron/RVN/Blanc in and an attempt to move towards a more continental style. Weirdly, it kind of nearly paid off since it was all in on the CL really, and that Bayer loss must be most people's biggest regret in that era.
Ruud was good. But the common denominator among title-winning teams is a fluid/dynamic striker who links up well with others. I don't think Ruud was that kind of player.
How true. I'm sure a 30 year old Ronny would absolutely hate playing with his 20 year old self. But it helped him find his game so as to speak. Scholesy and lot spanking him in training ought to have helped. It made him what he is today.
Exactly. This is not saying he couldn't create on his own which he could (Fulham being case in point) but with someone like a young Ronaldo you just never know when to run/beat the marker since he is fooling everyone including his own strikers waiting for supply. That has to be frustrating for someone so single-minded.
Yes RVN the most clinical striker. Pity him and Ronaldo couldnt have gotten on.
What's the all about? Out side was riddled with holes all throughout the Ruud years. He was the only one that consistently pulled his weight. He was our best player in that period by a distance.
Our defence collapsed after Stam left, we struggled to get a keeper, we had to go through Ronaldo's development stage and he was replacing a man who guaranteed quality performances. Irwin left and we were forced to go through a Phil Neville period, Keane was past it.
It was literally issue after issue. When the quality in the side got back up again due to some very good transfers back in 06, he was gone. The notion that he held us back is nonsense.
Even though I always prefer a striker with a wider variety of qualities, we played some wonderful football with Van Nistelrooy in 2001/02 and in the latter part of 2002/03. Maybe a few years later we did need to let go in order to move forward, but he wasn't the reason for our struggles during part of his stay with us and the less than swashbuckling football.
So now you want to have a proper discussion rather than just making a pointless post of "LOUD NOISES".
What about you learn how to read people discussion first before jump in. The discussion started as comparison which one better Ruud in 02/03 or RVP 19/20. Thus why I used it as reference, look at below image.
My opinion to determine who's the better striker is based on the way how they play. Ruud is all round striker but I don't expect him to get best outcome by playing him like complete striker. RVP is a complete striker and I expect him to get the best outcome by playing him in both ways of both poacher & complete striker. Point taken?
Your opinion on Ruud vs RVP are based on number of games & goals only. However, you are ignoring the fact that both are playing in different managers & different quality of players around him.
I call Ruud the best finisher and the most clinical striker, his goal ratio speaks itself, but if you want to judge overall as a striker, you'll need to see more than the numbers.
And please, let's not start comparing player's performance under Moyes & LVG with Sir Alex Ferguson.
It's not a good discussion isn't it if you just end it with sarcastic laugh but not answering the questions. The answer of the questions could actually be the key of the conclusion but you are ignoring them. Let me ask the questions again.
If RVP 12/13 plays in 02/03 squad, do you think he will score the same/similar amount of league goals as he did in 12/13?
If Ruud 02/03 plays in 12/13 squad, do you think he will score the same/similar amount of league goals as he did in 02/03?
You know the answer and you chose to ignore them because you just didn't want to admit it that my point about RVP & Ruud was correct. Best finisher & most clinical striker doesn't always make the striker is the best.
Its a pointless hypothetical since it will never happen. Your last sentence doesn't make sense either. Ruud was clearly more dominant during his time here. 44 goals in a single season - 150 in 5 years. Not all served up on a platter by Beckham, Scholes, or Giggs either.
I think the discussion was about who's the best striker not who's the best goalscorer. To me Ruud is the best finisher/goalscorer. RVP is just the better striker, he's more all round striker than Ruud. Ruud is all round striker but I don't expect him to get the same numbers as how he played as a poacher by playing him in more of a complete striker role. While I see RVP to get the same numbers by playing him in either roles.
Can't take anyone thinking RvP being Ruud's equal seriously, there was one tier between the two if we're being generous.
It's not pointless hypothetical. This is where the purpose of having discussion. I'm trying to give you more view of my point about both players, how one is a poacher while the other one is more of a complete striker.
You are ignoring how they both play, how both play with complete different quality players & how one of them will need certain role to perform at best while the other one can perform at best in any type of striker role. I judge strikers based on these factors not numbers alone. You judge them based on numbers alone.
Except that Ruud was not just a poacher. He created goals out of nothing just like RvP did, and put up better numbers than RvP did, for a longer period of time than RvP did.
We are talking just at United - I don't care what Ruud did at PSV or Madrid or what RvP did at Arsenal.
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Erm, Ruud scored more goals in a season where the team scored less goals and got less points. So why would he do any worse in a team that scores and creates more and bosses the league more? Doesn't make any sense. Now let's see RVP get 44 goals when the team isn't scoring we many shall we? Doubt he does given the chances he was missing in the second half of the season.
Ruud is all round striker, I had said said this like 10x already and yet you are completely ignore it. So I agree he's not just a poacher as he can created goals out of nothing.
However, poacher is how he performed at his best. Both of us had admitted this before that Ruud was well known as poacher not a complete striker. While RVP can perform at his best in any role of striker. The role striker that Sir Alex gave on Ruud & what Sir Alex gave on RVP were different. This is why I asked a sensible question to give you an idea what'll happen if Ruud is playing in a non poacher role while RVP is playing in a poacher role, and you ignore the questions.
This is the post that I replied to you (below image). We have been talking about Ruud 02/03 & RVP 12/13 at United as reference. To me RVP was just the better striker in that season than Ruud in the season when he scored 25 league goals & 44 in all comp. Ruud was the better clinical finisher.
I also still haven't get an answer of my very first question about Cantona. Would you even consider him better striker than Ruud?
You want people to consider many factors instead of looking at numbers and yet you couldn't see the factors behind that but just looking at numbers.
It makes sense because in 12/13 we played differently compared to in 02/03 season. The role that Sir Alex gave on RVP was different to the role that Sir Alex gave on Ruud. RVP can perform at best in different role of striker while Ruud need to be given that poacher role to perform at his best.
And let me remind you once again, I'm not saying Ruud can't score goals if he was given a role to be all round striker, he will score good or decent amount of goals but just not at his best when he normally can score 20+ league goals. On the other hand, I can still see RVP scored the same or similar amount league goals if you give him either role of striker.
Point taken now?
Oh and also, let's not deluded ourself with those numbers, despite of the numbers, lot of people still think our 12/13 is the worst squad we ever had when we won the league.
Point was always taken. Just rejected thereafter.
You believe that a more rounded striker was better than a goalscoring one, whereas the majority seem to believe that Ruud's superiority in the box more than made up for his lack of silky skills on the ball. Role, schmole. There are all kinds of players and one type isn't necessarily better than others. For example Makelele would be picked ahead of many "all round" CMs by most clubs simply because of how exceptional he was at his role.
Look, I'm not the one who is obsessed on factor. You seem to keep going on about RVPs terrible team mates but are contradicted by the fact that RVP was actually luckier to be part of the team in a more free scoring season as a whole. So he gained despite supposedly suffering and still scored less goals. Presumably because he misses lots of changes. Goals aren't everything. Considering everything, RVN was easily better IMO.
That's because you still don't understand my point. The only reason why I remain to the discussion because I know you still misinterpreted my point. Otherwise, I would have agree and disagree here.
This where you misinterpreted my point.
No, that's not always the case, I never believe such a thing.
Let me give you good example. Tevez is more rounded striker than Ruud but I rated Ruud much higher than Tevez. If Tevez plays in either role, I don't think he would guarantee to produce the same outcome as Ruud playing as a poacher role. RVP is on the other hand would produce the same quality and outcome if he plays in either role. This is why RVP's case is different to any other all rounded striker. Not all of "them" are better than the poacher one.
Your point about Makelele doesn't strengthen your point, it's actually strengthen my point It doesn't make him the best midfielder despite of him being exception at his role. I said it before that Ruud was the most clinical finisher, I have been acknowledge his strength being exceptional at his role.
Look, you were the one who started with these factor things. Anyway, let's take that out of discussion now.
Clearly you don't understand my point. The terrible team mates is just a reference of how we played differently in 12/13 & 02/03 season. My point to use it as reference is that to give you an idea that RVP can play in any type of striker role and can still produce the same or similar outcome. While if Ruud plays in different role, I don't believe it will play his strength and he won't produce the same or similar outcome.
Point taken now finally?
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We probably would have won feck all in that 5 years if Ruud didn't sign for us. The 99 team was past its sell-by date after I think 2001 and needed overhauling, Fergie also wanted to retire. Ruud was a bit like a stop plug solution to extend their longevity and allow us to continue playing the same style. Things started to change after we brought Queiroz on board.
Watching Ruud's goals have really brought back how good he was.
He was unbelievable. So so good.
Rooney is my favourite utd forward, but as out and out goalscorers come - Ruud was immense. A truly world class clinical striker.
Rooney was more complete as a footballer, Ruud knew his job was to score and he done that better than anyone
He was unbelievable. So so good.
Rooney is my favourite utd forward, but as out and out goalscorers come - Ruud was immense. A truly world class clinical striker.
Rooney was more complete as a footballer, Ruud knew his job was to score and he done that better than anyone
That's precisely the point. That "same quality" of RVP (nobody performs at the same level in every role btw) is of a lower quality than the quality Ruud produces in his favorite role (which is how you always play top class players).
No it doesn't strengthen your point. You can't just pretend a countering argument strengthens your case for no apparent reason. RVN wasn't as one dimensional a CF as Makelele was a DM. But the point remains in that they were highly specialised players who were superior to peers who had a more fancy or fluid skillset.
Meh, you're going on about role schmole again and again. If I'm building a team, I pick peak RVN, it's as simple as that. He'll score more goals and perform better in the team that I do build. It's fine if you feel RVPs versatility gives him the edge. I value that as a trait but believe RVP was too exceptional in the box and hence disagree.
Your view is fine, but I dont think its correct. IMO Ruud was definitely better.
The reason we didn't win more was never down to Ruud though. The defenders and goalkeeper were what let us down you can never put the disappointment of that period to the player who did his job to the absolute best possible. Its not his fault if bartez or Carroll drop clangers in the biggest games.
Do you actually really believe that RVP 12/13 wouldn't score 20+ league goals in 02/03 season squad by playing in the same role as Ruud?
Or
You are just taking the piss by ignoring my point this whole time & making it sounds like I said he will perform the exact same when I had said before that RVP would still produced the 20+ league goals is what I meant by same or similar level if he plays in that 02/03 squad, while Ruud wouldn't score 20+ league goals if he plays in RVP's 12/13 team.
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This.
Unlucky not to win more trophies with United due to our problems at the back and of course ageing/past their prime for some of our important players back then.
But Ruud in his prime was arguably the best CF in the world.
You're getting awfully worked by others disagreeing with you.
I'm saying that RVN was the better striker. I'd prefer him in either team.
If you are comparing two seasons - Ruud wins hands down! You need to look at total goals scored, not just the ones scored in the league. 44 fecking goals- No one has scored that many while playing for an English club - Not even Henry or Ronaldo or Aguero or anyone!
As far as Ruud's hypothetical tally in 12/13 is concerned - have a look at his goals. If there was ever a scramble in the penalty box, Ruud was at the end of it, rebound after a shot, Ruud was the 1st one to reach the lose ball. Add to that defences were much weaker that season as compared to 02/03.
No one's saying that Ruud would have scored some of the goals RVP did, but he would have scored equal, if not more goals than RVP did that season because of how he carried out his game
The issue here is not about being disagree with me. I get it you rated Ruud higher mainly because of the number of goals he scored, you have right to have that type of idea but don't misinterpreted of the reason why I rated RVP higher.
The reason I used PL is because we only won league title. League games based on week in week out. It's fair to see how both of them contributed in our winning league title and stats can be found if we want to use it for discussion.
In 02/03 season, Giggs had 14 league assists, Beckham had 9 league assists, Ole had 7 league assists, Silvertre had 7 assists. The 12/13 season was considered to be our worst squad of winning the league. Both RVP & Rooney were the leaders of the assist (10 each). None hit anything 7 or above assist.
It's not hypothetical if you know how the manager get the best out of Ruud. That 02/03 team is simply full of players that can create chances for Ruud. You replaced RVP with Ruud on the 12/13 team, I believe he'll struggle to score 20+ league goals as you won't get the best out of Ruud. You replaced Ruud with RVP in 02/03, I believe he'll still score 20+ league as you'll still get the best out of him.
What are you even on about. Not every assist they made was for Ruud. We scored 86 goals in 2012/13 and 74 in 2002/03. So, surely your hypothesis that our side was poor is incorrect.Either that or the quality of the league was on decline.
Ruud's 25 league goals (and I still have no idea why we shoudln't include goals in all competitions as they literally played in the same competitions) came in a season where only 1000 goals were scored. Going back 2 seasons and forward 2 seasons, and you'd notice the average number of goals scored in a season then by all teams combined was 996! Fast forward ten years, and 2012/13 saw 1063 goals combined. Average goals scored in a season from 2010/11-2014/15 was 1043.8!
Simply put, if you assign value to every goal, RVN's goals were more valuable!
I'm stunned how you still don't get it. My point about the assist is to tell you that in 02/03 we have good number of creative players who created chances for our team which suits Ruud's style himself. While in 12/13 who do we got? Majority our chances of that 86 goals were created by both RVP himself & Rooney alone.
I'm also in shocked how you couldn't see that our 12/13 squad was the worst squad of winning the league, how is this even debatable or even hypothesis. Do we need to make comparison of each players just to get it through you?
I'm not really sure how you can just based on what happened in the last 10 years to what happened in the previous season, somehow made a conclusion that Ruud's goals were more valuable. If Ruud has the 02/03 team and play in competition of nowdays or 12/13 season, I'll believe that he could score more based on your hypothesis. However, if he has the 12/13 team instead of 02/03, it will not be the case.
The fact RVP was our top scorer with 26 league goals & 10 league assists sums up how he almost single handily carry the whole team or at least the attackers & the creativity in the team. Ruud is just not a type of striker who will do both create chances for his team mate & himself for the whole season. He's going to be frustrated & moaning about lack of creativity if he's in that 12/13 team instead of RVP.
you admit “The 12/13 season was considered to be our worst squad of winning the league.”
which in turn suggests the league was generally weaker...how would we win it otherwise. So by your own admission Ruud was playing against higher calibre teams.
you keep talking about everyone missing your point. Quite simply, I just don’t think people can take your point seriously because you rate RVP higher. RVP was a fine player. But better than Ruud...it really is a non starter.
Clearly I have already said this before. RVP was our top scorer with 26 league goals & 10 league assists sums up how he almost single handily carry the whole team or at least the attackers & the creativity in the team to win the league.
On the other hand, Ruud is just not the same type of striker who will do both create chances for his team mate & himself for the whole season. He's going to be frustrated & moaning about lack of creativity if he's in that 12/13 team instead of RVP.
If Ruud plays in that what you suggested as weaker league with 02/03 team, without a doubt, I can agree with you he'll smash it for sure. But that's not the case if he plays with 12/13 team, because what we got in 12/13 team is not comparable to 02/03 team. 12/13 lacks creativity to get the best out of him.
While as for RVP. You play him with a team that either lack of creative players or lot of creative players, we'll still be able to get the best out of him.
I'm lost. Are people saying RVP was a better striker than RVN? Cause if so they're wrong.
Both great players, but Ruud was the best striker in the world for a time. I'm not sure anyone has accused RVP of that?
Both great players, but Ruud was the best striker in the world for a time. I'm not sure anyone has accused RVP of that?
Mate I give up! It's like arguing against a recorded message
Everyone gets your rocket science point.