Ruud Van Nistelrooy

Foxbatt said:
Thank you very much for posting this. Veron was unplayable during this tour. And then SAF sold him. I was gutted.
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Veron was itching for a move. Its was all of his and his agents doing,as his agent was shopping Veron around Europe when we were in the US.

SAF wanted to keep him but Veron had his heart set on leaving.
From what I remember SAF was quite p*ssed off with the attitude from Veron and his agent during that period.
 
Pughnichi said:
Oh my days. RVP ahead of Ruud!! This is a wind up right?...

you suggest Ruud can’t create his own. Errrm Fulham.
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First of all, this is what I said: "Ruud needs someone who can provide him the service to perform at best"

Is that it? One goal? If that's how you judge player at best then you got lot to learn man.
 
L1nk said:
Best striker we've had yes, unfortunately he came to us in a period where we had a lot of crap behind him, considering his record he should have had far more trophies with us than he actually got.
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The reason we didn't win many trophies with him was to accommodate him our style was just too predictable .

In big games teams marked him out of the game and we had no answer .

With Ruud in the side we had one way of playing and if he didn't score we were in trouble
 
FrankDrebin said:
Veron was itching for a move. Its was all of his and his agents doing,as his agent was shopping Veron around Europe when we were in the US.

SAF wanted to keep him but Veron had his heart set on leaving.
From what I remember SAF was quite p*ssed off with the attitude from Veron and his agent during that period.
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Interesting, I didn’t know that.
 
lsd said:
The reason we didn't win many trophies with him was to accommodate him our style was just too predictable .

In big games teams marked him out of the game and we had no answer .

With Ruud in the side we had one way of playing and if he didn't score we were in trouble
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Good point.
That's why Saha was brought back into the team so we could play another way. Ruud was pissed off with that. Ruud was also dropped for the league cup final win over Wigan.
 
For the record, Ruud was also very good at international level (better than RVP, for example) and obviously had 2 good years at Real.
lsd said:
The reason we didn't win many trophies with him was to accommodate him our style was just too predictable .

In big games teams marked him out of the game and we had no answer .

With Ruud in the side we had one way of playing and if he didn't score we were in trouble
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Think this far oversimplifies it and ignores how many goals he scored in big games. His CL record with us was incredible. He also scored 33 goals taking Madrid to the title his first season there.

We had a real lack of creativity for those latter years of his time with us. And a real lack of goals from other sources. If teams were sticking three on him to negate his efficacy, another forward or wide player should have stepped up, but we were really in between teams. Ronaldo was ridiculously inconsistent at that stage, Giggs had a relatively poor few years...we just weren't that good.
 
Loved Ruud, extraordinary finisher, such was his decision making and accuracy of shot he regularly made half chances look like sitters, you just never expected him to miss.

I don't even remember a shallow period for him with us. Even the best strikers can sometimes get stuck and go 6-7 games without a goal (rvp in his wonder season did with us I think) but I genuinely cant think of a time ruud was in a drought - no doubt someone will tell me.

The chest and volley after Rooneys run against Charlton is one of my favourite goals :drool:
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
First of all, this is what I said: "Ruud needs someone who can provide him the service to perform at best"

Is that it? One goal? If that's how you judge player at best then you got lot to learn man.
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Ruud was widely known as a poacher, even labelled a tap in artist at times, which would seem to contradict that he needed the likes of Becks to be at his best. Just look at his Fulham and Arsenal goals. All created by his own play. Did he leverage great crossing ? Of course. Would he be a lesser player without it ? Absolutely not, given that he was dropping big numbers at PSV as well as his early Madrid career without the help of Becks, Scholes, or Giggs.
 
Beachryan said:
For the record, Ruud was also very good at international level (better than RVP, for example) and obviously had 2 good years at Real.

Think this far oversimplifies it and ignores how many goals he scored in big games. His CL record with us was incredible. He also scored 33 goals taking Madrid to the title his first season there.

We had a real lack of creativity for those latter years of his time with us. And a real lack of goals from other sources. If teams were sticking three on him to negate his efficacy, another forward or wide player should have stepped up, but we were really in between teams. Ronaldo was ridiculously inconsistent at that stage, Giggs had a relatively poor few years...we just weren't that good.
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Sorry but the facts speak for themselves . Once he went out of the team we played better football . Its crazy but true . I wish we had won more with him and he certainly deserved more medals

However we needed a more mobile striker who was better on the ball to bring out the best in Rooney and Ronaldo . That's why Fergie bought Saha and went with him and it paid off which is all that matters
 
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Followed Andy Cole, who had a good record for us, and absolutely wellied his best totals into dodge.
thepolice123 said:
The best finisher I've seen. I still remember his two goals against Deportivo from half chances.



And his improvised toe poke finish against Juventus:



Tried that move all the time in Winning Eleven. :lol:
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Om another note, in that first clip, what the bloody hell are Barthez and Brown doing at 1.25! Unbelievable give away.
 
Raoul said:
Ruud was widely known as a poacher, even labelled a tap in artist at times, which would seem to contradict that he needed the likes of Becks to be at his best. Just look at his Fulham and Arsenal goals. All created by his own play. Did he leverage great crossing ? Of course. Would he be a lesser player without it ? Absolutely not, given that he was dropping big numbers at PSV as well as his early Madrid career without the help of Becks, Scholes, or Giggs.
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Basel away, Depor at home, WHU at home. He made plenty of goals for himself. He was lethal. That said RVP was more aesthetically pleasing and perhaps a better all round footballers but Ruud had a crazy never say die attitude. It's a shame he didn't play in a better United team. As for RVP sadly he should've been at OT a lot earlier. He was always my fav non United player.
 
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lsd said:
Sorry but the facts speak for themselves . Once he went out of the team we played better football . Its crazy but true . I wish we had won more with him and he certainly deserved more medals

However we needed a more mobile striker who was better on the ball to bring out the best in Rooney and Ronaldo . That's why Fergie bought Saha and went with him and it paid off which is all that matters
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He didn't even want to be at OT...clearly lost his love for the club. But for three seasons he was genuinely great.
 
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Spoony said:
Basel away, Depor at home, WHU at home. He made plenty of goals for himself. He was lethal. That said RVP was more aesthetically pleasing and perhaps a better all round footballers but Ruud had a crazy never say die attitude. It's shame he didn't play in a better United team. As for RVP sadly he should've been at OT a lot earlier. He was always my fav non United player.
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Definitely agree that RvP was more aesthetically pleasing. But if I were given the option between peak Ruud or peak RvP, it would be Ruud all day long. Everytime he got the ball near the box I felt like there was a good chance he might score.
 
Raoul said:
Ruud was widely known as a poacher, even labelled a tap in artist at times, which would seem to contradict that he needed the likes of Becks to be at his best. Just look at his Fulham and Arsenal goals. All created by his own play. Did he leverage great crossing ? Of course. Would he be a lesser player without it ? Absolutely not, given that he was dropping big numbers at PSV as well as his early Madrid career without the help of Becks, Scholes, or Giggs.
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I'm not sure what are you trying to make a point here because calling him to be widely known as a poacher basically strengthen my point that he is more a finisher rather than a complete striker. Thus why he's not our best striker, he's our best finisher.

I never say he needs Beckham at his best. But I said that he needs a service to get the best out of him. I used Beckham because he is an example of service provider. Better service provider will make him even better striker. You play with deadwood with RVP, he can still somehow find a way to perform, but if you play deadwood with Ruud, what do you think?

He never dropped his number at PSV, he maintained them for two season almost equally. At his 3rd season, he hit injury which he missed the whole season. That was also the season where we were supposed to sign him but had to delayed due to injury.

He scored 25 league goals in 06/07 with Real when they had Beckham. As soon as Becham left, replaced by Robben and we are all know what type of player Robben is, Ruud's number are dropped to 16 league goals in 07/08.

Your PSV & Real point aren't helping you to strengthen your point at all. It goes the opposite.
 
Giggs-Scholes-Keane-Beckham/Ronaldo isn't get all that much love....and Rooney off him for a while.

Unfortunately he probably did come slightly too late, the gaming was moving on from him not long after he came here, and no surprise we struggled for a bit - despite smashing up earlier stages in the CL.... and then even less surprising that Fergie has his true second almost instantly after selling him.

Though reasonable if he went with a genuine team that dropped Scholes further back that he proved he was capable of doing later on into a 3.... it probably would of worked better for trophies. Veron was just never meant to happen more than likely forcing Fergies hand into sticking to a slightly more dated system.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
I'm not sure what are you trying to make a point here because calling him to be widely known as a poacher basically strengthen my point that he is more a finisher rather than a complete striker. Thus why he's not our best striker, he's our best finisher.

I never say he needs Beckham at his best. But I said that he needs a service to get the best out of him. You play with deadwood with RVP, he can still somehow find a way to perform, but if you play deadwood with Ruud, what do you think?

He never dropped his number at PSV, he maintained them for two season almost equally. At his 3rd season, he hit injury which he missed the whole season. That was also the season where we were supposed to sign him but had to delayed due to injury.

He scored 25 league goals in 06/07 with Real when they had Beckham. As soon as Becham left, replaced by Robben and we are all know what type of player Robben is, Ruud's number are dropped to 16 league goals in 07/08.

Your PSV & Real point aren't helping you to strengthen your point at all. It goes the opposite.
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I think he was a complete striker - he scored from virtually every position on the pitch including runs from near the half way line.

Also, the 16 league goals you cite were in a shortened season where he only played 24 league games.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
You just said you can’t merely pick up numbers like for like and compare them to those from different decade and yet you compared the number of league goals scored & points in those two seasons. I think it’s fair to say playing with better team mate can make the players perform better as well especially for a striker like Ruud’s type.
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Yes because I was contradicting your point. If RVP had lesser players around him then it definitely didn't translate into the goals the team scored or the chances created which were higher than they were in a season when we had better personnel. Because football is funny that way. And there are many factors at play such as how open the games were and how weak opposing defences were. My point is that one has to consider all these factors rather than just a single (either goals or quality of supporting cast) one.

My personal view is that RVN clearly hit a higher level. A player having a wider skillset (RVP) does not necessarily mean a better player. RVP was more creative and better from outside the box. But RVN was the man, uptop. He was absolutely incredible in the box - all time great level qualities. And his all round game was underrated - in this what I liked was how decisive he was. He didn't feck about with what he wasn't good at. And hence he was clinical in all aspects IMO. Also had an edge to him which I think RVP had less off. All in all, I'd always pick RVP whether it's for a PL title race, or a big CL final.
 
lsd said:
Sorry but the facts speak for themselves . Once he went out of the team we played better football . Its crazy but true . I wish we had won more with him and he certainly deserved more medals

However we needed a more mobile striker who was better on the ball to bring out the best in Rooney and Ronaldo . That's why Fergie bought Saha and went with him and it paid off which is all that matters
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Given Saha barely managed 25 games a season with us, I find it hard to believe we wouldn't have been better with Ruud AND and maturing Ronaldo and Rooney. We'll never know, but the team getting better certainly wasn't just down to Ruud leaving.
 
Along with Cantona and Rooney, my favourite Utd striker.

Genuine legend.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Did I misinterpret it? The poster said RVP in that season was better than Ruud and then you brought up the 40+ goals. That’s where I decided to come out with my initial post. Oh either way, Cantona is still better than Ruud as a striker, if I have a 433 formation for United XI, I would had placed him over Ruud in that striker role, wouldn’t you?
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In 433? No way. Cantona needed a partner up there to feed balls to. And wasn't the type to make lung busting runs into the middle for a cross.
 
Raoul said:
I think he was a complete striker - he scored from virtually every position on the pitch including runs from near the half way line.

Also, the 16 league goals you cite were in a shortened season where he only played 24 league games.
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I never say he's a limited striker, I only said RVP is more complete one than Ruud. He is well known as poacher because that's the role to get the best out of him, it doesn't mean he can't be all round striker but that's not going to make him playing at his best. You should know the reason why he's complaining about playing with someone like Cristiano's style.

Let me ask you question here, and let me hear your thought.

If we swap RVP 12/13 & Ruud 02/03, what do you think the outcome will become? This is what I believe:

If we put RVP 2012/2013 season to 2002/2003 squad instead of Ruud I do believe RVP would at least still score the same amount of goals that he did in 12/13 season and can be likely more. However, If we put Ruud 2002/2003 season to 2012/2013 squad, I doubt he would score the same amount of goals, I think he will score around 15-17 league goals. Is it good/decent number? Yes, but is it what you called the best? No.

You see where my point goes now? Ruud is still a good all round striker but I doubt he can score 20+ league goals in a high level league like EPL if we make him play like a complete striker rather than a poacher. While RVP, he can score 20+ league goals whether you play him like a complete striker or a poacher.
 
I would put RVN as our number 1 striker since Cantona.

Im not sure why we didn't win more with him. I think swap Silvestre for Vidic and Bartez for VDS and we probably would have
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Yes because I was contradicting your point. If RVP had lesser players around him then it definitely didn't translate into the goals the team scored or the chances created which were higher than they were in a season when we had better personnel. Because football is funny that way. And there are many factors at play such as how open the games were and how weak opposing defences were. My point is that one has to consider all these factors rather than just a single (either goals or quality of supporting cast) one.

My personal view is that RVN clearly hit a higher level. A player having a wider skillset (RVP) does not necessarily mean a better player. RVP was more creative and better from outside the box. But RVN was the man, uptop. He was absolutely incredible in the box - all time great level qualities. And his all round game was underrated - in this what I liked was how decisive he was. He didn't feck about with what he wasn't good at. And hence he was clinical in all aspects IMO. Also had an edge to him which I think RVP had less off. All in all, I'd always pick RVP whether it's for a PL title race, or a big CL final.
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You are mentioning about considering all the factors and yet you don't even consider how both players play and how to make them produce top or world class performance in a season.

Ruud is still a good all round striker but I doubt he can score 20+ league goals in a high level league like EPL if we make him play like a complete striker rather than a poacher. While RVP, he can score 20+ league goals whether you play him like a complete striker or a poacher. This is where the word "better" comes from.

Same question that I asked to Raoul and I'll ask the same to you as I want to know what your thought about it.

If RVP 12/13 plays in 02/03 squad, do you think he will score the same/similar amount of league goals as he did in 12/13?
My answer for this. Yes he will. At least he'll score 20+ league goals.

If Ruud 02/03 plays in 12/13 squad, do you think he will score the same/similar amount of league goals as he did in 02/03?
My answer for this. No he won't. I think he will score around 15-17 league goals.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
I never say he's a limited striker, I only said RVP is more complete one than Ruud. He is well known as poacher because that's the role to get the best out of him, it doesn't mean he can't be all round striker but that's not going to make him playing at his best. You should know the reason why he's complaining about playing with someone like Cristiano's style.

Let me ask you question here, and let me hear your thought.

If we swap RVP 12/13 & Ruud 02/03, what do you think the outcome will become? This is what I believe:

If we put RVP 2012/2013 season to 2002/2003 squad instead of Ruud I do believe RVP would at least still score the same amount of goals that he did in 12/13 season and can be likely more. However, If we put Ruud 2002/2003 season to 2012/2013 squad, I doubt he would score the same amount of goals, I think he will score around 15-17 league goals. Is it good/decent number? Yes, but is it what you called the best? No.

You see where my point goes now? Ruud is still a good all round striker but I doubt he can score 20+ league goals in a high level league like EPL if we make him play like a complete striker rather than a poacher. While RVP, he can score 20+ league goals whether you play him like a complete striker or a poacher.
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Ruud scored 44 goals in 2002-03 season ffs. No way RVP would've scored that many. Put Ruud in 2012-13 season, he may not have scored some of the goals that RVP scored, but hell he'd have been at the end of every loose ball and around as many goals as RVP scored that season.
Secondly, early 2000s was an era where teams played to not concede. Italian teams were at their dominant best, you had GOAT level defenders and you didn't find players scoring at ridiculous rates that you see now. Teams that won the league scored 75-85 goals not 100+ goals! As much as I love RVP, I'd put RVN a tier above him when it comes to goalscoring
 
mancan92 said:
In 433? No way. Cantona needed a partner up there to feed balls to. And wasn't the type to make lung busting runs into the middle for a cross.
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That's more of a traditional where manager often played 422 back in the day. Surely in 433, you want more of a all round striker like Cantona. Especially if your wide attackers are Ronaldo & Best, I wouldn't even dare to put Ruud with the other two together.
 
anant said:
Ruud scored 44 goals in 2002-03 season ffs. No way RVP would've scored that many. Put Ruud in 2012-13 season, he may not have scored some of the goals that RVP scored, but hell he'd have been at the end of every loose ball and around as many goals as RVP scored that season.
Secondly, early 2000s was an era where teams played to not concede. Italian teams were at their dominant best, you had GOAT level defenders and you didn't find players scoring at ridiculous rates that you see now. Teams that won the league scored 75-85 goals not 100+ goals! As much as I love RVP, I'd put RVN a tier above him when it comes to goalscoring
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Ruud scored 25 league goals while RVP scored 26 league goals in those season. You are ignoring it just because the other scored more in other competition.

Either way, you are still missing the point. Ruud is still a good all round striker but I doubt he can score 20+ league goals in a high level league like EPL if we make him play like a complete striker rather than a poacher. While RVP, he can score 20+ league goals whether you play him like a complete striker or a poacher.

You are expecting Ruud to score closed to 26 league goals with Cleverley, Welbeck, off form Valencia, Ashley & 38 years old Giggs to provide him the service in the box? No way he would've score that many with those players. I can still see RVP scored 25 / 26 league goals with Beckham, Giggs & Scholes.
 
01/02 RVN 23 from 87 team goals
02/03 RVN 25 from 74 team goals
11/12 RVP 30 from 74 team goals(Arse)
12/13 RVP 26 from 86 team goals

Group stages aren't the thumping grounds they once were either. I'd side with the RVP argument, but he couldn't stay fit.... but that 2 and a half year run he had, absolutely mint player. Finally become Henry's replacement before winning the title
 
Beachryan said:
Given Saha barely managed 25 games a season with us, I find it hard to believe we wouldn't have been better with Ruud AND and maturing Ronaldo and Rooney. We'll never know, but the team getting better certainly wasn't just down to Ruud leaving.
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We do know and Fergie knew . There's not a chance Rooney and Ronaldo would have flourished with Ruud in the team ? Their style of play just would not have meshed . They needed to play quicker they needed a forward they could interchange with and as great as Ruud was that wasn't his game
 
Ruud was brilliant. So consistent and reliable and an absolute predator. I wish he'd have won more at the club. He was about as good as anyone at the club during his time but his time 2001-2006 we won just one league and nothing in Europe and the three years before and after we did three back-to-back leagues and a European Cup. One of those odd things since nobody ever complained about his output or quality.
 
lsd said:
We do know and Fergie knew . There's not a chance Rooney and Ronaldo would have flourished with Ruud in the team ? Their style of play just would not have meshed . They needed to play quicker they needed a forward they could interchange with and as great as Ruud was that wasn't his game
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Great as all three are, I think Fergie saw Saha as being a better foil for those two and took that punt given Saha's link up play and speed.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Ruud scored 25 league goals while RVP scored 26 league goals in those season. You are ignoring it just because the other scored more in other competition.

Either way, you are still missing the point. Ruud is still a good all round striker but I doubt he can score 20+ league goals in a high level league like EPL if we make him play like a complete striker rather than a poacher. While RVP, he can score 20+ league goals whether you play him like a complete striker or a poacher.

You are expecting Ruud to score closed to 26 league goals with Cleverley, Welbeck, off form Valencia, Ashley & 38 years old Giggs to provide him the service in the box? No way he would've score that many with those players. I can still see RVP scored 25 / 26 league goals with Beckham, Giggs & Scholes.
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If you want to go to that level of detail then RVP played 38 games, RVN- 34. No one's doubting RVP's ability (he was better in certain tings, and no one is denying that), but if you want to compare goalscoring Ruud wins every single time.

As far as the support thing is concerned, Ruud is one of just 2 players (IIRC) to have won Top goalscorer award in 3 major European leagues! Additionally, he won the top goalscorer award in CL thrice! The 44 goals across all competitions he scored that season has not been replicated by any player in this league since.
 
lsd said:
The reason we didn't win many trophies with him was to accommodate him our style was just too predictable .

In big games teams marked him out of the game and we had no answer .

With Ruud in the side we had one way of playing and if he didn't score we were in trouble
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Don't agree with that. Our team clearly aged during that period and the depth we had were of a lower quality. Due to the increased age we also had more injuries. We started having the like of Bellion and Djemba Djemba behind him. Beckham left, Keane was aging. Giggs was not as dynamic as he was prior. Scholes was the only one who maintained his level. Added to that, our defence got a lot worse as we lost Irwin and took time replacing Stam and finding a capable partner for Rio. Rooney and Ronaldo then had initial growing pains and Saha could not stay consistently fit.

We had to shift from Ruud as the style of the team changed and Saha, who was younger, suited it more than Ruud. In addition, Rooney and Ronaldo become priority and Ruud did not match their style or personality. It's that simple. Nothing to do with Ruud not being able to play in a capable team.
 
rcoobc said:
I would put RVN as our number 1 striker since Cantona.

Im not sure why we didn't win more with him. I think swap Silvestre for Vidic and Bartez for VDS and we probably would have
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Was Cantona really a striker? I see him as an attacking midfielder.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Ruud scored 25 league goals while RVP scored 26 league goals in those season. You are ignoring it just because the other scored more in other competition.

Either way, you are still missing the point. Ruud is still a good all round striker but I doubt he can score 20+ league goals in a high level league like EPL if we make him play like a complete striker rather than a poacher. While RVP, he can score 20+ league goals whether you play him like a complete striker or a poacher.

You are expecting Ruud to score closed to 26 league goals with Cleverley, Welbeck, off form Valencia, Ashley & 38 years old Giggs to provide him the service in the box? No way he would've score that many with those players. I can still see RVP scored 25 / 26 league goals with Beckham, Giggs & Scholes.
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:lol:
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Nice. Another newbie with poor quality of control post. If you got nothing to say, don't just make plain pointless post.
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Well done, the newbie treatment. How possibly can a newbie have any football intelligence. In actual fact I just couldn’t be bothered getting into a war of words with someone who feels the need to bold and exclaim.

My opinion is based on Ruud scoring 150 goals in 219 games and not at all relying on the brilliance of others to be at his best. There’s a strong argument for others relying on Ruud to increase their key contributions because at his best he could do things that were quite unbelievable.

RVP had one good season to bring home the title. But let’s not kid ourselves, the league that year was as weak at it has been for a very long time. He looked disinterested when Moyes came and it was a false dawn when many thought he could rekindle his previous form under LVG.

Ruud gets in ahead of RVP every time.
 
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tjb said:
Don't agree with that. Our team clearly aged during that period and the depth we had were of a lower quality. Due to the increased age we also had more injuries. We started having the like of Bellion and Djemba Djemba behind him. Beckham left, Keane was aging. Giggs was not as dynamic as he was prior. Scholes was the only one who maintained his level. Added to that, our defence got a lot worse as we lost Irwin and took time replacing Stam and finding a capable partner for Rio. Rooney and Ronaldo then had initial growing pains and Saha could not stay consistently fit.

We had to shift from Ruud as the style of the team changed and Saha, who was younger, suited it more than Ruud. In addition, Rooney and Ronaldo become priority and Ruud did not match their style or personality. It's that simple. Nothing to do with Ruud not being able to play in a capable team.
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This is a myth Bellion and Djemba played a dozen games at best and most were in cup ties .

Ruud was not playing 200 games with those two behind him or any other random squad player you want to name .

Beckham was there for peak Ruud same as Keane , Scholes ,Giggs and co .

For whatever reason it did not transfer to great football and trophies . It's really nothing to with Ruud's ability but his style meant we played a different way to get the best from him which we did .
 
Yes and maybe yes. The best I've seen at United.

His goal against Fulham is the perfect RVN goal. So selfish and clinical. Like he just had 1 thing in mind. His last two touches seem like one - brilliance. I agree RVN > RVP.

I also see now why he despised Ronaldo. A person so focused on scoring couldn't be arsed with showboating or taking chances himself when he was in a better position.
 
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