Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[Rajma]

i agree, but the fact that you agree with finkelstein here tells you all you need to know about amnesty's independence because you'd be unlikely to agree with him on russia's invasion of ukraine. in fact, you'd conclude that he was in the pocket of the kremlin or a putin propagandist much faster than you'd say the same about amnesty. which demonstrates that this is not an anti-ukrainian agenda but a systemic constant in amnesty's reporting and methodology.

I don’t know the guy but he well could be, one thing doesn’t necessarily prove anything. If he fails to be consistent then that raises serious concerns about his motives.

 

[neverdie]

I don’t know the guy but he well could be, one thing doesn’t necessarily prove anything. If he fails to be consistent then that raises serious concerns about his impartiality.

he isn't. for example israel demonized amnesty over the apartheid conclusion. finkelstein has no problems with that report. russia have denounced amnesty for their reporting on russian warcrimes. ukraine has no problems with those reports. amnesty is typically more consistent and more impartial than the people who are taking entrenched political sides. it's their impartiality that infuriates everyone, not their partisanship.

 

[Zehner]

i agree, but the fact that you agree with finkelstein here tells you all you need to know about amnesty's independence because you'd be unlikely to agree with him on russia's invasion of ukraine. in fact, you'd conclude that he was in the pocket of the kremlin or a putin propagandist much faster than you'd say the same about amnesty. which demonstrates that this is not an anti-ukrainian agenda but a systemic constant in amnesty's reporting and methodology.

Can't it be both? I think the borders are blurring. I'm fully convinced there are enough people within Amnesty who are buying into Russian propaganda but that doesn't mean that this is the (sole) motivation behind this report. Lots of left leaning people are very criticital with the West and it's actions as well as military. They like to point out double standards and possibly they believe when they criticize Russia, they also have to criticize Ukraine in some sort. They believe this is what objectivity means but get the proportions wrong.

And that's ignoring the fact that the report apparently lacks the necessary insights about warfare. In the end, they're just supporting the Kremlin in its quest to divide Western society. And having spoken to people who are into conspiracy theories and love to feel ahead of their social circle by swimming against the throne, trust me, it works. There are so many who'll tell you that you are a naive idiot for believing everything the Western media claims and that Ukraine and NATO is evil, too, and they will feel confirmed now.

 

[Rajma]

Can't it be both? I think the borders are blurring. I'm fully convinced there are enough people within Amnesty who are buying into Russian propaganda but that doesn't mean that this is the (sole) motivation behind this report. Lots of left leaning people are very criticital with the West and it's actions as well as military. They like to point out double standards and possibly they believe when they criticize Russia, they also have to criticize Ukraine in some sort. They believe this is what objectivity means but get the proportions wrong.

And that's ignoring the fact that the report apparently lacks the necessary insights about warfare. In the end, they're just supporting the Kremlin in its quest to divide Western society. And having spoken to people who are into conspiracy theories and love to feel ahead of their social circle by swimming against the throne, trust me, it works. There are so many who'll tell you that you are a naive idiot for believing everything the Western media claims and that Ukraine and NATO is evil, too, and they will feel confirmed now.

Well put.

 

[Rajma]

he isn't. for example israel demonized amnesty over the apartheid conclusion. finkelstein has no problems with that report. russia have denounced amnesty for their reporting on russian warcrimes. ukraine has no problems with those reports. amnesty is typically more consistent and more impartial than the people who are taking entrenched political sides. it's their impartiality that infuriates everyone, not their partisanship.

You still disregard the proportionality aspect now, you can’t call yourself impartial in that case and you gonna get rightly called out as a result. That’s not how impartiality works.

 

[neverdie]

They believe this is what objectivity means but get the proportions wrong.

And that's ignoring the fact that the report apparently lacks the necessary insights about warfare. In the end, they're just supporting the Kremlin in its quest to divide Western society.

that's finkelstein's exact argument about amnesty's report on hamas in gaza. he concluded israeli propaganda. you all conclude russian propaganda.

i think it's much more simple. technically amnesty were correct in their criticism of hamas but it was felt to be propaganda because what else are you supposed to do in gaza? everywhere is a civilian area. the same thing is now playing out in ukraine. when it's ubran warfare, what do you do? it's still technically correct but it infuriates people because they feel amnesty should take an editorial side which they have always refused to do. if they do that it compromises them. all human rights orgs have said it over and over. states love us one day and despise us the next. that's usually a good sign that you're doing your job right even if i personally don't like what you're saying because i think it should be more political than it is.

 

[Zehner]

that's finkelstein's exact argument about amnesty's report on hamas in gaza. he concluded israeli propaganda. you all conclude russian propaganda.

What exactly should be Israeli propaganda?

 

[neverdie]

What exactly should be Israeli propaganda?

the lack of proportionality in amnesty's report on gaza. they criticised the use of civilian areas but as has been pointed out gaza is the world's most densely populated civilian area. there is no non-civilian land you can go and defend yourself. the same will be true in ukraine if the fighting moves into cities which it has. the report isn't wrong it just lacks proportionality. finkelstein wants them to say "this all happens but what else can you do?" and the ukrainian regime will want them to say roughly the same thing. the point is that they aren't israeli or russian mouthpieces as each of those states will tell you if you look through amnesty's history of condemning each, and recently, too.

 

[Raoul]

the lack of proportionality in amnesty's report on gaza. they criticised the use of civilian areas but as has been pointed out gaza is the world's most densely populated civilian area. there is no non-civilian land you can go and defend yourself. the same will be true in ukraine if the fighting moves into cities which it has. the report isn't wrong it just lacks proportionality. finkelstein wants them to say "this all happens but what else can you do?" and the ukrainian regime will want them to say roughly the same thing. the point is that they aren't israeli or russian mouthpieces as each of those states will tell you if you look through amnesty's history of condemning each, and recently, too.

Except that Ukraine isn't densely populated at all, even in its most populated areas (which is not where the fighting currently is in most places). A better example would be Mosul or Fallujah.

 

[Zehner]

the lack of proportionality in amnesty's report on gaza. they criticised the use of civilian areas but as has been pointed out gaza is the world's most densely populated civilian area. there is no non-civilian land you can go and defend yourself. the same will be true in ukraine if the fighting moves into cities which it has. the report isn't wrong it just lacks proportionality. finkelstein wants them to say "this all happens but what else can you do?" and the ukrainian regime will want them to say roughly the same thing. the point is that they aren't israeli or russian mouthpieces as each of those states will tell you if you look through amnesty's history of condemning each, and recently, too.

But that's not what I meant. By publishing this report, Ukrainian violations of the Genever Conventions or similar rule sets is overrepresented in the public perception. As an analogy, imagine a political TV show that is discussing a controversial topic such as, say, climate change, with five guests. Now, say, 95% of society believe in climate change and only 5% deny it. Still, of his five guests, the host of the show feels obligated to invite at least one who's denying it because he wants togive the opposition a voice, too. But is this correct? In the public perception, suddenly 20% think climate change isn't real, significantly overrepresenting this opinion - and we as humans usually work this way: The more people believe in it, the more likely we are to believe it, too.

The same effect is at work with this report. It is overrepresenting the Ukrainian wrong doings because in order to get the proportionality right, Amnesty would probably have had to publish hundreds or thousands of reports about Russian war crimes before story was covered. In some cases it might have been out of the right intentions (seeing the conflict from different perspectives), in some cases out of the wrong ones (Russian propaganda) but either way, it is harmful.

 

[neverdie]

Except that Ukraine isn't densely populated at all, even in its most populated areas (which is not where the fighting currently is in most places). A better example would be Mosul or Fallujah.

yeah which makes the gaza example more egregious if you follow a consistent logic imo. anyway the russians are using a nuclear power plant to store weapons because the ukrainians can't attack it or everyone dies. did the ukrainians do what amnesty said? i'd be surprised if they didn't. but it's about proportionality.

The same effect is at work with this report. It is overrepresenting the Ukrainian wrong doings because in order to get the proportionality right, Amnesty would probably have had to publish hundreds or thousands of reports about Russian war crimes before story was covered. In some cases it might have been out of the right intentions (seeing the conflict from different perspectives), in some cases out of the wrong ones (Russian propaganda) but either way, it is harmful.

when they publish more reports into russian war crimes as they inevitably will, how can you then turn around and say "it's russian propaganda". their report seems accurate factually which is their job but i understand why it irritates people politically because the same thing has happened many times before. it's the way most human rights orgs tend to work. they aren't perfect but they aren't state propaganda either.

israel calls amnesty a hamas propaganda machine
russia calls amnesty a cia outfit
hamas labels amnesty dangerous and pro-israel
the us calls amnesty reprehensible over gitmo

states work in propaganda for their national interest. they take the "good" reports and make use of them and then smear the same orgs when they publish reports that they don't like. it's always been like this. non state actors like amnesty know this because the situation is nothing new.

 

[Rajma]

Scandalous! Impartial you say? More like Russian shills. @Cheimoon @nimic @dumbo any comments? Or you will take the words of those in the Russian filtration camps as a beacon of a free speech?

 

[the hea]

 

[neverdie]

Scandalous! Impartial you say? More like Russian shills. @Cheimoon @nimic @dumbo any comments? Or you will take the words of those in the Russian filtration camps as a beacon of a free speech?

if you look at human rights methodology you'll see none of this is novel. the organizations are always working at behest of the state they operate within and according to the restrictions put in place. they make allowances for it. same thing happened in iraq during the 90s. and you could find dozens and dozens of examples like that. it's almost a universal principle. for example, the ukrainian forces oversee amnesty in ukraine. does that make their findings of russian warcrimes illegitimate? no. same in palestine. and every other site they've ever done work with some exceptions.

trying to discredit amnesty is not a good look. they do great work all around the world and ukraine has benefited from that in the past and will in the future too.

 

[Gehrman]

Scandalous! Impartial you say? More like Russian shills. @Cheimoon @nimic @dumbo any comments? Or you will take the words of those in the Russian filtration camps as a beacon of a free speech?

How reliable are stratcom considering who they are? But anyway, I havnt followed this discussion much at all.

 

[harms]

I've watched a comment from a Ukrainian human right activist (she isn't with the Amnesty) and she said that the thing that concerned her the most wasn't the report but the press release. In the Amnesty's report the proportion of Russian to Ukrainian crimes was about right but for whatever reason when they've tried to translate that into a shorter form it began to look like there's barely any difference between the two.

 

[Rajma]

How reliable are stratcom considering who they are? But anyway, I havnt followed this discussion much at all.

I mean it’s pretty obvious after they have excluded Ukrainian amnesty team from ‘investigation’.

 

[neverdie]

STOP THE AGGRESSION AND PROTECT CIVILIANS IN UKRAINE

Right now, people in Ukraine are facing a catastrophic human rights crisis. People are dying, including children, and many thousands of lives are at risk. Take action to demand that the Russian authorities stop this act of aggression and protect civilians now.

As the war rages on following Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, we have documented a pattern of crimes committed by Russian forces, including unlawful attacks, wilful killings of civilians, torture, and extrajudicial executions. Take action to demand that the Russian authorities stop this act of aggression and systemic attacks on civilians now.

At 5am on the 24 February, people across Ukraine woke to the news that their country was being invaded by the Russian military. In the middle of the night, Russian tanks rolled into the country and the military attacked from multiple directions.

As the war rages on, the sheer scale of the human rights violations and war crimes is exposed with every passing day. Entire neighbourhoods have been destroyed in places like Borodyanka, through disproportionate and indiscriminate attacks, leaving thousands of people homeless. In towns like Bucha, Andriivka, Zdvyzhivka and Vorzel, our researchers collected evidence and testimony of unlawful killings, including apparent extrajudicial executions. Some victims had their hands tied behind their back, others showed signs of torture. Convoys of civilians fleeing with their children were fired upon.

Russia’s decision to use force against another state without any legal justification has unleashed a catastrophic human rights crisis on the people of Ukraine. It is also having devastating implications on the human rights of many far beyond Ukraine, affecting global food chains and driving high energy prices around the world. The Russian Federation must stop this act of aggression against Ukraine and end the pattern of war crimes. Those responsible for atrocities must be held to account in fair trials. We must use our power in numbers to call for this to stop.
Sign the petition to President Vladimir Putin and demand that Russia stops this act of aggression and systemic attacks on civilians now.

** Your full name, email address and location will not be disclosed to the recipient of the petition.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/petition/russia-stop-the-aggression-and-attacks-on-civilians-in-ukraine/

some previous investigations and reports

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...n-serhiivka-apartment-block-and-beach-resort/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/07/92-ukraine-military-charged-crimes-against-humanity/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...ly-attacking-ukrainian-pow-must-face-justice/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...ar-crime-by-russian-forces-new-investigation/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...ussian-shelling-of-kharkiv-new-investigation/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...or-criticizing-russian-aggression-in-ukraine/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...oners-of-war-from-azovstal-must-be-respected/

again, is this the organization you want to call an "arm of the russian state"? the one that has been criticizing and charging russia with warcrimes since february?

 

[Rajma]

some previous investigations and reports




again, is this the organization you want to call an "arm of the russian state"? the one that has been criticizing and charging russia with warcrimes since february?

It doesn’t change the fact that it makes their most recent publication basically worthless from actual content value perspective yet it creates a lot of damage. For the Russian propaganda you only need one report anyway, money well spent. Either people working there are genuinely stupid for them to be relying on information from filtration camps or from Russian occupied territories in general under full FSB control or are simply corrupt. Both are equally bad in my book.

 

[neverdie]

It doesn’t change the fact that it makes their most recent publication basically worthless from actual content value perspective yet it creates a lot of damage. For the Russian propaganda you only need one report anyway, money well spent.

they aren't russian propaganda. it's just baseless, childish, and pointless to continue that narrative with all the evidence given to the contrary including some on the last page. will the russians use the report of ukrainian wrongdoing the same as the israelis amplified the report of hamas wrongdoing? yes. does it mean the reports are propaganda? no. i see more reputational damage being done by the ukrainian narrative that wants to paint amnesty as propagandists. they should just refute the report as they have and move on.

 

[Rajma]

they aren't russian propaganda. it's just baseless, childish, and pointless to continue that narrative with all the evidence given to the contrary including some on the last page. will the russians use the report of ukrainian wrongdoing the same as the israelis amplified the report of hamas wrongdoing? yes. does it mean the reports are propaganda? no.

Ok, they are highly stupid people then if they decided to press ahead with report based on claims from occupied places under the guidance of pseudo journalist or activists (fsb) in filtration camps? Happy?

 

[Rajma]

 

[Cheimoon]

That guy is talking a lot sense,
they should have published 10 thousand reports on Russia atrocities before committing one to Ukraine for the ratio to be accurate with respect to endangering civilians. I’m not sure it’s a stretch to believe they’re being the influenced by the agents from Israeli or Russian securities services.

Israeli security services? Did you notice that Amnesty published a report where they called Israel's policy towards Arabs and Palestinians apartheid? And the outrage that caused among defenders of the state of Israel? And now you're suggesting they're in Israel's pocket? Wow.

I don't think I need to answer to the rest, this shows you what you're missing regarding Amnesty. (Who I'm not claiming are faultless. I just don't think their faults come from a pro-Russian bias.)

 

[Simbo]

again, is this the organization you want to call an "arm of the russian state"? the one that has been criticizing and charging russia with warcrimes since february?

Your beating a dead horse now, apart from a few initial knee-jerk reactions, I don't think anyone is suggesting Amnesty is an "arm of the russian state".

However, do you think Russia doesn't at least try to infiltrate and manipulate organisations such as this?

 

[Simbo]

Actually in Austria, not Germany.
Ironically rubbing 'free speech' in the faces of her fellow Russians who can't do this kind of thing at home, because of actual fascism.

 

[neverdie]

Your beating a dead horse now, apart from a few initial knee-jerk reactions, I don't think anyone is suggesting Amnesty is an "arm of the russian state".

However, do you think Russia doesn't at least try to infiltrate and manipulate organisations such as this?

the poster linked to a tweet that claimed exactly that. he edited it out though. otherwise i agree.

maybe. perhaps all states see value in it? all i know is all states condemn and praise these organisations selectively, whenever it fits their agenda.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Frosty]

I still cannot believe there are reports of Russia mining a nuclear power plant.

 

[Raoul]

Actually in Austria, not Germany.
Ironically rubbing 'free speech' in the faces of her fellow Russians who can't do this kind of thing at home, because of actual fascism.

She's toast. Only a matter of time before the internet geolocate and hound her into oblivion.

 

[Carolina Red]

She's toast. Only a matter of time before the internet geolocate and hound her into oblivion.

She’s gonna find out the hard way that freedom of speech =/= freedom from consequences

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

Actually in Austria, not Germany.
Ironically rubbing 'free speech' in the faces of her fellow Russians who can't do this kind of thing at home, because of actual fascism.

She better hope to not be in a Martin Scorcese movie because there is always that scene when a random idiot says something wrong and ends up earning quite the beating from the angry protagonist. The random idiot here is that woman.

 

[Cheimoon]

I still cannot believe there are reports of Russia mining a nuclear power plant.

And are actively using it as a base of operations (if I haven't misunderstood that).

I wonder how the soldiers operating from there are feeling about it. It must be so scary to be conducting war right out of a freakin' nuclear plant!

 

[Carolina Red]

And are actively using it as a base of operations (if I haven't misunderstood that).

I wonder how the soldiers operating from there are feeling about it. It must be so scary to be conducting war right out of a freakin' nuclear plant!

I mean, the ones at Chernobyl dug trenches, so who knows?

 

[frostbite]

And are actively using it as a base of operations (if I haven't misunderstood that).

I wonder how the soldiers operating from there are feeling about it. It must be so scary to be conducting war right out of a freakin' nuclear plant!

Nobody cares about them.

That's the huge difference between any Western army and the Russian army. If any Western army used its soldiers the way the Russians do, we'd have a revolution back home. The Russians simply don't care.

(And no, I don't believe that "they don't know". I believe "they don't want to know". )

 

[Gehrman]

She's toast. Only a matter of time before the internet geolocate and hound her into oblivion.

Cancel culture when it's a good thing

 

[Rajma]

I think it has been pretty evident for some time now that the US are holding off from supporting Ukraine too much beyond the means necessary for the stalemate and not Ukrainian offensive. Everyone knows if US really would have gone hard with the military support the conclusion would have been long forgone. I’m really thankful that they stood for Ukraine when European leaders have thrown them under the bus, hopefully, Biden and leadership can still wake up and understand that Putin is more dangerous when he smells weaknesses.

 

[harms]

Actually in Austria, not Germany.
Ironically rubbing 'free speech' in the faces of her fellow Russians who can't do this kind of thing at home, because of actual fascism.

Jesus fecking Christ. How did they not threw her off the bridge right there.

 

[harms]

Obviously he has the right to say anything he wants but that's such a stupid argument. I thought that we've already went past this phase at the very beginning of the war & Zelensky himself openly spoke against it, and yet here we are again — with the likes of Finland, Estonia joining the call.

In a wide-ranging interview with The Washington Post, Zelensky said that “the most important sanctions are to close the borders — because the Russians are taking away someone else’s land.” He said Russians should “live in their own world until they change their philosophy.”

Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin told reporters Monday that she believes issuing tourist visas to Russians should be restricted and called for a European Union-wide ban.
Some critics have argued that banning all Russians would unfairly impact those who have left their country because they disagree with President Vladimir Putin’s government and his decision to attack Ukraine.
Zelensky said such distinctions don’t matter: “Whichever kind of Russian … make them go to Russia.”
“They’ll understand then,” he said. “They’ll say, ‘This [war] has nothing to do with us. The whole population can’t be held responsible, can it?’ It can. The population picked this government and they’re not fighting it, not arguing with it, not shouting at it.”

“Don’t you want this isolation?” Zelensky added, speaking as if he were addressing Russians directly. “You’re telling the whole world that it must live by your rules. Then go and live there. This is the only way to influence Putin.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/08/ukraine-zelensky-interview-ban-russian-travelers/

Stopping Russians from leaving the country benefits only Putin, for whom the full isolation of his people from the West and its influence is the ideal scenario. People who oppose him will get imprisoned, independent journalists won't be able to provide an alternative point of view to a Russian-speaking audience etc.

I keep thinking of Walter Benjamin, who had killed himself because Spain refused to let him through to U.S. and threatened to return him to Nazi-occupied France. On the next day all the people from his group were let through (most likely because of his suicide), yet we had lost one of the most brilliant minds of the XXth century. And the plethora of German internationals that had fled the Third Reich only to continue to fight with Hitler and his regime until the end of the war (like Thomas Mann with his radio addresses). Nah, the Allies should've sent them back to Germany to overthrow Hitler with sticks and stones.

 

[massi83]

Obviously he has the right to say anything he wants but that's such a stupid argument. I thought that we've already went past this phase at the very beginning of the war & Zelensky himself openly spoke against it, and yet here we are again — with the likes of Finland, Estonia joining the call.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/08/ukraine-zelensky-interview-ban-russian-travelers/

Stopping Russians from leaving the country benefits only Putin, for whom the full isolation of his people from the West and its influence is the ideal scenario. People who oppose him will get imprisoned, independent journalists won't be able to provide an alternative point of view to a Russian-speaking audience etc.

I keep thinking of Walter Benjamin, who had killed himself because Spain refused to let him through to U.S. and threatened to return him to Nazi-occupied France. On the next day all the people from his group were let through (most likely because of his suicide), yet we had lost one of the most brilliant minds of the XXth century. And the plethora of German internationals that had fled the Third Reich only to continue to fight with Hitler and his regime until the end of the war (like Thomas Mann with his radio addresses). Nah, the Allies should've sent them back to Germany to overthrow Hitler with sticks and stones.

I'm pretty indifferent about this, but what is the benefit of letting Russians pass through Finland and have a holiday in Italy/France? Pretty much none of the people crossing the border at the moment are people looking to move out of Russia.

 

[Gehrman]

Obviously he has the right to say anything he wants but that's such a stupid argument. I thought that we've already went past this phase at the very beginning of the war & Zelensky himself openly spoke against it, and yet here we are again — with the likes of Finland, Estonia joining the call.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/08/ukraine-zelensky-interview-ban-russian-travelers/

Stopping Russians from leaving the country benefits only Putin, for whom the full isolation of his people from the West and its influence is the ideal scenario. People who oppose him will get imprisoned, independent journalists won't be able to provide an alternative point of view to a Russian-speaking audience etc.

I keep thinking of Walter Benjamin, who had killed himself because Spain refused to let him through to U.S. and threatened to return him to Nazi-occupied France. On the next day all the people from his group were let through (most likely because of his suicide), yet we had lost one of the most brilliant minds of the XXth century. And the plethora of German internationals that had fled the Third Reich only to continue to fight with Hitler and his regime until the end of the war (like Thomas Mann with his radio addresses). Nah, the Allies should've sent them back to Germany to overthrow Hitler with sticks and stones.

I kind of agree with this. If you can't speak your mind in Russia in opposition to the war without risking 7 years I prison, I don't see the point of not allowing them into western countries.