Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Frosty said:
Russia is winning the economic war - and Putin is no closer to withdrawing troops

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ic-war-ukraine-food-fuel-price-vladimir-putin

The perverse effects of sanctions means rising fuel and food costs for the rest of the world – and fears are growing of a humanitarian catastrophe. Sooner or later, a deal must be made

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I'm fairly ignorant on the issue of sanctions so would welcome any thoughts.

For me if a deal is struck (without it being a Ukrainian idea) then surely that is a massive victory for Putin and zero deterrence for his next imperial adventure?
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Without the invasion in february there would still be a significant inflation rise in the West. As far as I understand, war is a notable factor, but not even close to being the biggest.
Secondly, using account surplus as a tool of measuring whether sanctions are effective is just bizzare. I have no idea how did he come up with that.
 
Lemoor said:
Without the invasion in february there would still be a significant inflation rise in the West. As far as I understand, war is a notable factor, but not even close to being the biggest.
Secondly, using account surplus as a tool of measuring whether sanctions are effective is just bizzare. I have no idea how did he come up with that.
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Because that supports the pre written conclusion.
 
MoskvaRed said:
Pure fascism with added cult of personality.
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How morally bankrupt you have to be to force this on kids, these nursery workers are genuinely the lowest of the low for accepting/showing similar initiatives. Soviet legacy these people with slave mentality that would sell their mothers for some preferential treatment. Absolutely zero self-respect.
 
Rajma said:
How morally bankrupt you have to be to force this on kids, these nursery workers are genuinely the lowest of the low for accepting/showing similar initiatives. Soviet legacy these people with slave mentality that would sell their mothers for some preferential treatment. Absolutely zero self-respect.
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It’s despicable, and I’ve heard other nauseating tales of indoctrination concerning my wife’s 7 year-old goddaughter at school just outside Moscow. The mindset is even pre-Soviet I’d argue - it’s like the krepostnoye pravo never really ended. Still believing in the Good Tsar.
 
Rajma said:
How morally bankrupt you have to be to force this on kids, these nursery workers are genuinely the lowest of the low for accepting/showing similar initiatives. Soviet legacy these people with slave mentality that would sell their mothers for some preferential treatment. Absolutely zero self-respect.
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More stupid than morally bankrupt. They grew up in a society where supporting something more than yourself as a kid was not even normal, it was a privilege. And they do believe, the majority of them, at least, that they’re doing it for the right cause — to stop fascism (and they don’t get the cruel irony).

Although that’s if we’re talking about teachers etc., Putin & his guys know full well what they’re doing, of course.
 
MoskvaRed said:
It’s despicable, and I’ve heard other nauseating tales of indoctrination concerning my wife’s 7 year-old goddaughter at school just outside Moscow. The mindset is even pre-Soviet I’d argue - it’s like the krepostnoye pravo never really ended. Still believing in the Good Tsar.
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I don’t think it’s a cult like, they quickly gonna <<переобуться>> once the regime falls. It’s all about personal gain as they try to showcase themselves in the eyes of their superiors. As you rightly said totally despicable human beings with no morals.
 
harms said:
More stupid than morally bankrupt. They grew up in a society where supporting something more than yourself as a kid was not even normal, it was a privilege. And they do believe, the majority of them, at least, that they’re doing it for the right cause — to stop fascism (and they don’t get the cruel irony).

Although that’s if we’re talking about teachers etc., Putin & his guys know full well what they’re doing, of course.
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I’m mostly disappointed by those who as you say are doing everything whilst knowing full well what’s going on of which there are plenty:



This is purely out self-serving interest what these people are doing, just to be noticed by ruling party authorities.
 
These are very same people that are happy to facilitate an participate in the election rigging for a bag of groceries.
 
Rajma said:
I’m mostly disappointed by those who as you say are doing everything whilst knowing full well what’s going on of which there are plenty:



This is purely out self-serving interest what these people are doing, just to be noticed by ruling party authorities.
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But at least:
 
Rajma said:
I’m mostly disappointed by those who as you say are doing everything whilst knowing full well what’s going on of which there are plenty:



This is purely out self-serving interest what these people are doing, just to be noticed by ruling party authorities.
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Yeah, when we talk about Universities, especially those like MSU & HSE, it’s hard to believe that the majority of their administration & staff actually believe what’s being said.
 
frostbite said:
This! Exactly this! I don't understand why Biden is so soft. I hated Reagan, but I wish we had someone like that vs Putin. And actually if we had Reagan, probably Putin wouldn't dare invade Ukraine in the first place. Unfortunately Biden gives the impression of a pacifist, and Putin does not respect pacifists.
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Gotta say I have to agree with that assessment. Against this current version of Putin, the United States needs to begin using harsher language against the Kremlin. It would also prepare for future showdowns against China and their wolf warrior diplomats down the road (slight off-topic). To be very honest with you, I often believe the US should have their own designated equivalents to the Chinese wolf warriors just to keep pounding on geopolitical adversaries (the ones who will always have an confrontational stance with the West regardless). That would also make easy domestic political points scored at home too.

Sounds to me that too many people in Washington have been drinking too much of the same shit that Henry Kissinger has done for too long. No wonder why people have dismissed Kissinger straight away when he came out with his recent comments the other day. There is a time to be a pacifist, but now is not the time to make it obvious in this poker game.
 
As I remember, there is an article in the post-Soviet Russian constitution that resembles the 25th Amendment for the eventuality where the president is incapacitated for whatever reason. Gotta wonder who would be brave enough to activate it, but that (those) person (people) may still be on the wanted list by targeted sanctions.
 
GlastonSpur said:
So now it's not just Ukrainian intelligence saying that Putin is very ill ....

Putin Treated for Cancer in April, U.S. Intelligence Report Says:

https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-putin-treated-cancer-april-us-intelligence-report-says-1710357
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You're still obsessed with this issue of Putin dying aren't you?

To summarise the link you've posted: 3 nameless "officials" from 3 different US departments (including a "retired Air Forсe officer", who are notorious for having the inside track on inscrutable foreign leaders' top-secret medical records) read a "classified" (hmmm....) US intelligence report and then each individually and independently decided to call up a tabloid website that is famous for putting out utter nonsense (unlike other American media outlets Newsweek hasn't used fact-checkers since 1996) to say that Putin was treated for cancer on an unspecified day in April. Bastion of journalistic integrity Newseek is claiming this as an "Exclusive!" In other words, those 3 unnamed guys from entirely separate departments each read the same "classified" report and thought to themselves: "I must call Newsweek and give them this 'exclusive' immediately!"

Favourite passage of the 'article':

"All three officials—one from the office of the Director of National Intelligence, one a retired Air Force senior officer, and one from the Defense Intelligence Agency—caution that the Russian leader's isolation makes it more difficult for U.S. intelligence to precisely assess Putin's status and health.

"What we know is that there is an iceberg out there, albeit one covered in fog"

So: he definitely has cancer and was definitely treated for it in April, but we should caution that we really have no idea what's going on with his health.

Putin isn't dying. I see him every single day on TV commenting on events of that day, and have done since the day of the invasion (you guys would too if your governments hadn't banned "Russian state propaganda" to protect you). Stop with this absolute nonsense you keep posting. At the very least, actually read the shite you post beyond the 'sensational' headline and then take 15 seconds to consider the source instead of instantly rushing to uncritically post it here. Newsweek carries about 20 "exclusives" a day, ranging from "Putin is dying" to "Elvis was spotted in Wyoming last night". Putin is playing a very long game here (as acknowledged by actual analysts, including Zelenskiy's main advisor, Oleksiy Arestovich) and this whole "crazy old irrational man dying of cancer" narrative isn't helping anyone understand what's really going on here.
 
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DT12 said:
You're still obsessed with this issue of Putin dying aren't you?

To summarise the link you've posted: 3 nameless "officials" from 3 different US departments (including a "retired Air Forсe officer", who are notorious for having the inside track on inscrutable foreign leaders' top-secret medical records) read a "classified" (hmmm....) US intelligence report and then each individually and independently decided to call up a tabloid website that is famous for putting out utter nonsense (unlike other American media outlets Newsweek hasn't used fact-checkers since 1996) to say that Putin was treated for cancer on an unspecified day in April. Bastion of journalistic integrity Newseek is claiming this as an "Exclusive!" In other words, those 3 unnamed guys from entirely separate departments each read the same "classified" report and thought to themselves: "I must call Newsweek and give them this 'exclusive' immediately!"

Favourite passage of the 'article':

"All three officials—one from the office of the Director of National Intelligence, one a retired Air Force senior officer, and one from the Defense Intelligence Agency—caution that the Russian leader's isolation makes it more difficult for U.S. intelligence to precisely assess Putin's status and health.

"What we know is that there is an iceberg out there, albeit one covered in fog"

So: he definitely has cancer and was definitely treated for it in April, but we should caution that we really have no idea what's going on with his health.

Putin isn't dying. I see him every single day on TV, and have done since the day of the invasion (you guys would too if your governments hadn't banned "Russian state propaganda" to protect you). Stop with this absolute nonsense you keep posting. At the very least, actually read the shite you post beyond the 'sensational' headline and then take 15 seconds to consider the source instead of instantly rushing to uncritically post it here. Newsweek carries about 20 "exclusives" a day, ranging from "Putin is dying" to "Elvis was spotted in Wyoming last night".
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So, your claim is that Newsweek has invented the whole thing from nothing - that the three intelligence officials cited don't exist, that there is no intelligence report, and that the direct quotes from these (non-existent) officials are also invented. OK - it's a theory I guess, but one that ignores the many other sources saying that Putin is very ill. These sources include:

* The head of Ukrainian intelligence
* A former Soviet spy: Boris Karpichkov, KGB defector to Britain (and formerly an officer of the Second Chief Directorate)
* The Proekt investigative website
* New Lines Magazine
* A Telegram channel called “General SVR” and purportedly helmed by a former officer from Russia’s Foreign Intelligence Service
* A former British spy who worked in Russia for many years

There have also been reports that rumours of Putin's ill-health are rife within Russian officialdom - reports that every regional director of Russia’s FSB security service reportedly received an email on March 13 instructing them not to believe rumours about the president’s “terminal condition.”

Of course, all these sources and reports could be fabrications or wrong. But let's not pretend they don't exist. And let's not pretend that there aren't several Russian TV videos which seem to show a distinctly ill-looking Putin.

You seem to put great stock in the fact that you see Putin "every single day on TV". However, some of his "appearances" seem to have been fabricated using video-trickery that will fool a casual observer, but not a close analysis. There are several claimed examples of this if you wish to check them out.
 
Why is @Paxi and @DT12 allowed to post in here when they are absolutely shilling for the Kremlin?

Supporters of war crimes shouldnt be allowed to post on this forum.

Its disgusting and so disrespectful to the likes of @Water Melon

Can a mod explain to me why they are still allowed access to this forum?
 
I honestly could not care less about Paxi and the likes. I have made my opinion of them and moved on. I hope Ukraine wins the war, the chief rushist is defeated while his army continues to rot from within, thus posing no threat to the world in the next 5-6 decades. This war will never be forgiven nor forgotten, neither will the war crimes and the genocide. The ideology of russians being superior to other slavic or former ussr nations should be eradicated once and for all. We are all just human beings.
 
DatIrishFella said:
Why is @Paxi and @DT12 allowed to post in here when they are absolutely shilling for the Kremlin?

Supporters of war crimes shouldnt be allowed to post on this forum.

Its disgusting and so disrespectful to the likes of @Water Melon

Can a mod explain to me why they are still allowed access to this forum?
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At no point has DT12 defended any war crimes, and what they're saying is far less crazy than what several people are spouting and spamming here. Paxi has had a bit of a mare, and is clearly denying the massacres/torbure/executions, but if you read the Israel-Palestine thread you'll see that defending crimes that would be war crimes if it was an official war is not blanket banned on Redcafe.
 
@DatIrishFella I think free speech is important. Once you start silencing idiots like @Paxi , all that happens is you lose the ability to change their mind - or even yours. You need to have difficult conversations, otherwise you end up with everyone pretending everything is going great, nobody is allowed to say anything that contradicts the company line, and you have essentially lost your freedom to have a different opinion. Basically, you end up like Russia and they go off and nothing gets any better. The second best thing you can do if you really don't like what they are saying is put them on ignore and let them talk themselves into a hole, because even they must have some sort of real understanding of their truth. The best thing you can do though, is exercise your free speech to change their mind.

If it's obvious they're paid by the Kremlin and are sitting in the "Internet Research Agency" in St Petersburg, that's a different matter. After all those guys are paid pretty well, and 85% of the Russian intelligence funding goes towards lying on the internet, at least according to Yuri Bezmenov... And it's hard to believe that that EVER changed.
 
I've put those two cnuts on ignore as I'll just end up getting banned myself. I've no desire whatsoever to change their minds.

Let them rot in Russia.
 
GlastonSpur said:
OK - it's a theory I guess, but one that ignores the many other sources saying that Putin is very ill. These sources include:

* The head of Ukrainian intelligence
* A former Soviet spy: Boris Karpichkov, KGB defector to Britain (and formerly an officer of the Second Chief Directorate)
* The Proekt investigative website
* New Lines Magazine
* A Telegram channel called “General SVR” and purportedly helmed by a former officer from Russia’s Foreign Intelligence Service
* A former British spy who worked in Russia for many years
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Proekt haven’t claimed what you say they did. They actually did some journalism and stated facts (comparing Putin’s visits to Sochi with different doctors movements) instead of assumptions. More so, they were very specific at what they claim and what they do not, highlighting that having a thyroid oncology doctor visit Putin, obviously, can’t be equated to Putin having thyroid cancer.

The rest of your sources are laughable to say the least with the exception of the chief of Ukrainian intelligence but I’d say that he’s quite likely to have anterior motives not to check his information thoroughly. Karpichnikov lives in UK for more than 20 years & the less anonymous “former something” and telegram channels allegedly helmed by a former someone, the better. I’m surprised that you haven’t mentioned your psychic friend, he wouldn’t look out of place in that list.

I clearly don’t agree with @DT12 on most of his opinions and assessments about what’s happening but he calls you up on that one fair and square.
 
Water Melon said:
This war will never be forgiven nor forgotten, neither will the war crimes and the genocide.
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This is key. Russia has proven itself to be unreliable, aggressive and to have utter contempt for human life and the rest of Europe. And from what I can see, a concerning amount of ‘normal’ Russians (but not all, of course) seem happy to buy into their narrative and go along with it.

Russia has shown it cannot, or will not peacefully coexist with other countries. The only option is to ostracise and isolate them from the civilised world, and hope they come to their senses. Maintain sanctions, maintain the bans, turn them into North Korea. Once they have withdrawn from all of Ukraine (inc Crimea) and finished paying back the billions they should owe in reparations, then there can be a discussion about reintegrating then with the rest of Europe.
 
Walrus said:
Russia has shown it cannot, or will not peacefully coexist with other countries. The only option is to ostracise and isolate them from the civilised world, and hope they come to their senses. Maintain sanctions, maintain the bans, turn them into North Korea.
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It’s the last thing you want to do if you want Russia to come to their senses (didn’t work out well for North Korea, did it?).

Not that I can think of a good solution that would lead us out of this situation.
 
GazTheLegend said:
@DatIrishFella I think free speech is important. Once you start silencing idiots like @Paxi , all that happens is you lose the ability to change their mind - or even yours. You need to have difficult conversations, otherwise you end up with everyone pretending everything is going great, nobody is allowed to say anything that contradicts the company line, and you have essentially lost your freedom to have a different opinion. Basically, you end up like Russia and they go off and nothing gets any better. The second best thing you can do if you really don't like what they are saying is put them on ignore and let them talk themselves into a hole, because even they must have some sort of real understanding of their truth. The best thing you can do though, is exercise your free speech to change their mind.

If it's obvious they're paid by the Kremlin and are sitting in the "Internet Research Agency" in St Petersburg, that's a different matter. After all those guys are paid pretty well, and 85% of the Russian intelligence funding goes towards lying on the internet, at least according to Yuri Bezmenov... And it's hard to believe that that EVER changed.
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There are lines you shouldn't be allowed to cross, like denying the holocaust and stuff like that. Your freedom ends where you harm the freedom of others without a appropriate self interest. These are the rules and they shouldn't be ignored just because you're an idiot and people hope to convince you of the opposite.

Also, I disagree with the notion that you have to allow such opinions. Most of the time, people like this are the loudest so they give the impression to neutral recipients that their "take" on the matter is more present and thus acceptable in society than it actually is. The same way it is misrepresenting when a far right wing party has 5% voters but in a political talk show accounts for 25% of the guests. If you talk bullshit like that, you should bear the consequences for that. And if that means "societal exclusion", so be it.
 
harms said:
It’s the last thing you want to do if you want Russia to come to their senses (didn’t work out well for North Korea, did it?).

Not that I can think of a good solution that would lead us out of this situation.
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Yeah, I get that. In an ideal world, maybe the good, reasonable Russians like yourself would be in charge, or at least split the country into a Western Russia and Eastern Russia.

I don’t know what the best thing would be to ‘reach’ the pro-war Russians, or to change their minds. It’s the same problem we have been facing with Trumpians, Brexiteers etc and so far there doesn’t seem to be a great counter strategy for dealing with them.
 
VorZakone said:
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Yea it's very dangerous. The interest is definitely fading away which of course suits Russia (together with their allies in Europe like Serbia, Hungary) and gives them the invaluable time. Let's hope Ukraine are gathering all the weapons right now and are preparing to send Russians located there straight to hell.
 
A disclaimer on why I’m so aggressive to Glaston reposting questionable stories from iffy sources is that the Russian propaganda works best by exploiting same things.

The main idea of Russian propaganda isn’t a clear & positive message (positive as in pro-active, not as good) — it’s an incoherent mess of different ideas like fear of Nazism, imperialism, resentment etc. But it’s the most effective at throwing shade on alternative versions of events, creating this picture that everyone lies (including Russia), no one can be trusted and, ergo, you shouldn’t do anything about it.

Yes, they’ll even try to paint things like Bucha as fakes, but when you give them a legitimate reason to state that the rest of the world also posts fakes & speculations, it only works for them, giving Russian propaganda more ammunition.
 
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