Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Carolina Red said:
Russians are gonna be in for a world of hurt against those.
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I don't understand why we waited so long. Do we want Ukraine to win or not? And why are we afraid that "Ukraine could use the systems to carry out offensive attacks inside Russia"??? Russia is destroying Ukraine for over 3 months now, it is only fair if Ukraine fires inside Russia.

From the article:

<<The US-made weapon systems can fire a barrage of rockets hundreds of kilometers — much farther than any of the systems Ukraine already has — which the Ukrainians argue could be a gamechanger in their war against Russia.

Another system Ukraine has asked for is the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, known as HIMARS, a lighter wheeled system capable of firing many of the same types of ammunition as MLRS.

Russia has in recent weeks pummeled Ukraine in the east, where Ukraine is outmanned and outgunned, Ukrainian officials have said.

The Biden administration waivered for weeks, however, on whether to send the systems, amid concerns raised within the National Security Council that Ukraine could use the systems to carry out offensive attacks inside Russia, officials said.>>
 
frostbite said:
I don't understand why we waited so long. Do we want Ukraine to win or not? And why are we afraid that "Ukraine could use the systems to carry out offensive attacks inside Russia"??? Russia is destroying Ukraine for over 3 months now, it is only fair if Ukraine fires inside Russia.

From the article:

<<The US-made weapon systems can fire a barrage of rockets hundreds of kilometers — much farther than any of the systems Ukraine already has — which the Ukrainians argue could be a gamechanger in their war against Russia.

Another system Ukraine has asked for is the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, known as HIMARS, a lighter wheeled system capable of firing many of the same types of ammunition as MLRS.

Russia has in recent weeks pummeled Ukraine in the east, where Ukraine is outmanned and outgunned, Ukrainian officials have said.

The Biden administration waivered for weeks, however, on whether to send the systems, amid concerns raised within the National Security Council that Ukraine could use the systems to carry out offensive attacks inside Russia, officials said.>>
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I don’t understand the reasoning of the NSC, but, and I know this will sound cynical, I do understand being cautious about sending front line tech to foreign battlefields, considering how well that’s gone for us in recent conflicts. I.e. We’ve exported less than 100 HIMARS systems total in its existence.

Edit - and to add a bit of a tinfoil hat angle… it’s possible that we’ve been training Ukrainian artillerymen how to use these systems and now they’re operational and we’ve created a story to cover that up. But that’s admittedly out there.
 
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Carolina Red said:
I don’t understand the reasoning of the NSC, but, and I know this will sound cynical, I do understand being cautious about sending front line tech to foreign battlefields, considering how well that’s gone for us in recent conflicts. I.e. We’ve exported less than 100 HIMARS systems total in its existence.
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I'm pretty sure they could easily setup a way to deactivate them remotely if needed.
 
Carolina Red said:
I don’t understand the reasoning of the NSC, but, and I know this will sound cynical, I do understand being cautious about sending front line tech to foreign battlefields, considering how well that’s gone for us in recent conflicts. I.e. We’ve exported less than 100 HIMARS systems total in its existence.

Edit - and to add a bit of a tinfoil hat angle… it’s possible that we’ve been training Ukrainian artillerymen how to use these systems and now they’re operational and we’ve created a story to cover that up. But that’s admittedly out there.
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I read the reasoning in the article, and I get what you are saying, but I still do not understand why the West is dithering so much. The war is 3 months old now. The allies (US, UK, EU) have to make a final decision that they are going to help Ukraine win this war, no matter what. We are already involved. We don't have to discuss the same thing over and over, every week. Get over with "decisions" and provide them with everything they need to win, ASAP. Including a long term plan for SAMs, Patriots, F-16, or whatever, in case the war lasts for 12 months or more. If the Russians win, they will still hate us and they will try to hurt us wherever they can. If they lose, the same thing. It makes no difference to them, the Russian Nationalists hate us already, because the Western help is the only reason Ukraine did not fall. The best for everyone is if the Russians lose quickly, and I really believe this is the best for the Russians too.
 
frostbite said:
I don't understand why we waited so long. Do we want Ukraine to win or not? And why are we afraid that "Ukraine could use the systems to carry out offensive attacks inside Russia"??? Russia is destroying Ukraine for over 3 months now, it is only fair if Ukraine fires inside Russia.

From the article:

<<The US-made weapon systems can fire a barrage of rockets hundreds of kilometers — much farther than any of the systems Ukraine already has — which the Ukrainians argue could be a gamechanger in their war against Russia.

Another system Ukraine has asked for is the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, known as HIMARS, a lighter wheeled system capable of firing many of the same types of ammunition as MLRS.

Russia has in recent weeks pummeled Ukraine in the east, where Ukraine is outmanned and outgunned, Ukrainian officials have said.

The Biden administration waivered for weeks, however, on whether to send the systems, amid concerns raised within the National Security Council that Ukraine could use the systems to carry out offensive attacks inside Russia, officials said.>>
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Most people likely predicted the war would be over by now and Putin would have backed off. To be fair, they have been held back and its been a stalemate. Ukraine has not lacked military support. They wouldn't be holding off Russia this way if they were
 
sport2793 said:
What would stop a country opening up the unit and rewiring it to prevent remote deactivation?
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I don't know if it's that simple. For instance, they might use satellite to look for an "okay" signal in the software to function else they simple won't and "opening up" would essentially be creating your own from scratch.
 
Carolina Red said:
Russians are gonna be in for a world of hurt against those.
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The M270 MLRS has an operational range of 310 miles (500 km) for precision-guided missiles. If those are deployed from anywhere in the Kyiv Oblast, they can basically strike anywhere in Russian-occupied territories.
 
shamans said:
Most people likely predicted the war would be over by now and Putin would have backed off. To be fair, they have been held back and its been a stalemate. Ukraine has not lacked military support. They wouldn't be holding off Russia this way if they were
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Yes, it is obvious to all that without the Western help Ukraine would lose. Even today, they have a serious disadvantage in firepower, both artillery and air force. Ukraine has not won yet, it has just survived. We have to make sure that it wins. That's the only way this war ends. Otherwise, Putin will just wait for another occasion (a Republican President?) and hit them again.
 
shamans said:
I don't know if it's that simple. For instance, they might use satellite to look for an "okay" signal in the software to function else they simple won't and "opening up" would essentially be creating your own from scratch.
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I don't think such systems utilise remote activation. It's too big risk because the enemy may hack the signal or destroy the satellite.
 
frostbite said:
Yes, it is obvious to all that without the Western help Ukraine would lose. Even today, they have a serious disadvantage in firepower, both artillery and air force. Ukraine has not won yet, it has just survived. We have to make sure that it wins. That's the only way this war ends. Otherwise, Putin will just wait for another occasion (a Republican President?) and hit them again.
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Yes definitely.
Despite the huge assistance Ukraine has been given by many western countries, it is nothing like enough to stop the Russian invasion.
IMHO, it is now time for countries and NATO to ratchet up their equipment support to Ukraine. Especially in light of the most recent attacks in the Donbas region.
I am fearful that the west is taking its eye off Ukraine. And that will become more important as time moves on.
We need significantly better leadership against Putin.
 
frostbite said:
I don't understand why we waited so long. Do we want Ukraine to win or not? And why are we afraid that "Ukraine could use the systems to carry out offensive attacks inside Russia"??? Russia is destroying Ukraine for over 3 months now, it is only fair if Ukraine fires inside Russia.

From the article:

<<The US-made weapon systems can fire a barrage of rockets hundreds of kilometers — much farther than any of the systems Ukraine already has — which the Ukrainians argue could be a gamechanger in their war against Russia.

Another system Ukraine has asked for is the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, known as HIMARS, a lighter wheeled system capable of firing many of the same types of ammunition as MLRS.

Russia has in recent weeks pummeled Ukraine in the east, where Ukraine is outmanned and outgunned, Ukrainian officials have said.

The Biden administration waivered for weeks, however, on whether to send the systems, amid concerns raised within the National Security Council that Ukraine could use the systems to carry out offensive attacks inside Russia, officials said.>>
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My guess would be that these weapons are vulnerable to air strikes. Most US weapons of this size and scale are usually operated from ground covered by air superiority and anti missile systems which Ukraine doesn't have.
 
Buster15 said:
Yes definitely.
Despite the huge assistance Ukraine has been given by many western countries, it is nothing like enough to stop the Russian invasion.
IMHO, it is now time for countries and NATO to ratchet up their equipment support to Ukraine. Especially in light of the most recent attacks in the Donbas region.
I am fearful that the west is taking its eye off Ukraine. And that will become more important as time moves on.
We need significantly better leadership against Putin.
Click to expand...

Well its 2 years away from the next US election before that West gets a leader who knows his own name, so Putin's got that amount of time to get what he wants.
No amount of NATO help will sadly make a difference before food and fuel shortages begin to really bite by which time NATO will over step the line, if it already hasn't.

And yes, the world's already getting bored of it, the same way Syria and Afghanistan and even Covid play second fiddle to Depp, Heard, Monkeypox and birthday cakes.
 
Fearless said:
Well its 2 years away from the next US election before that West gets a leader who knows his own name, so Putin's got that amount of time to get what he wants.
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Your joking right? Do I need to list the aid given/promised so far by the US? It far surpasses anything anyone expected.
 
Fearless said:
Henry Kissinger's take.....

https://www.newsweek.com/does-henry-kissinger-have-point-ukraine-opinion-1710638
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Kissinger's suggestion was met with pushback almost immediately. Hours after Kissinger spoke, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky reiterated his government's position: there will be no peace talks until Moscow withdraws from every inch of Ukrainian territory, including Crimea.
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When did Ukrainians start thinking about Russian retreat from Crimea? That's new to me. I thought Zelensky always emphasized pre-invasion borders to be restored and 'accepted' that Crimea was lost for the foreseeable future.
 
VorZakone said:
When did Ukrainians start thinking about Russian retreat from Crimea? That's new to me. I thought Zelensky always emphasized pre-invasion borders to be restored and 'accepted' that Crimea was lost for the foreseeable future.
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In the eyes of Zelenskyy/Ukraine, pre invasion is pre 2014.

I’d imagine they’re only doubling down on that now they’re in a strong position and growing ever stronger.
 
VorZakone said:
When did Ukrainians start thinking about Russian retreat from Crimea? That's new to me. I thought Zelensky always emphasized pre-invasion borders to be restored and 'accepted' that Crimea was lost for the foreseeable future.
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From what I've heard from him from the start, his stance is very much never giving up on Crimea, but he see's that territory more of a diplomatic mission more than a military one. The situation is always changing though, if/when Russia retreats from post 24/2 borders, it may be because they has pretty much been a colapse of their armed forces, at which point a military option may be on the cards. We are a long way off knowing what that reality may look like however.
 
How does Kasparov figure that 2 EU countries are rewarding Russia for its crimes?
 
Fearless said:
Well its 2 years away from the next US election before that West gets a leader who knows his own name, so Putin's got that amount of time to get what he wants.
No amount of NATO help will sadly make a difference before food and fuel shortages begin to really bite by which time NATO will over step the line, if it already hasn't.

And yes, the world's already getting bored of it, the same way Syria and Afghanistan and even Covid play second fiddle to Depp, Heard, Monkeypox and birthday cakes.
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I will happily threadban you for posting bullshit here.

The US is currently giving $135 million worth of support per day to the Ukrainian war effort.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
The M270 MLRS has an operational range of 310 miles (500 km) for precision-guided missiles. If those are deployed from anywhere in the Kyiv Oblast, they can basically strike anywhere in Russian-occupied territories.
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I had to stop on the highway while crossing White Sands while there was a live fire test of an MLRS. No clue how far away either the launcher or the target was, but the missiles were clearly audible when they passed overhead. It became like a block party for the thirty minutes before the test was started, it was just another day for the locals.
 
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