Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

nickm said:
Or he could shoot some down "accidentally" to see what price NATO would be willing to pay and suddenly this becomes a NATO Russia conflict with Russia seriously outgunned which in Putins mind could justify a battlefield nuclear response.
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These things could happen without a NFZ as well. Putin could get desperate inside Ukraine and go for the Hiroshima style kill shot in the hope Ukrainians would instantly surrender. We have to broaden the possibilities beyond the usual Article 5 fearmongering and consider the possibility that we are already in WW3, which case its important to broaden the ROE.
 
Carolina Red said:
Big words from a guy who has his girlfriend in a Monte Carlo apartment.
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He's so detached from reality it makes you wonder how much his advisors have been lying to appease him all these years. From what I've read about dictators, they rarely if ever exist in a vacuum. They require a cabal of gutless opportunists to feed and appease their massive egos, while shielding them from the realities outside their bubble. These people are truly the worst b/c when it all comes crashing down they can always just say "He made me do it."
 
Raoul said:
These things could happen without a NFZ as well. Putin could get desperate inside Ukraine and go for the Hiroshima style kill shot in the hope Ukrainians would instantly surrender. We have to broaden the possibilities beyond the usual Article 5 fearmongering and consider the possibility that we are already in WW3, which case its important to broaden the ROE.
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I think talk like that is reckless. We aren't in WW3 and we still at this moment have the ability to contain this and avoid escalation while continuing to weaken and defeat Putin. It may well mean Ukraine goes through hell for another week or so but given the alternative...
 
2cents said:
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So the gist is basically anyone who likes western things like getting paid in a currency worth more than toilet roll or being able to afford bread in the coming weeks is a weak traitor who isn’t a proper Russian. He’s just setting the narrative for the oncoming economic disaster. It’s the west’s fault and if you complain you’re not really Russian anyway.
 
berbatrick said:
The internal fifth column, with their international rather than national sentiments/attachments, but for which we (Germany/Russia) would have won.
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never heard about "fifth column" or the likes in the context of Freikorps after WW1.

I get your general sentiment, though. Hitler personally hated cosmopolites with a passion, as they were living multiculturally and internationally without feeling attached to roots in a certain nation. Internationally thinking people were quite the exact opposite of what Hitler's dream of the ideal person was.
 
Shakesey said:
What emotions will Putin feel if he watches this? Anger? Vindication? Guilt? Pride. Powerful. Yes. Does he even have a heart?
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A combination of anger and contempt. Anger that an opponent has put together a compelling piece of progaganda and contempt that the opposition are effective in generating sympathy on their own behalf.
 
berbatrick said:
The internal fifth column, with their international rather than national sentiments/attachments, but for which we (Germany/Russia) would have won.
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Ah right, I’m not really familiar with the Freikorps.

Mickeza said:
So the gist is basically anyone who likes western things like getting paid in a currency worth more than toilet roll or being able to afford bread in the coming weeks is a weak traitor who isn’t a proper Russian. He’s just setting the narrative for the oncoming economic disaster. It’s the west’s fault and if you complain you’re not really Russian anyway.
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My interpretation is that he’s aiming specifically at the Oligarchs. But without knowing Russian and Putin’s way of doing things hard to know.
 
nickm said:
I think talk like that is reckless. We aren't in WW3 and we still at this moment have the ability to contain this and avoid escalation while continuing to weaken and defeat Putin. It may well mean Ukraine goes through hell for another week or so but given the alternative...
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We don't know yet because we don't know Putin's mindset. If he is planning on discharging a WMD then we will look back this particular chapter as the west fecklessly misdiagnosing the situation because its leaders didn't have the stomach to deal with the prospect of actually going to war.
 
Rektsanwalt said:
never heard about "fifth column" or the likes in the context of Freikorps after WW1.

I get your general sentiment, though. Hitler personally hated cosmopolites with a passion, as they were living multiculturally and internationally without feeling attached to roots in a certain nation. Internationally thinking people were quite the exact opposite of what Hitler's dream of the ideal person was.
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I could be wrong, I thought what you described was a more widespread feeling, and used as an explanation for Germany WW1 defeat.
 

narrative of Freikorps was that the German army never was defeated in battle, but by gernan socialdemocrats, jews and blood traitors: the so called Dolchstoßlegende. Cosmopolites and the likes were obvioudly ideological enemies as well, but as far as I can tell, they weren‘t considere the readon for Germany losing the war ever.
 
Carolina Red said:
It isn't whataboutism. It's looking to history to see what Putin might be trying to do.
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It's drawing comparisons to other conflicts. It's just as much whataboutery as when people draw comparisons to Israel/Palestine or Yemen in order to predict world responses in Ukraine.
 
Dante said:
It's drawing comparisons to other conflicts. It's just as much whataboutery as when people draw comparisons to Israel/Palestine or Yemen in order to predict world responses in Ukraine.
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Putin expressly mentioned a fifth column in an address to the nation earlier. People are giving the comment some background.
 
Dante said:
It's drawing comparisons to other conflicts. It's just as much whataboutery as when people draw comparisons to Israel/Palestine or Yemen in order to predict world responses in Ukraine.
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1) Using history to interpret present / future events is not what whataboutism means, and that's not what has been moved out of this thread.

2) It's perfectly fine to draw on a historical example to try and gain an understanding of what might happen next.
 
Lots of whataboutery police in here ironically taking things off topic more than actual whataboutery
 
Carolina Red said:
1) Using history to interpret present / future events is not what whataboutism means, and that's not what has been moved out of this thread.

2) It's perfectly fine to draw on a historical example to try and gain an understanding of what might happen next.
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It should be. It's still whataboutery.

If you swap the word 'history' with 'parallel events' you get Israel/Palestine and Yemen. And those two examples are far more relevant than WW2 because they involve contemporary nations.
 
Dante said:
It should be. It's still whataboutery.

If you swap the word 'history' with 'parallel events' you get Israel/Palestine and Yemen. And those two examples are far more relevant that WW2 because they involve contemporary nations.
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None of these involve a megalomaniac dictator so I am not sure why you are choosing this hill to die on.
 
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