Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Shakesey said:
If NATO is going to militarily defend the country then they should never accept his demands.
If NATO is never going to assist the country then they should accept his demands.
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But this isn't the case?

NATO will defend a country if they're a member of NATO.
Ukraine is not a part of NATO.
If Ukraine becomes a part of NATO, NATO will assist them with full force.

Ukraine couldn't/can't join NATO because of active disputes. If those disputes were/are resolved, they become eligible to (apply to) join NATO (as is the case with every European country)

This is not a case of NATO deciding they are "never going to assist the country", it is a case of "right now we can't/won't assist the country because they're not a part of NATO yet."

Giving in to Putins demands and saying to Ukraine "Putin says you can't join us, so we won't let you join us. Ever." would not only undermine NATO, but it would massively boost Putins ego.
 
Simbo said:


I fear the only way to take it is massive bombardment. That's what tempts NATO intervention though and I'm guessing that's the only reason Putin has shown some restraint so far.
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When will everyone understand, NATO will not be getting involved.
 


This isn’t good at all, I’d say being brought in to try and stop any insurgency. These guys are absolute butchers and will do anything they have to do, the things that a national army can’t do under law.
 
harms said:
Is it allowed? Are there anti-mercenary laws in Canada etc. or is he free to go & goin a military conflict in another country? Good on him anyway.
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Google tells me "as long as you’re not hired by someone who is either at war with us, or with any of our allies, then you should be clear"

From listenting to talks with ex US special forces people in the past, its not unusual some guys carry on chasing conflict around the world, for different reasons. Be that money, because they are action-junkies, do-gooders or cos its the only life they know.
 
Rightnr said:
Those scenes of the Chechens make my blood curdle. Letting those animals in an urban setting with civilian children and women won't be pretty.

And one more thing about providing Russia with guarantees Ukraine won't join NATO. How did that go for Ukraine when they gave up their nuclear weapons? You just cannot trust empires, new and old, to behave cordially.
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I have no idea if it’s true or not but I’ve seen reports that it may have been shot simply for intimidation purposes and those weren’t all fighters (active Chechen forces are already fighting). Who knows though, I’m certainly not in a position to be able to get to the truth.
 
Skåre Willoch said:
But this isn't the case?

NATO will defend a country if they're a member of NATO.
Ukraine is not a part of NATO.
If Ukraine becomes a part of NATO, NATO will assist them with full force.

Ukraine couldn't/can't join NATO because of active disputes. If those disputes were/are resolved, they become eligible to (apply to) join NATO (as is the case with every European country)

This is not a case of NATO deciding they are "never going to assist the country", it is a case of "right now we can't/won't assist the country because they're not a part of NATO yet."

Giving in to Putins demands and saying to Ukraine "Putin says you can't join us, so we won't let you join us. Ever." would not only undermine NATO, but it would massively boost Putins ego.
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Point taken :) Thanks
 
Gambit said:
When will everyone understand, NATO will not be getting involved.
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I understand the argument, come back to me where there is 200k+ dead bodies in Kyiv and we'll see.
 
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owlo said:
Perhaps not for some. Possibly depends where you're from too. For me, absolutely. If it looked existential I'd be fine with it. We all die anyway, may as well do something useful. And I extend that to the country I renounced citizenship of.
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I was of the same opinion as you back then. But now I would not sacrifice my children or those of others for the flag I fought for, I can tell you that. I've had more than my fill of war.
 
dove said:
Double win for Putin. Not only he will have Ukraine but also divided EU even more. Germany and Italy will be seen as traitors and mercenaries. EU is absolutely useless if we fail to act on what happens right on our boarders. And no, I am not talking about send in an army. Real sanctions is what the people ask. Not some bullshit nonsense ones that we have now, we look like clowns that Putin is laughing at.
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Superb post. Think this could be even triple win for Vladimir Vladimirovich who unintentionally exposed Germany and Italy as today's Hitler's pact with Mussolini.

History just loves to repeat itself without mercy in critical moments like this one.
 
Shakesey said:
You think they can beat Russia?
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I don't think they've got a chance, no. But they wouldn't need to "beat" Russia, they would need it to have become more effort than it is worth for Russia to continue.

Sadly while it sounds like they're taking out some equipment, they're not putting a big dent into overall numbers it seems.
 
harms said:
I have no idea if it’s true or not but I’ve seen reports that it may have been shot simply for intimidation purposes and those weren’t all fighters (active Chechen forces are already fighting). Who knows though, I’m certainly not in a position to be able to get to the truth.
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I wouldn't be surprised. The big gathering, black clothing etc, it's definitely also meant to intimidate Ukraine: "look what's coming to you".
 
harms said:
I have no idea if it’s true or not but I’ve seen reports that it may have been shot simply for intimidation purposes and those weren’t all fighters (active Chechen forces are already fighting). Who knows though, I’m certainly not in a position to be able to get to the truth.
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Probably (hopefully) intimidation but if Putin doesn't get his way, it can get ugly...
 
Pintu said:
"The only possible way is diplomacy" says Sarkozy after meeting with Macron who consulted former presidents.

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The second part of the stance is important and shouldn't be cut out. He said and he is right that the alternative is total war.

That's where I don't understand some people in here. We absolutely need to try to find a diplomatic answer before going to war because this war won't be like Libya, Kosovo or Irak. We are talking about super powers vs super powers.
 
IWat said:
I don't think they've got a chance, no. But they wouldn't need to "beat" Russia, they would need it to have become more effort than it is worth for Russia to continue.

Sadly while it sounds like they're taking out some equipment, they're not putting a big dent into overall numbers it seems.
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Putin hasn’t even started, he had one knight of bombardment before going in. He could of all means blasted Kyiv for consecutive days before rolling in.
 
Denis79 said:
I was of the same opinion as you back then. But now I would not sacrifice my children or those of others for the flag I fought for, I can tell you that. I've had more than my fill of war.
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Same, but I also saw WWII, and what happened there to my great grandparents. If the threat to either the UK or Israel was existential, I wouldn't see a place for my children to grow up with their values.

Yes, it's rather nihilistic. But that's the way to survive, I feel. I wouldn't want the possiblity somebody could declare my kin "halflings" or whatever, and ship them off to death camps.
 
Simbo said:
I understand the argument, come back to me where there is 200+ dead bodies in Kyiv and we'll see.
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Again, regardless, NATO will not be getting involved. The only support will be in supply of munitions, sanctions or aid from Western countries. Believe you me it's not a case of not wanting someone to come in and stop it all drive Putin back, but to do so would begin WW3 and therefore won't happen.
 
Simbo said:
I understand the argument, come back to me where there is 200+ dead bodies in Kyiv and we'll see.
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do you think we will risk WWIII even if theres millions of dead ukranian bodies?
Obviously no
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
BBC... "an official for the EU says the bloc has decided to freeze European assets held by Russian President Vladimir Putin and Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

It's unclear however if either man holds significant assets in the EU"
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Most of it is in Panama. To do that though would set a precedent the rich don't want to go into.
 
Van Piorsing said:
Superb post. Think this could be even triple win for Vladimir Vladimirovich who unintentionally exposed Germany and Italy as today's Hitler's pact with Mussolini.

History just loves to repeat itself without mercy in critical moments like this one.
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Germany have shown they are hypocrites time and again but what's pissing me off the most is Merkel coming out and condemning Russia.

You gave them the means and leverage to wage these conflicts in the first place. The German citizens might not like it but it's time to make a sacrifice and take a bit of pain for the future of Europe. Throw Russia out of Swift because otherwise all this talk of the economic approach to fighting Russia is pointless.
 
Skåre Willoch said:
But this isn't the case?

NATO will defend a country if they're a member of NATO.
Ukraine is not a part of NATO.
If Ukraine becomes a part of NATO, NATO will assist them with full force.

Ukraine couldn't/can't join NATO because of active disputes. If those disputes were/are resolved, they become eligible to (apply to) join NATO (as is the case with every European country)

This is not a case of NATO deciding they are "never going to assist the country", it is a case of "right now we can't/won't assist the country because they're not a part of NATO yet."

Giving in to Putins demands and saying to Ukraine "Putin says you can't join us, so we won't let you join us. Ever." would not only undermine NATO, but it would massively boost Putins ego.
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I am certainly not knowledgeable about this, but didn’t this whole thing start because Ukraine wanted to join NATO, and also ended up giving up its nuclear weapons for that purpose?
 
The West needs to stop the stupid rhetoric of Russia becoming an international pariah state, and this and that. It's not happening. India will facilitate Russia in some ways, same for the Chinese. You got Imran Khan visiting Moscow. Bolsonaro supporting Putin.

The West has got to become extremely realistic and pragmatic about the new world order, and look to deeper alliances with the likes of South Korea & Japan and other Asian countries.
 
VorZakone said:
The West needs to stop the stupid rhetoric of Russia becoming an international pariah state, and this and that. It's not happening. India will facilitate Russia in some ways, same for the Chinese. You got Imran Khan visiting Moscow. Bolsonaro supporting Putin.

The West has got to become extremely realistic and pragmatic about the new world order look to deeper alliances with the likes of South Korea & Japan and other Asian countries.
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There needs to be “baddies” in our culture.
 
These sanctions are becoming laughable

Russia and Ukraine are in the boxing ring throwing some insane blows, and some little dweeb is stood outside the ring quietly saying stop it stop it Mr Russia I’ve sanctioned you in this this and this and I’ll do more

Russia are barely listening to this pointless little dweeb thinking I wish they’d shut up, giving no poops to the content coming out the dweebs mouth

stop holding back! And just throw every sanction under the sun at them because they aren’t going to slow down
 
As full of admiration as I am for the courage and ferocity with which Ukrainians have defended themselves over the last 24 hours, the cynic in me can't help but wonder did it suit Putin to go in softly to begin with.

A large part of his justification for this aggression is this idea of the militarization and mobilisation of Ukraine against Russia. We all know he has little regard for loss of life on either side, so those Ukraine wins of the early hours will merely back up his claims and give him further bullshit justification for ramping up the violence moving forward.
 
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