Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

People forget but one thing that came out of snowden was the fact that the US invented the game of placing dormant backdoor in friends or foes. Will be surprised if this is not the case here, with their reliance on antiquated stuff like Windows xp.
The US military itself still depends a lot on Windows XP. I know that's not your point re: backdoors, but just came to mind. A lot of advanced stuff by military standards, like a radar capable of tracking hundreds of targets and an associated automated fire control system, might still be running on Windows XP or older OS

https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/why-the-military-cant-quit-windows-xp.html
 
There are so many angles and takes which all lead to good and bad outcomes. The reality is there isn’t an easy solution to this. Sanctions are great, longer term, but do they do enough right now to make a difference? Each nations economies are so interconnected now too, not to mention things like energy supply, that sanctions have detrimental effects to your own economy too. And on top of all that, sanctions only work if there is a consistent global effort. Countries like China and what role they might play have a significant impact on how effective sanctions would be.

From a military standpoint, I really don’t think it matters if the US and EU have a much more stronger and advanced military than Russia, because sure in the long run that would be important, but war can’t be conceptualised in that way. A full on war ia really a group of much smaller battles. The point being Russia’s military is significant and in the short term would be able to inflict huge damage.

Then there’s escalation. We all find it unthinkable that nukes would ever be fired. But every move that escalated conflict increases the likelihood of someone taking that rash decision under pressure. We’ve seen that leaders are not infallible - as if we didn’t know that anyway - and in the melting pot of politics, arrogance, fear and brashness, consequences become more and more significant.

And yet, you can’t just stand by and let this happen. If Russia thought other super powers would react with force, I highly doubt they would have taken this step. But the more we lead that belief, the stronger that belief gets. The more dictators like Putin feel they can get away with. The more they push that line. And so it starts it’s Ukraine. But where does it stop? When do you say, it’s time to act with force. If not now, when? How many small steps does Putin need to take before it happens. And what happens then?

It’s a fricking impossible situation. I think the real question that people need to answer is what really is Putin’s end game? Not something any of us or maybe anyone would know.

And lost in all of this are the poor people in Ukraine. Whilst all other nations size up their next move, economic or military, trying to predict what will happen in the future and acting in a balanced way based on that, it leaves Ukraine in limbo and the people therein.

It’s pointless to say now, but we are now in an impossible situation with an impossible solution. The mistakes have all happened in the past, which allowed Putin to make this move and put everyone between a rock and a hard place. Can’t be undone now, though, and unfortunately we are now in a position of such heightened tension and emotion that every small move could, with the wrong triggers at the wrong time, have severe global consequences.
 
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The airport battle will definitely be turned into a movie.


I hope this is indeed as written. If so it means that the UA is a bit more competent that a lot of people expected. The availability of AA means they have been smart in using them.
 
We’re less than 24 hours into this, and with war being so unpredictable and with so many potential unintended consequences, I don’t understand how you guys can be so certain in your (conflicting) predictions here?

They're just opinions
 
Great thread. 100% spot on and speaks to my earlier point about having miscalculated.

I mentioned this some days ago wrt the type of weapons the west have been supplying. Like they actually prefer a drawn out insurgency to quick Ukrainian victory.
 
Are you really saying quick takeovers don't happen? They definitely do it's a strange take to get aggressive over.

Your second paragraph is just an invention at this stage. It may happen but let's not start making up predictions of hundreds of thousands civilian bodies lining the streets just yet.

I'm aware some may be from nations that have seen such horrors and I'm sure this is difficult.
No but we are talking this particular war and there are certain circumstances that need to be taken into consideration. For example, ask yourself what would a quick takeover in this particular conflict lead to, how do you think the madman Putin would go on from there? That it would be all peaceful and no more conflicts frome there on? I think you know the answer.

Also it is a long going conflict and they were already invaded in 2014 with over 3k civillians being killed and that was only one territory. Now it's a full scale invasion.
 
We’re less than 24 hours into this, and with war being so unpredictable and with so many potential unintended consequences, I don’t understand how you guys can be so certain in your (conflicting) predictions here?

I’m just making assumptions based upon numbers and precedents set by Russian action followed by Western inaction (Georgia, Syria, Crimea).
 
The US military itself still depends a lot on Windows XP. I know that's not your point re: backdoors, but just came to mind. A lot of advanced stuff by military standards, like a radar capable of tracking hundreds of targets and an associated automated fire control system, might still be running on Windows XP or older OS

https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/why-the-military-cant-quit-windows-xp.html

Whatever they are running...it ain’t gonna be an unoptimised system.
 
The US military itself still depends a lot on Windows XP. I know that's not your point re: backdoors, but just came to mind. A lot of advanced stuff by military standards, like a radar capable of tracking hundreds of targets and an associated automated fire control system, might still be running on Windows XP or older OS

https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/why-the-military-cant-quit-windows-xp.html
Well, we can go back even more and see that stratcom used to use 8inch floppies until very recently. I agree that usually if ain't broke don't fix it, but my supposition is that n..s..a knows a bit more about that system internals.
 
Aye you may be right. Time will tell I suppose. I’m obviously in the minority of wanting human life to be protected here so I shall return to lurking
I don’t really want to get dragged into the conversation but I’ll just say this: unless you’re being purposely obtuse here, as others have pointed out, a swift end might protect human life in the short term but it has no guarantees it protects it in the long term. Nor about what quality of life those lives protected would have. You should rethink your perspective in that context. Even if you don’t think Putin is going to send Ukrainians to death camps (which is an entirely reasonable assumption to make), that isn’t the only way human life is lost at the end game.
 
You've got to worry that today is really just setting the groundwork for the proper offensive tonight and tomorrow. Must be awful for those stuck in the cities knowing their family may very well got caught in the cross fire :(
 
The US military itself still depends a lot on Windows XP. I know that's not your point re: backdoors, but just came to mind. A lot of advanced stuff by military standards, like a radar capable of tracking hundreds of targets and an associated automated fire control system, might still be running on Windows XP or older OS

https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/why-the-military-cant-quit-windows-xp.html

Tbf, it doesn't really matter how old the OS is as long as it's still supported. For a client as big & rich as as the US Military, microsoft would support it for as long they need.

Everyone else - not so much.
 
Well, we can go back even more and see that stratcom used to use 8inch floppies until very recently. I agree that usually if ain't broke don't fix it, but my supposition is that n..s..a knows a bit more about that system internals.

We were always told that the most important thing is not to connect our systems. A destroyers CIC doesn’t need to be particularly secure unless some clown decides to connect his mobile hotspot on it so he can check his email and play a browser game.
 
There are so many angles and takes which all lead to good and bad outcomes. The reality is there isn’t an easy solution to this. Sanctions are great, longer term, but do they do enough right now to make a difference? Each nations economies are so interconnected now too, not to mention things like energy supply, that sanctions have detrimental effects to your own economy too. And on top of all that, sanctions only work if there is a consistent global effort. Countries like China and what role they might play have a significant impact on how effective sanctions would be.

From a military standpoint, I really don’t think it matters if the US and EU have a much more stronger and advanced military than Russia, because sure in the long run that would be important, but war can’t be conceptualised in that way. A full on war ia really a group of much smaller battles. The point being Russia’s military is significant and in the short term would be able to inflict huge damage.

Then there’s escalation. We all find it unthinkable that nukes would ever be fired. But every move that escalated conflict increases the likelihood of someone taking that rash decision under pressure. We’ve seen that leaders are not infallible - as if we didn’t know that anyway - and in the melting pot of politics, arrogance, fear and brashness, consequences become more and more significant.

And yet, you can’t just stand by and let this happen. If Russia thought other super powers would react with force, I highly doubt they would have taken this step. But the more we lead that belief, the stronger that belief gets. The more dictators like Putin feel they can get away with. The more they push that line. And so it starts it’s Ukraine. But where does it stop? When do you say, it’s time to act with force. If not now, when? How many small steps does Putin need to take before it happens. And what happens then?

It’s a fricking impossible situation. I think the real question that people need to answer is what really is Putin’s end game? Not something any of us or maybe anyone would know.

And lost in all of this are the poor people in Ukraine. Whilst all other nations size up their next move, economic or military, trying to predict what will happen in the future and acting in a balanced way based on that, it leaves Ukraine in limbo and the people therein.

It’s pointless to say now, but we are now in an impossible situation with an impossible solution. The mistakes have all happened in the past, which allowed Putin to make this move and put everyone between a rock and a hard place. Can’t be undone now, though, and unfortunately we are now in a position of such heightened tension and emotion that every small move could, with the wrong triggers at the wrong time, have severe global consequences.
Indeed.
 
We’re less than 24 hours into this, and with war being so unpredictable and with so many potential unintended consequences, I don’t understand how you guys can be so certain in your (conflicting) predictions here?
This.

We need to wait and see what happens in the coming days/couple of weeks before we can start making predictions with some confidence. Remember, in 2015 everybody was talking about Russia getting into a quagmire in Syria, but that didn't quite turn out to be the case. It is also too early to know what effect the sanctions could have for sure because for example we don't know yet what China will do in all of this (will the US be able to win China over again? Will China go far in supporting Russia?). We don't even know if Russia will succeed in toppling the government, and if it does how long will that take. Situation is still quite unclear at the moment.
 
Zelenskiy is a brave man. Probably would have had no problem going into exile when the invasion started but so far he's staying.
 
Whilst not condoning Russia in any way, can't help comparing the shelling with America's 'shock and awe' tactics in Baghdad and wondering if it upset people as much as what they're seeing now.

We've done it, so it's a tad hypocritical feeling for the people of Ukraine (which we are, and should be) whilst not having the same emotional response for the Iraquis.
FFS, really? :mad:
 


I don't know how true, but this type of shit is great for the young ones who will have the hard task of fighting for the chance to reform Ukraine many many years into the future.

Hopefully the next Russian president isn't a feckin looney too and can consider giving something back.
 
I think some people expected UA to fold like Afghanistan.

Well it's only been one day and Russia hasn't deployed it's human-rights-violating military tactics such as indiscriminate bombing to its fullest extent yet (although it sounds like this will happen soon). Furthermore, only 30-60k of the 190k forces built up on the border are participating in the fighting right now. The question is can Russia complete their two encirclements or can Ukraine retain the option to conduct orderly tactical retreats, this will likely decide how long the conventional phase of the conflict lasts.
 
If regaining the airport was a great moral boost, the loss of Snake Island was a big blow. Check Zelenskyy’s evening speech, even as a non-speaker.
I'm not sure. Hearing that your fellow countrymen on this small island gave their lives might be more fuel for the Ukrainians to give it all.
 
Zelenskiy is a brave man. Probably would have had no problem going into exile when the invasion started but so far he's staying.

Yea was thinking this myself. He’s gone up in my estimations. Somebody needs to keep him focused though. Ukraine needs a leader not a martyr.
 
You've got to worry that today is really just setting the groundwork for the proper offensive tonight and tomorrow. Must be awful for those stuck in the cities knowing their family may very well got caught in the cross fire :(

Its very much the first wave but I think they've fecked up laying much groundwork. Can't imagine the troops still sat on the border are feeling too great after hearing what has happened so far.
 
If regaining the airport was a great moral boost, the loss of Snake Island was a big blow. Check Zelenskyy’s evening speech, even as a non-speaker.
Is there any other outcome that leads to them not losing that island? I thought it fell into the undefendable category.
 
I’ve seen a few posts here pondering what role China would take here. What is the long term benefit to them to support Russia? My take is that Putin’s Russia is toast - not Russia itself, but Putin’s Russia. There is no way now that things return to normal for them whilst Putin remains. And to that end, unless we think there is a stream of Putin-heirs in the wings, surely it is much better for China to align to the US than Russia. I know there is ideology factors to consider but I’m not sure how much they’d weigh in here. But I’m far from knowledgable on this subject so I’d be very keen to hear other peoples perspective on this.
 
I think some people expected UA to fold like Afghanistan.
They maybe still will get occupied quickly, there’s no guarantee tonight and tomorrow will be anything like today, but that wouldn’t be the end. Nobody should underestimate what Ukrainians are willing to do to maintain independence since Maidan.
 
I’ve seen a few posts here pondering what role China would take here. What is the long term benefit to them to support Russia? My take is that Putin’s Russia is toast - not Russia itself, but Putin’s Russia. There is no way now that things return to normal for them whilst Putin remains. And to that end, unless we think there is a stream of Putin-heirs in the wings, surely it is much better for China to align to the US than Russia. I know there is ideology factors to consider but I’m not sure how much they’d weigh in here. But I’m far from knowledgable on this subject so I’d be very keen to hear other peoples perspective on this.
It's not even clear yet how beneficial it is for the Chinese to take this stance.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2022-02-21/chinas-ukraine-crisis
 
I get the feeling the "big" powers are just going to make shoddy little sanctions, while smaller nations are the ones who actually want to physically help and care. US, UK, France, Germany etc just a bunch of wet lettuces.

Genuine question would you really like to see the US or one of the other major powers go to war with Russia in Europe?
 
Seems inevitable that Ukraine will be taken but the point about what happens next is a fair one.

Assuming Russia don't intend to attack any NATO countries, how do they stop what would presumably be a constant flow of weapons and resources in to Ukranian rebels? The country is bordered by four different NATO countries who will openly or tacitly be in support of insurgents. That seems like a resource-draining mess to occupy indefinitely. And I don't see how Russia leverage their way into occupation being accepted from this point.