Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Real Name said:
So Ukraine started a Russian attack on them? :lol:
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No, and this is critical, Trump's comments are directly saying that a larger power invading a small state is legal and valid. He blames Ukraine for resisting because he believes it's the natural order for the smaller state to be dominated.

Trumps mindset - Russia invades (legal and within their right as a powerful state), Ukraine being invaded (should automatically concede all demands), Resistance by Ukraine (an affront to natural order and thus was the cause of the war).
 
WPMUFC said:
No, and this is critical, Trump's comments are directly saying that a larger power invading a small state is legal and valid. He blames Ukraine for resisting because he believes it's the natural order for the smaller state to be dominated.

Trumps mindset - Russia invades (legal and within their right as a powerful state), Ukraine being invaded (should automatically concede all demands), Resistance by Ukraine (an affront to natural order and thus was the cause of the war).
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Yeah, basically that. Who knows, maybe in a few years Ukraine will cease to exist.
 
Real Name said:
Yeah, basically that. Who knows, maybe in a few years Ukraine will cease to exist.
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If the US and Russia carve up Ukraine, and basically end NATO in the process, Ukraine is going to seem small compared to what will eventually come. Europe is on the brink and Russia will be eyeing off 4-5-6 more states.
 
Isn't this whole thing eerily similar to what happened to Czechoslovakia in the 1930s. They weren't invited to the meeting discussing their future either.
 

'No alternative to eradicating root causes of Ukrainian crisis,' Lavrov says​

Lavrov says 2025 marks 80 years since the end of the second world war as he goes on a rant about “manifestations of neo-nazism” globally, throwing false accusations against Ukraine, the Baltics, and Canada.

Following this aggressive line, he says that “there is no alternative to eradicating the root causes of the Ukrainian crisis,” as he repeatedly accuses Ukraine of a campaign against Russian culture.

No signs of softening his language after yesterday’s talks with the US there.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...ladimir-putin-donald-trump-europe-latest-news

the "root couse of the Ukrainian crisis" is the existence of Ukraine as an independent, sovereign state. It's as simple as that. Russia is going to continually feel emboldened as the US moves more and more to the Russian talking points.
 
utdalltheway said:
Isn't this whole thing eerily similar to what happened to Czechoslovakia in the 1930s. They weren't invited to the meeting discussing their future either.
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From Brittanica's article on the 1938 agreement, this part stood out to me. Same arguments are circling around: "take the US-brokered deal or fight without US aid."
Czechoslovakia was informed by Britain and France that it could either resist Germany alone or submit to the prescribed annexations. The Czechoslovak government chose to submit.
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https://www.britannica.com/event/Munich-Agreement
 
After all it didn't work out well for Czechoslovakia to submit to the German demands.
History should be a warning to the Trump administration that appeasement doesn't work with dictators and mass murderers.
 
Time to start putting heavy sanctions on the US if they are going to become allies with a terrorist state
 
Pexbo said:
Time to start putting heavy sanctions on the US if they are going to become allies with a terrorist state
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:lol: They are allies and fund/arm various nefarious states around the world, this isn't any different.
 
Fenômeno said:
:lol: They are allies and fund/arm various nefarious states around the world, this isn't any different.
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Yeah it was tongue in cheek.

I think it’s inevitable we see the more liberal governments in Europe and further afield forming a coalition to push back and ensure Trump isn’t allowed to facilitate Russia steamrolling through Europe one state at a time though.

The question is how strong can that coalition be if there is enough right wing governments who probably had Russian he’ll being elected are on US side?
 
Smores said:
They got to have some nice photos acting like serious heads of states, that's all it was optics.

I don't buy that Trump has really changed the game all that much. He's publicly stabbing Ukraine in the back whilst they wanted to do it slowly and quietly. They had no plans that wouldn't have seen Ukraine lose territory.

The only difference might be in the security guarantee but were the US ever going to put boots on the ground? Doubt it

Trump's not wrong that the EU needs to stop hiding behind the US.
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Exactly.
 
VorZakone said:
From Brittanica's article on the 1938 agreement, this part stood out to me. Same arguments are circling around: "take the US-brokered deal or fight without US aid."

https://www.britannica.com/event/Munich-Agreement
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Thanks for the link.
B. Munich said:
After all it didn't work out well for Czechoslovakia to submit to the German demands.
History should be a warning to the Trump administration that appeasement doesn't work with dictators and mass murderers.
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It didn't work out too well at all. They lost the sudetenland and shortly after the rest of the country. Just goes to show what happens when you try to make a deal with a tyrant.
 
Pexbo said:
Yeah it was tongue in cheek.

I think it’s inevitable we see the more liberal governments in Europe and further afield forming a coalition to push back and ensure Trump isn’t allowed to facilitate Russia steamrolling through Europe one state at a time though.

The question is how strong can that coalition be if there is enough right wing governments who probably had Russian he’ll being elected are on US side?
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Not going to happen, and not only for political/ideological reasons. Europe/EU has collectively decided to become an unimportant continent, and vassals to the US. 'An open museum' if you would like. Technologically the Europe is far behind, military is far behind, economically it is far behind, innovation being unexistent.

The fact that the EU still needs the US protection to defend itself from a country that has around 10% of EU's GDP tell everything you need to know about the EU.
 
utdalltheway said:
Thanks for the link.

It didn't work out too well at all. They lost the sudetenland and shortly after the rest of the country. Just goes to show what happens when you try to make a deal with a tyrant.
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It didn't work for Czechoslovakia because it was never about Czechoslovakia at all. By appeasing Hitler, France and GB were not trying to save Czechoslovakia, they couldn't give a flying feck about them. They were trying to save themselves.

Czechoslovakia was a mere pawn, just like Ukraine is at the moment. It isn't like either had/have much choice.
 
I need to call my pro Russian friend who was all about USA bad Russia good and how Europe should be stronger and more independent to USA. Wonder what his take will be on all this.
 
Revan said:
Not going to happen, and not only for political/ideological reasons. Europe/EU has collectively decided to become an unimportant continent, and vassals to the US. 'An open museum' if you would like. Technologically the Europe is far behind, military is far behind, economically it is far behind, innovation being unexistent.

The fact that the EU still needs the US protection to defend itself from a country that has around 10% of EU's GDP tell everything you need to know about the EU.
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That’s a bit disingenuous about “needing US protection”. Ukraine is not in the EU so aside from Geography, the US until recently had as much strategic/geopolitical motivation to push Russia back as the EU have.

A strong, imperialistic Russia is a threat to US version of peace in the Middle East and further afield. Russia can be a significant thorn in US side in US-China relations. Then you have the domestic threat Russia posed and they’ve been waging cyber/psychological warfare against the US for years under Putin.

The way this is playing out, I’d fairly confidently say that Putin has won that war against the US and the US is now under his influence, if not control.
 
Let’s not blame Europe for what Trump is doing. What’s happening now is the fault of the United States and many of my compatriots.

I read here that “Europeans should have been ready for this” and that ma y posters in this thread predicted what we see now. Well, many of us indeed thought that Trump wouldn’t be good for Ukraine (nor Gaza), and it seems that we were right. But, do you really think that we here know better than diplomats and European leaders in Paris, London, Berlin, Rome, Madrid, Warsaw and so on? No, we don’t know better.

In places of power, you assign probabilities to different potential outcomes, and you start thinking what would you do if this happens or that happens. Moving too early could be costly sometimes. Europeans knew that this could happen, but they didn’t want to act before Trump makes the first move: if they started to gather, say that the U.S. is not trustworthy, that Trump is going to sell Ukraine, etc. they would give Trump an excuse to say “see, Europe is this, Europe is that, they don’t respect the votes of Americans, blah blah blah” and then he would decide not to involve the Europeans in the negotiations process. Of course, that’s what he ended up doing anyway, but Europeans didn’t give him the excuse. Now, though, they can act with the feeling that their moves/statements are justified.

European leaders basically hoped that Trump would do better than what he’s doing now. They gave that some probability, even if low. Strategically, you can’t ignore this option, even if the probability is low, certainly when it involves an 80-year old alliance like NATO and a man with the temperament of Trump.

Finally, what exactly and practically should the Europeans have done in the 2.5 months between the election of Trump and his inauguration? Build a European army? Send Troops to Ukraine? Insult the U.S. and U.S. voters? Pass laws to increase defense spending to 5% of GDP in the middle of a period high debt? I didn’t get a clear answer here about what they should’ve done since November (or even since the Spring if they thought that Trump could win).

The Europeans were put in a tough position, and I don’t blame them. The question now is how they are going to act moving forward. That’s the real test.
 
Wonder how the military and intelligence in US is looking at this. USA practically succumbing to Russia and their demands. Or is everything under Trump control already.
 
makes you wonder what many of the older Mmerican generals must be thinking? seeing their leadership being pulled on strings by the kremlin...
 
Superden said:
makes you wonder what many of the older Mmerican generals must be thinking? seeing their leadership being pulled on strings by the kremlin...
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American media are so concerned with trying to figure out the "hidden reasons for moves of Trump" that they never bother to ask if maybe they should be doing something about it.
 
Pexbo said:
That’s a bit disingenuous about “needing US protection”. Ukraine is not in the EU so aside from Geography, the US until recently had as much strategic/geopolitical motivation to push Russia back as the EU have.

A strong, imperialistic Russia is a threat to US version of peace in the Middle East and further afield. Russia can be a significant thorn in US side in US-China relations. Then you have the domestic threat Russia posed and they’ve been waging cyber/psychological warfare against the US for years under Putin.

The way this is playing out, I’d fairly confidently say that Putin has won that war against the US and the US is now under his influence, if not control.
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Sadly, I do agree. And I still find it weird that people don’t and didn’t focus more on how obvious it is that Putin has Trump in his bag, for decades now. Trump is basically doing everything Putin could ask for. The US might genuinely be under the control of Russia and no one in the US seems to care.
 
Lemoor said:
American media are so concerned with trying to figure out the "hidden reasons for moves of Trump" that they never bother to ask if maybe they should be doing something about it.
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They are doing what they are supposed to do: enriching their owners. Everything else doesn’t really matter.
 
Superden said:
makes you wonder what many of the older Mmerican generals must be thinking? seeing their leadership being pulled on strings by the kremlin...
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Yeah unfortunately with the message Trump is sending about being able to completely erase and destroy someone s reputation without much retort like a Vindman (I know, not a general but still high ranking) and a Milley (absolutely disgraceful what they've done to that guy too), even the higher military ranks are probably scared.

Someone like a Petraeus has been vocal about these issues before but even he has been fairly quiet and arguably even seems to have bent the knee.
 
HTG said:
Sadly, I do agree. And I still find it weird that people don’t and didn’t focus more on how obvious it is that Putin has Trump in his bag, for decades now. Trump is basically doing everything Putin could ask for. The US might genuinely be under the control of Russia and no one in the US seems to care.
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The thing I’m interested in is whether the billionaire media moguls who are all backing Trump give any sort of feck that he’s controlled by Putin which itself is going to have enormous economic repercussions.
 
Lemoor said:
True, Trump potentially being angry at their owner does absolve them of any responsibility.
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Not arguing this. They are complicit. Even if they are under economical pressure. But they are working and doing their jobs according to what their bosses want them to. Huge parts of the media, especially in the US, are not on the side of the people.
 
HTG said:
Not arguing this. They are complicit. Even if they are under economical pressure. But they are working and doing their jobs according to what their bosses want them to. Huge parts of the media, especially in the US, are not on the side of the people.
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Yea, putting individual blame is very tricky when there is a very obvious negative selection going on and if they don't do that there are always less scrupulous people waiting to be promoted to that place.
 
Pexbo said:
The thing I’m interested in is whether the billionaire media moguls who are all backing Trump give any sort of feck that he’s controlled by Putin which itself is going to have enormous economic repercussions.
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I keep wondering that, too. I believe some are aware and do believe they can benefit from all this, so they don’t really care.
Others might be in denial and didn’t expect things to turn out like this and thought supporting Trump would lead to less regulation and that’s about it. Those are in for quite a shock.
 
Lemoor said:
Yea, putting individual blame is very tricky when there is a very obvious negative selection going on and if they don't do that there are always less scrupulous people waiting to be promoted to that place.
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Yep. It is really difficult. When is the line crossed to the point that they are creating more harm than they are alleviating? I started wondering how I react if the AfD ever get into power. I work for the government after all. It’s a scary thought and I hope I will never face decisions this tough. I feel for the reasonable people in the media who still have a conscience.
 
HTG said:
I keep wondering that, too. I believe some are aware and do believe they can benefit from all this, so they don’t really care.
Others might be in denial and didn’t expect things to turn out like this and thought supporting Trump would lead to less regulation and that’s about it. Those are in for quite a shock.
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Will they be tho? These are individuals who can completely isolate themselves from the trials and tribulations of the average person so you have to wonder how much they really care in the end. To paraphrase a Game of Thrones quote: they would burn the world down if they can be kings of the ashes.
 
At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if trump doesn't get a deal he likes, if he simply decided to invade the non-occupied part of Ukraine to protect US interest.
 
B. Munich said:
The US wants the precious Ukraine resources, especially the rare earths and other metals, which they desperately need for their chip industries.

Probably, Trump now realized most of the exploration sites these are located in the Donbass under Russian control.

I'm worried he will now just make a deal with Putin. Putin gets his oblasts and territories and Trump gets hands on the resources in the territories.


He will be gone in a week.
Unfortunately, Trump and the bunch of idiots are doing everything to ensure Merz doesn't have the majority to revert Scholz's politics.
The US wants a weak Europe, under Trump they are as much our enemies as China.


The EU security guaranties are even stronger than article 5.
If Russia attacked a member state, the other states would join to fight of Russia. And if one of them is a NATO state (which most of the EU counties are) the NATO will be involved. No idea what's the logic behind Putin's thoughts here.
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Putin's logic (or gamble) is that the US won't meet it's article 5 requirements, Trump has floated this notion multiple times in the past
 
Bosnian_fan said:
It didn't work for Czechoslovakia because it was never about Czechoslovakia at all. By appeasing Hitler, France and GB were not trying to save Czechoslovakia, they couldn't give a flying feck about them. They were trying to save themselves.

Czechoslovakia was a mere pawn, just like Ukraine is at the moment. It isn't like either had/have much choice.
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The 2021 movie about the Munich meeting covered that quite well.
Still, it's quite maddening to think we're at this point again.
 
Bosnian_fan said:
It didn't work for Czechoslovakia because it was never about Czechoslovakia at all. By appeasing Hitler, France and GB were not trying to save Czechoslovakia, they couldn't give a flying feck about them. They were trying to save themselves.

Czechoslovakia was a mere pawn, just like Ukraine is at the moment. It isn't like either had/have much choice.
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I'm sure they did give a feck, they were just being realistic, they knew they couldn't stop the Germans, the reality is that if Britain and France had tried to intervene most of Europe would probably be speaking German now
 
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