Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[VorZakone]

Thank you for your honest answer.

If you want me to justify the full scale military invasion on 2022 I won't and I can't. That is an act of escalation and aggression. If you want me to justify some of the attacks on civillians, again I won't and I can't. I do not support war (in most instances).

At the same time I do not see ourselves as an innocent bystander putting Ukraines best interests at heart who has only got involved to protect another nations soverignity.

I do think there is minority support for Russia, mostly in the South and East. I imagine there was majority support for Zelensky at the beginning of the conflict. Right now I imagine there's a lot of loss of morale and war fatigue and I sympathise with that.
Like it or not Ukraine isn't going to win this war. Yes we can escalate and shoot missiles deeper into Russia - great news for Zelensky in his bunker. But who suffers when Russia escalates in return? Ukranian civillians. Who is dying on the battlefield? Ukranian civillians. There are some out there who don't wish to fight but are being forced to fight and for what? So nato can damage Russia "without losing nato blood"? (Something someone said here earlier). These are human beings with lives, families, children, homes. They aren't disposable and so the solution is negotiations. Not using Ukranian lives as fuel for "damaging russias economy a bit more" or whatever other excuse for more bloodshed after bloodshed.

I did rationale the Istanbul Communique because if I was a Ukranian who has lived through the last 2 and a half years. I think I'd be looking back on that and wishing we signed that agreement. As I imagine my life in Ukraine despite its problems was probably worth much more than dying a hero with the knowledge I put it to putin. And the reward for finally winning. Not our jobs or businesses back. Foreign western investors who now own everything. So you fight in the trenches and your reward is that your still Ukraine by name but now most of the stuff is owned by people outside Ukraine? So because its people from everywhere but Russia, that means its worth the sacrifice?

When I say I'm anti war its because I analyse things through a more human perspective and maybe at not such a high level. I don't view it as a game of command and conquer on the PC. I view it as people like you and I dying, not because we personally don't get along with the people we are fighting, but because our leaders don't like eachother.

I sympathize with the humanity. I don't pretend I know the answers either. Ukraine is in an extremely tough spot and the trend is not looking too great. A famous example that crossed my mind is Finland's Winter War which eventually resulted in Finland ceding some territory to the Soviet Union. That territory today is still part of Russia. And I'm sure there are a variety of opinions among Ukrainians on how to end the war.

I do find some of your framing rather weird. I actually struggle to explain it. Do you look at every conflict in the sense of "why are you sacrificing and fighting, your country might get bought by (Western) foreign investors so what's the point"?
Ukrainian resistance against the invader is not unique. Many peoples and countries fought back against an invader. People fight for freedom, sovereignty, things like that.

I mean, sure, it is a valid point to ask how the rebuilding of Ukraine would look like but the same goes for how the rebuilding of Gaza would look like or any other warzone.

 

[VorZakone]

If they didn't want to fight morale would be extremely low and I doubt they would have held the Russians off for this long. Although, I do think we are getting there slowly from reports I've been reading. But at this moment they are still fighting.

Morale is also partially dependent on outside help. I try to regularly read and listen (with English subs) what Ukrainian soldiers are saying. One noticeable frustration was the level of restriction placed on Western weapons. They say they're fighting with one hand tied behind their back. But when they get news about new weapon shipments and new permissions, it tends to do well for morale.

One other aspect of frustration among Ukrainian troops is precisely this topic of dodging and a sense of being forgotten by people in the big cities. They have been at the front for a very long time and want time off but there aren't enough replacements.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[ExoduS]

couple of days ago my friend showed me some videos of UKR army forces basically kidnaping men and forcing them to join the army, literally dragging them in front of their wives and children. man, that's some scary sight.

you really have to ask what's the point then. your own country is dragging you like a worthless piece of shit in the dust to die on the battlefield without any right to choose, yet it's also selling you "democracy & freedom", things being endangered by the enemy.

how motivated can such guy be? he's basically being murdered by his own side. how much worse can enemy look in his eyes in those moments?

Dying for democracy is an honor. I have few friends who went to fight for Ukraine (as mercenaries from USA). They weren't on the front lines, but they were deep enough to say "f this." They came back quickly as they realized this isn't like hunting terrorists in the middle east. One found and brought back a gorgeous Ukrainian wife. So the trip was well worth it.

 

[Vitro]

Thank you for your honest answer.

If you want me to justify the full scale military invasion on 2022 I won't and I can't. That is an act of escalation and aggression. If you want me to justify some of the attacks on civillians, again I won't and I can't. I do not support war (in most instances).

At the same time I do not see ourselves as an innocent bystander putting Ukraines best interests at heart who has only got involved to protect another nations soverignity.

I do think there is minority support for Russia, mostly in the South and East. I imagine there was majority support for Zelensky at the beginning of the conflict. Right now I imagine there's a lot of loss of morale and war fatigue and I sympathise with that.
Like it or not Ukraine isn't going to win this war. Yes we can escalate and shoot missiles deeper into Russia - great news for Zelensky in his bunker. But who suffers when Russia escalates in return? Ukranian civillians. Who is dying on the battlefield? Ukranian civillians. There are some out there who don't wish to fight but are being forced to fight and for what? So nato can damage Russia "without losing nato blood"? (Something someone said here earlier). These are human beings with lives, families, children, homes. They aren't disposable and so the solution is negotiations. Not using Ukranian lives as fuel for "damaging russias economy a bit more" or whatever other excuse for more bloodshed after bloodshed.

I did rationale the Istanbul Communique because if I was a Ukranian who has lived through the last 2 and a half years. I think I'd be looking back on that and wishing we signed that agreement. As I imagine my life in Ukraine despite its problems was probably worth much more than dying a hero with the knowledge I put it to putin. And the reward for finally winning. Not our jobs or businesses back. Foreign western investors who now own everything. So you fight in the trenches and your reward is that your still Ukraine by name but now most of the stuff is owned by people outside Ukraine? So because its people from everywhere but Russia, that means its worth the sacrifice?

When I say I'm anti war its because I analyse things through a more human perspective and maybe at not such a high level. I don't view it as a game of command and conquer on the PC. I view it as people like you and I dying, not because we personally don't get along with the people we are fighting, but because our leaders don't like eachother.

I understand you want to limit human suffering. It’s not only Ukrainians who are dying, it’s also Russians, many conscripted against their will.

When a country acts like Russia has don’t you think they need to be resisted rather than succumbed to? Do you think they’ll just stop with Crimea and the Donbas, and will show no further aggression in the future? If the belligerent country is rewarded for their belligerence, will they stop; historically is that what Putin has done?

Rather than pressuring Ukraine to fold couldn’t the West have done more to stop Russia, e.g. more military aid, more diplomacy; why are you not in support of that? Is Russia so strong (a country that’s hasn’t managed to defeat Ukraine in 2+ years), the combined might of the US and Europe are powerless to stop them? The reason proponents of a Ukrainian surrender are not taken seriously is because they support a might is right philosophy, but seem to conveniently ignore the “might” they are talking about is Russia, a country with an economy the size of Italy. They are a nothing, and pretending otherwise and taking seriously their threats of red lines and nuclear escalation for the last decade has done nothing but incentivised further Russian aggression.

 

[Beans]

Hear hear.

If Ukraine loses, those Ukrainian soldiers are forced to join the Russian army, and then next is Moldova and the Balkans. It's fight them or fight for them. Any cease fire will only give Russia time to build up equipment.

 

[ExoduS]

Hear hear.

If Ukraine loses, those Ukrainian soldiers are forced to join the Russian army, and then next is Moldova and the Balkans. It's fight them or fight for them. Any cease fire will only give Russia time to build up equipment.

Really? What are Russians gonna do to those soldiers? Reprogram them? What I am trying to understand how is Russia at the same time incompetent and also threat to entire Europe. It goes something like this:
- Russians are stupid and incompetent. This thing not gonna last long before they give up.
- Russians are threat to rest of Europe, send more weapons. Ukrainians are dying but Russians are dying too so let's keep escalating this until end of time - maybe literary.

I have nothing against the argument that Ukraine should be supported to protect a young democracy which strives to end corruption and adopt western values. I disagree with the methods and tools being used to archive those goals, but it is a logical and sound argument. The notion that Russia will continue to go west if the war ends tomorrow is ridiculous.

As far as Balkan goes, I am gonna speak for Serbia only: Don't threaten us with the good time.

 

[VorZakone]

Really? What are Russians gonna do to those soldiers? Reprogram them? What I am trying to understand how is Russia at the same time incompetent and also threat to entire Europe. It goes something like this:
- Russians are stupid and incompetent. This thing not gonna last long before they give up.
- Russians are threat to rest of Europe, send more weapons. Ukrainians are dying but Russians are dying too so let's keep escalating this until end of time - maybe literary.

I have nothing against the argument that Ukraine should be supported to protect a young democracy which strives to end corruption and adopt western values. I disagree with the methods and tools being used to archive those goals, but it is a logical and sound argument. The notion that Russia will continue to go west if the war ends tomorrow is ridiculous.

As far as Balkan goes, I am gonna speak for Serbia only: Don't threaten us with the good time.

A flipside to the "they are X and Y at the same time" gimmick is this:
- Why all this hysteria about invading Poland or another NATO country? Putin is too rational for that.
- Putin will start nuclear war.

Rational enough not to attack beyond Ukraine but irrational enough to risk suicide by throwing nukes around.

Am I doing this wrong?

For what it's worth, I don't think Putin would invade a NATO country and I also don't think the world is going to end with WW3.

 

[OmgTheyKilkenny]

Dude we already have one professional troll taking care of us here. This place isn't big enough for the both of you!

Please refer back to point [1] of my post, you appear to have (totally intentionally) skipped it. We can't have reasoned debate with that sort of behaviour! Nor can I move on to your points.

I don't think @VorZakone is trolling mate (I'm joking), and neither am I.

I've answered nearly every question directed my way.

I'm not really sure what the point in your question was to be honest. Are you contesting the appetite for Crimeans to join Russia? Following Ukranian independence there was significant separist movements in Crimea. Following Orange Revolution there were separist movements. In response to Euromaiden there was antimaiden protests...

The correlation between all of the above is that they tended to occur after divisive political issues. Any idea of any which occurred prior to the Crimean annexation? Any idea of any laws criticised by the Venice Commission, OSCE and Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group which also may have pushed separatism.

 

[harms]

At the same time I do not see ourselves as an innocent bystander putting Ukraines best interests at heart who has only got involved to protect another nations soverignity.

Does anyone here believe that countries in general act in external politics according to their altruistic inner voice? That's literally the opposite of what external politics is. It doesn't really matters why they are supporting Ukraine as long as they do.

 

[ExoduS]

A flipside to the "they are X and Y at the same time" gimmick is this:
- Why all this hysteria about invading Poland or another NATO country? Putin is too rational for that.
- Putin will start nuclear war.

Rational enough not to attack beyond Ukraine but irrational enough to risk suicide by throwing nukes around.

Am I doing this wrong?

For what it's worth, I don't think Putin would invade a NATO country and I also don't think the world is going to end with WW3.

I have no clue how Putin thinks or what he will do. I think he will not attack Poland because it is not in their strategic interest to control Poland. Ukraine on another hand, as expressed by Putin, is of vital interest to Russia. I am not arguing morality behind it. There is rarely a good reason to bring troops to another country uninvited. The reality is that Russia wants access to the Black Sea and as it stands right now - they got it. The time is to negotiate before this conflict truly gets out of hand.

 

[Mavs]

Really? What are Russians gonna do to those soldiers? Reprogram them?

Russia is already forcing Ukrainian men from the occupied territory into the army. Through torture and detainment and as you put it reprogramming via propaganda. The longer the occupation remains and specially if a peace deal is made allowing Russia to keep those territories for good, the population is theirs to control (or transfer into Russia). See Chechnya.

 

[OmgTheyKilkenny]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/19/world/europe/ukraine-troop-fatigue.html

Thank you for proving my point.

On November 19, the Kyiv Court of Appeals upheld a decision to keep Serhiy Hnezdilov, a soldier of the 56th Separate Motorized Infantry Mariupol Brigade, in custody. Hnezdilov faces charges of going AWOL.

The court rejected his appeal against a pretrial detention order issued by the Pechersk District Court in Kyiv, meaning Hnezdilov will remain in custody for 60 days without the possibility of bail.

The embittered soldier said he was planning to challenge the verdict adding it would make him go on hunger strike unless Ukraine’s defense ministry comes up with a bill addressing demobilization procedures. He added he was ready to return to service if the proposed legislation is passed.

On October 11, the court ordered the detention of Hnezdilov after he publicly admitted to leaving his military unit. Hnezdilov argued that he was trying to draw attention to the situation when there are no clear policy for when and how soldiers can be demobilized.

In his statements, Hnezdilov vented his frustration over the burden infantry troops face in combat zones while many other Ukrainian men dodge the military service using different schemes like fake medical exemptions. He also spoke about the mental and physical exhaustion among soldiers, calling out Ukrainians on the home front of their failure to share the responsibility.

Hnezdilov’s case has sparked debate about the strain on military personnel and calls for reforms in Ukraine’s mobilization and service policies.

Source- https://bukvy.org/en/soldier-serhiy...amid-controversy-over-military-service-terms/


Given what's happened to Serhiy since he spoke out. Do you think many other Ukranians will speak out now?

 

[VorZakone]

Thank you for proving my point.



Source- https://bukvy.org/en/soldier-serhiy...amid-controversy-over-military-service-terms/


Given what's happened to Serhiy since he spoke out. Do you think many other Ukranians will speak out now?

Your question was:
"Have you ever seen the western media show any perspectives of Ukranians who are critical of Zelensky or the war?"

I provided examples. How Ukrainians respond to what happened to that soldier is irrelevant to your question about Western media.